First, I have to say I do not work for this company in any way, in fact I'm not employed, but I have just recieved some great customer sevice, for the second time, From Eemax, inc.
This household water heater is the shiznit, I can't begin to express my satisfaction.
For those who aren't familiar, this kind of water heater has no tank, and heats water on demand instantly. It's size will fool you, 12" x12" x3" deep.
Since it heats only the water as you use it, and doesn't store (maintain) hot water, the electric savings are huge! My house is all electric, and I have noticed a 40.00 per month difference in my bill. This is after using the product for about 20 months now.
I used to stay in the shower until it started getting cold, but now we NEVER run out of hot water. Plus there is no tank to corrode, and all internal tubing-element housings, are plastic
I have only had 2 problems with it, both self induced from the dreaded washing machine drain hose spraying into the box.
I told the co. I thought it was my fault ( caused relays to stick, elements burned), they shipped 3 elements,free of charge, without even laughing at me. now just recently the first controller board is intermittent, took 1 minute on phone,they are shipping new board, again free . Yes this unit is user sevicable.
There are some drawbacks, but they are install issues. The unit requires 120A 220V service to a sub panel with 3 40A 220v circuits. The unit cost 800.00 and the wiring wasn't cheap, but if you are under new construction or remodeling, this is a must have in my opinion.
I'm posting this because too often, all we hear, are negative comments, I believe we need to share more positive.

This is a Made in usa product with no equal in my opinion.

The unit requires 120A 220V service to a sub panel with 3 40A 220v circuits. The unit cost 800.00 and the wiring wasn't cheap,

I've got all-electric in my house too. Winter elec bill can be 2.5x higher than a spring or fall bill, too.

I don't know much about those on-demand water heaters, but good info.
Why do they require so many 220 circuits? I can see adding 1 separate 220 circuit but 4 total?? Those things must need some juice, when they are activated...

Does the unit sit in the same place where a normal water heater would?

Rick. it hangs on the wall in same location..yeah
As for electrical, to take the panel space (main panel) of original wter heater, you install a 125 double pole, and pull some BIG A$$ wire to the heater location. there you install a 6 circuit ( 3 double pole 40a breaker) sub panel with a seperate circuit for each heater element. That way if one element or circuit fails, there is a backup
put it this way it has a temp rise of 96 degrees at 3.5 gallons per minute.
if one cicuit is off, you'll get 96 degrees at 2 gallons per minute ( still enough for showrer.) If incoming water is 50 deg, then full power output temp is 146 degrees(hot)
So, when it's running, you can watch circuits come on and off as needed to maintain your dialed in temp, depending on flow.
2 showers at once will give colder output, and the more you turn up hot flow, just cools it off( kind of a re learning process) but it's not a great problem.
here is a good drawing of units guts showing how to hook to mains
and instructions on element replacement, to show how easy it is.
The main enemy is a air bubble in the line, as you can guess.

shoot try again

Luckily our power panel is very close to our water heater. Pulling wire to it woudn't be a problem at all. Now I can't wait for our water heater to die :D

Think of the electricity used, and pollution created, while that dying water heater heats water while you sleep, and it isn't needed at all.
That might help you talk the wife into it.
Rhett, does the electric company that serves you know you are all electric? Mine gives us a discount normal = 9.55 cents per KWH
all electric resident discount = 8.67 cents per KWH
I did have to call them on it, and my property has NEVER had a gas line on it.

Our water heater is electric. Our power comes from a nuke plant and hydro-electric plants so... no pollution, but I have always disliked the idea of keeping a huge tank of water hot 24/7... I need to look into solar before I do this. In AZ I believe solar hot water would be an ideal solution.

this is why you need an auxillary panel near unit

Do the lights dim in your neighborhood when that thing kicks in :D

Our water heater is electric. Our power comes from a nuke plant and hydro-electric plants so... no pollution, but I have always disliked the idea of keeping a huge tank of water hot 24/7... I need to look into solar before I do this. In AZ I believe solar hot water would be an ideal solution.
Very good idea. But would it keep up?
I take long showers

Do the lights dim in your neighborhood when that thing kicks in :D
Um now that you mention it, If you fill the bathtub ( max flow we ever use) the lights flicker a bit. It does use power. I'm all electric with a 225 main service, and a 125 just for hot water. Cool huh?
But I'd say it only runs for about 1.5 hr a day average total, then it does nothing.
I'd like to get one for my garage. I have a bathroom- shower with a coventional cabinet water heater out there. it is off unless i plan on cleaning up after a thrash, then i switch it on
It would cost too much to justify though, as my garage would need larger service.

I have heard great things about the Bosch tankless (gas) as well. It also usually needs its 'power' to be beefed up as well, requiring a 3/4" gas line vs. the standard 1/2". I was thinking electric would be an easier install, but 120A/220V is a lot of power. I think the main breaker for our house is only 120A :eek:

I have heard great things about the Bosch tankless (gas) as well. It also usually needs its 'power' to be beefed up as well, requiring a 3/4" gas line vs. the standard 1/2". I was thinking electric would be an easier install, but 120A/220V is a lot of power. I think the main breaker for our house is only 120A :eek:
Yeah, I just looked to refresh memory, it uses 28 kilowatts full flow

Yeah, I just looked to refresh memory, it uses 28 kilowatts full flow

[Doc (Dr. Emmet Brown from Back to the Furure) voice on] One point twenty-one jiggawatts!??! Great Scott!!?!!? [/voice]

LOL

28,000 watts?!!??!!? Holy frejoles!!! that's un-real!! And people thought I was crazy for buying a 3Hp blender!!

I've been looking into tankless heaters, but the costs don't outweigh the benefits for me. I honestly never considered electric because I already have an electric tank, and wanted to go back to gas and tankless. The problems I've found are thus:

I don't want a standing pilot. I want automatic ignition, even when the power is out. No problem,

The only way to get that feature (because I have to vent horizontally) is with a forced-vent system, which means, no electricity => no forced vent => no hot water.

OK, let's go for one with a standing pilot: That means I have to vent vertically through the roof. Well, I have no chimney, and am not about to put one up through the middle of the living room (the utility room is under the living room), so scratch that plan.

I'm caught in the vicious loop.... it does not look good for me at this point.

Now, couple all those problems with the additional cost. The ones I would want ( to feed two showerheads) I'm looking at about $1200 for the unit and all the hardware. Next, it needs to be installed and inspected, costing me another $200 for the inspections. (I have an uncle in the business, so labor costs a case of his favorite beer) Now, compare that to $400 for a pretty decent 50 gallon tank which can actually be piggy-backed on the electric one (if I wanted to) and can vent through the side wall without the forced vent, and we're talking business. I'm not sure if I'd see any significant savings in gas over electric anymore with the cost of natural gas going through the roof though.

So, let's look at the electric one here.... I think the cost of the wire alone to run from my service panel to my utility room 75 feet away would kill me by itself!! Probably take ma a loooong time to recoup the cost of the wire alone at $40/month, and I'm not planning on being here forever (maybe another 5 years), so it's probably not a worthwhile investment for me.

-Joe

I got the replacement circuit board a few days ago, free of charge. Even though my back is killing me I couldn't stand being totally worthless so I replaced it. Here is a picture of the guts. Pliers on top to show size.

Well the saga continues
I refrained from posting while we had cold water---yes it blew a element again. Cold showers made it a touchy subject at the time.
Isn't it funny how quickly you can wash under cold water???

I found a hairline crack in the burned element's tube, which caused it to slowly develop an air bubble.
The phone call this time was even better. 2 rings, same guy who answered sent out a whole new unit. They have redesigned it to incorporate a delay relay, so water flows for a split second before elements kick on. The new unit is 3 inches wider to accomidate the relays.

The hardest part of the install was pulling the huge bundle of wires back out of the romex clamp. Took about 30 minutes to swap out.

And
I still have the old unit.
It has been 3 weeks now, working fine. The only difference in operation is a semi loud click when you turn hot water on.

We'll see if this one stands up, but once again the customer service was outstanding!!

Damn Jon, I'm going to start calling you Tim Allen. Seems like everything you modify comes back to haunt you. :D

... I need to look into solar before I do this. In AZ I believe solar hot water would be an ideal solution.

In the mid '80s there was a tax credit offered for solar power and I worked for a company that installed solar water heaters. It worked great in Texas and drastically cut electric bills (water heaters use more energy than anything else besides the HVAC). I think you couldn't go wrong doing that in AZ. I'd even look into doing it before your heater goes out since you'd save more than enough to cover the cost anyway; the sooner you get one the sooner you'll start saving money.

Are you using pvc for water in your house?

Are you using pvc for water in your house?

No
It is all copper, save for the 5 foot run from this heater to where the original heater was
The fittings off the heater are all plastic, and since it had to be lowest in line, I said what the heck, and scabbed it in.

I am using pvc in my garage shower supply, the rest is copper.

Just wondering... what's your 'normal' electric bill and do you know how it compared to a regular 40-gal hot water tank?

Just wondering... what's your 'normal' electric bill and do you know how it compared to a regular 40-gal hot water tank?


We were averaging 220+ per month. Since we are all electric, summer hits us hardest. so far this year, our highest was august, which was 193.47

Least expensive month this year was may 97.21

I would say in summer this unit saves about 15-20 per month, and in winter about 25-30 per month.

However, we also replaced windows-added vinyl siding to upper floor(brick lower floor) and added isulation to the attic. This saved us quite a bit during winter. To contrast again though, we also removed the wood stove heat, and added efficient wall furnaces in each room, individually controlled.
because of this, I attribute quite a bit of the difference to the water heater,as heating water will be about 40-50 percent of energy.

To give yourself an idea, or really just to save, try this,

Get a 220v timer, turn water heater off for the hours you know it will not be used, set it to switch on about 1/2 hr before you wake. This will save you many $$$

I thought about that, but on a bad month, my electric bill is $130. (Averages about $130 in the summer with the AC running, $70-80 in the spring and fall, and maybe $100 in the wintertime) I'm a single guy and live alone, so the majority of my usage is the fridge, deep freezer, hot water, and the PC on 24/7. Of course, there's also the two aquarium filters, the TiVo and cable box, and other assorted power packs and battery back-ups... If I shut all the completely unnecessary junk off when I left, it would take me an extra hour to reboot everything when I get home! :)

-Joe

Our water heater is electric. Our power comes from a nuke plant and hydro-electric plants so... no pollution, but I have always disliked the idea of keeping a huge tank of water hot 24/7... I need to look into solar before I do this. In AZ I believe solar hot water would be an ideal solution.


Years ago I noticed our electric meter was spinning like crazy. I had nothing on, so i thought that would pull that much electric. Found it was the electric hot water heater. Now this was in the middle of the day, and no one was home other then me. And I had not been using hot water? Narrowed it down to the thermostate calling for heat in the hot water tank. Hmmm. Went to Lowes and bought a hot water timer so now it only comes on two times a day. In the morning and afternoon. Now you can set it for as many times as you nees depending on your needs. It was the single most cost saving item I ever bought. I think this should be mandatory on all heaters. My bill went down $70+ for a two month periond.
.
Think about it. Why would most people want their heater to come on couple times a night or in the middle of the day when your not even home. If you come home at 6 pm have it set to turn on at 5 and maybe shut off at 9 pm and them back on an hour before you get up.

Hmmm. But on the other hand, how much energy does it take to reheat the water again? I would think that a well-insulated hot water heater would possibly use less electricity to maintain the water at the same temp once it got hot, than to pay to heat it up, then let it cool down, then reheat it again. Maybe?

Note that I wrote "well-insulated" and "possibly" so it's just a thought. It would make a good experiment anyway, if someone could isolate the electric usage both ways and see what the difference was. Sounds like you found out that it's more efficient to turn it on and off, at least for your application.

If somebody want to try this, I have a good INTERMATIC 220v timer
25.00 plus ship and it's yours. It will hard wire in line. It was the thing that convinced me to go tankless.

Hmmm. But on the other hand, how much energy does it take to reheat the water again? I would think that a well-insulated hot water heater would possibly use less electricity to maintain the water at the same temp once it got hot, than to pay to heat it up, then let it cool down, then reheat it again. Maybe?

Note that I wrote "well-insulated" and "possibly" so it's just a thought. It would make a good experiment anyway, if someone could isolate the electric usage both ways and see what the difference was. Sounds like you found out that it's more efficient to turn it on and off, at least for your application.

Thanks for reminding me. I also wrapped the tank even though it had good insullation on the inside and then the exposed lines in the basement. I used that cell foam that has a split the whole length of insulation.

The water coming out of the tank is the hottest compared to any other pipe in the house. Did any PVC joints ever leak?

The water coming out of the tank is the hottest compared to any other pipe in the house. Did any PVC joints ever leak?
If you are asking me--

First-the fittings coming off of the new unit are solid brass compression nuts, the original had plastic fittings adapted to glued fittings, which seemed like they may have indeed been leaking. We never saw water on the floor, or wall . Plastic pipe is used for obvious reasons.

This may have led to the demise of the original, allowing the air bubble in.
This new unit is still performing flawlessly. In fact, even with cold winter water (which it has to heat), it will still scald you in the shower.

subscribing for future referance

any updates on the tankless system ? I have been told they have a tough time keeping up. My water heater is ready to go up and I am considering the tanless system but am not yet convinsed.

any updates on the tankless system ? I have been told they have a tough time keeping up. My water heater is ready to go up and I am considering the tanless system but am not yet convinsed.

It is performing well, I think the redesign was the key.
The only drawback, is the noise from the relays, which turn in steps as needed for 160 degree output depending on flow rate.
All three will activate when shower or bathtub is used--

It isn't bad--but the clicking is there-just so you know.

one click when turned on, another when turned off.

I too am looking into this. Just bought a house and the water heater is 21 years old. Due in for a replacement. The good news is every thing is in the basement. The water heater is all of 15 feet from the pannel.

I would be currious as to its performance on days like today. It has not gone above freezing for over a week. Usually hovering around the teens and twentys. The water coming in must be very cold. We have two showers on the upstairs level. I wonder if two people can take a nice long hot shower under these conditions.

Is the electrical savings still significant ? Some of the post here made me think that system can consume quite a bit of electricity.

I too am looking into this. Just bought a house and the water heater is 21 years old. Due in for a replacement. The good news is every thing is in the basement. The water heater is all of 15 feet from the pannel.

I would be currious as to its performance on days like today. It has not gone above freezing for over a week. Usually hovering around the teens and twentys. The water coming in must be very cold. We have two showers on the upstairs level. I wonder if two people can take a nice long hot shower under these conditions.

Is the electrical savings still significant ? Some of the post here made me think that system can consume quite a bit of electricity.


Our main bath has a dual shower head with 4 wall sprayers--and it has been very cold here.
I would assume 2 single head showers could run just fine--

Well, Friday night my wife turned on the shower, and BAMMM!
The wall furnaces shut off, half of our outlets went dead. All 220 appliances were a no go.
When I checked the service lines, I found one leg was dead. Westar had us up and running in 2 hours, the safety breaker at pole had melted.
Funny, our 225 main has never tripped--

Wow that thing uses a lot of power!

I was thinking about this the other day- As a part of new construction, depending on house design, you could put a smaller version of these at key points near hot water use. Only one water line would have to be run, as water would be heated on site. You'd have instant hot water, less plumbing runs, lower utility bills. The cost savings of running roughly 1/2" the pipes (expensive if all copper) would offset the costs of the heaters. I don't know what they cost, but a lower GPM model would be needed at each site- say 2-4 units for an average 3br 2ba house. I think if I ever get to build a house, I will do this.

If your doing new construction, I would not run copper lines, I would run PEX, and do a home run design.

Also, 1/2" pipe is too small to feed a bathroom. You need 3/4" into the bathroom, then 1/2" reduction into the fixtures.

I want a tankless water heater, to replace my current age unknown water heater. Except, it would be natural gas powered, and I'd also like to move it outside (it's currently in my garage).

If your doing new construction, I would not run copper lines, I would run PEX, and do a home run design.

Also, 1/2" pipe is too small to feed a bathroom. You need 3/4" into the bathroom, then 1/2" reduction into the fixtures.

I want a tankless water heater, to replace my current age unknown water heater. Except, it would be natural gas powered, and I'd also like to move it outside (it's currently in my garage).

You'd have to move it. IIRC, the plumbing code forbids any gas hot water heater (propane or natural gas) from being installed in a garage, even with a system that uses a sealed burner with ducted combustion air in and out. (That's what I was told by Bosch anyways...) Electrics are OK in a garage.

-Joe

You'd have to move it. IIRC, the plumbing code forbids any gas hot water heater (propane or natural gas) from being installed in a garage, even with a system that uses a sealed burner with ducted combustion air in and out. (That's what I was told by Bosch anyways...) Electrics are OK in a garage.

-Joe

interesting, because I've seen gas water heaters installed in garages lately. I really want to move it outside the garage anyway to get that space back (and I don't want to move it inside the house - there is no space there.) Oh, and my garage is not a sealed up unit - it has vents and no insulation, no heat.


I'll have to do some research on this.

interesting, because I've seen gas water heaters installed in garages lately. I really want to move it outside the garage anyway to get that space back (and I don't want to move it inside the house - there is no space there.) Oh, and my garage is not a sealed up unit - it has vents and no insulation, no heat.


I'll have to do some research on this.

This little electric dealio takes up the same space as 2 shoe boxes

interesting, because I've seen gas water heaters installed in garages lately. I really want to move it outside the garage anyway to get that space back (and I don't want to move it inside the house - there is no space there.) Oh, and my garage is not a sealed up unit - it has vents and no insulation, no heat.


I'll have to do some research on this.

Even if it's not code, it's still a good idea to locate a gas hot water heater in a place where it's unlikely to have combustible fumes in the air. Garages are full of combustible gasses... gas cans, power equipment, etc. are all sources, and you don't want to use those as combustion gasses for obvious reasons LOL!

Yes, but this is quake country I live in (had 2 minor shakes in 2 weeks.. one at 4.2 on the richter scale!). I don't want a water tank anymore. Like I said, they make a version of the gas heaters that is designed to be mounted outdoors.

The house is 57 years old, so I'm stuck with lots of bad things, like barely 100amp electrical service and actually, I think it's 75amp, crap in the pipes from mineral buildup, and 2 wire no-ground, polarized electrical system; but hey, I have breakers and copper wire!

The outside mounted ones should work well, so long as it never dips below freezing... if Pinole is near San Francisco like i think, it *shouldn't* be a problem... I know they won't even think of using those anywhere they get frost, let alone freezing temps.

-Joe

I hope it is ok for me to move this into the new forum!!

I hope it is ok for me to move this into the new forum!!

NEVER!!!!!!:mad:




j/k...fine by me. :D :p:

There are a few others that I need to go track down and move too. If anyone else sees any that need to be moved here, either let me know, or move 'em over.

Well, you know the old wives tale of "don't flush your water heater if hasn't been flushed in ages - the drain valve will not seal back up!".

Yup, I just experienced that. Off to Home Despot to see if they have a replacement valve.

Oh, the reasons I opened it - I have been fighting a flow/pressure problem in the master bathroom. Pulled apart the fixtures, and what did I find?

In the hot water side, lots of white scale. I mean PLUGGED white. Looks like I'm headed towards a new water heater of some sort, and lots of flushing and cleaning of the hot water pipes.

Well, you know the old wives tale of "don't flush your water heater if hasn't been flushed in ages - the drain valve will not seal back up!".

Yup, I just experienced that. Off to Home Despot to see if they have a replacement valve.

Oh, the reasons I opened it - I have been fighting a flow/pressure problem in the master bathroom. Pulled apart the fixtures, and what did I find?

In the hot water side, lots of white scale. I mean PLUGGED white. Looks like I'm headed towards a new water heater of some sort, and lots of flushing and cleaning of the hot water pipes.

Tom, do you run a water softener in your house? If you have mineral deposit problems, a good water softener will help. I've got my house set up so that right after the pressure bottle (private well), I've got a 5 micron filter and then a water softener on the main line. That way all my copper piping and furnace/hot water tank are only seeing filtered water.

No water softener; this is all good ol' California delta water.. So it's probably hard as a rock.

Flushing the tank, I saw just clear water, no gunk. Valve is replaced, everything is back on for now.. Now, to start a thread about the Master Bathroom demo.. er remodel.

I always hear Paul Harvey talking about the Rinni (i think that's right) tankless water heaters. I've heard good things about those too.

We're going to be building a house in a couple of years and i've been tossing up this idea. I'm just waiting for my old hot water heater here to kick the bucket and ruin my laminate wood floors.

I have a 5 micron filter on my main line. Tom, sometimes the white flakes in the line are from the anode deteriorating inside of the tank. Unscrew that rod, and see if it still has a coating. If not, then replace the rod with a new one, and flush out the entire system thoroughly. Do you sometimes see rusty water when you first turn on the hot water?

Rusty/Whitish water comes out of the bathroom tap that isn't used for several days.

I know my house has both galvanized and copper pipe in it.. which is bad in my mind. I have also seen scale and bad corrosion on the galvanized pipe that is under a sink.

If I remove the anode, I am worried I will have to replace - which again, has never been to the best of my knowledge.

I'll add that to the shopping list, so instead of "checking" and finding it bad, I'll just replace it.

I've installed a lot of main line, and under the sink water filters, but have never worked with water softeners. Jeff, could you write an article about water softeners with some internal diagrams? Did you install your main line water filter, and water softener yourself? Does it have any removable parts which have to be cleaned out, or replaced like cartridges or screens?

I've installed a lot of main line, and under the sink water filters, but have never worked with water softeners. Jeff, could you write an article about water softeners with some internal diagrams? Did you install your main line water filter, and water softener yourself? Does it have any removable parts which have to be cleaned out, or replaced like cartridges or screens?

I did install the filter and softener myself. Not a big deal to do. I put a filter on the main line of the house which requires a cartridge to be replaced every so often. Since we're on a well and in farmland, we have a lot of sediment in our water, so we replace it about once a month. The water softener is a Kenmore automatic softener that measures the volume of water that goes through it, and re-generates based on the volume and hardness value (owner programmed value). We only have about 12 grains of hardness here so we don't go through a ton of salt. To clean the softener bed, you pour a chemical into it every couple of years and run a full manual re-gen cycle. Other than that, just add salt :)

I'm sure there's a softener diagram and explanation somewhere on the web. I'll have to take a look and see if I can find one and post it up.

Here's a quick writeup on water softeners from the Howstuffworks website and a diagram from PWGazette:

http://home.howstuffworks.com/question99.htm
http://www.pwgazette.com/howsoftenerswork.htm

We call water "hard" if it contains a lot of calcium or magnesium dissolved in it. Hard water causes two problems:
It can cause "scale" to form on the inside of pipes, water heaters (http://www.howstuffworks.com/water-heater.htm), tea kettles and so on. The calcium and magnesium precipitate out of the water and stick to things. The scale doesn't conduct heat well and it also reduces the flow through pipes. Eventually, pipes can become completely clogged.
It reacts with soap to form a sticky scum, and also reduces the soap's ability to lather. Since most of us like to wash with soap, hard water makes a bath or shower less productive. The solution to hard water is either to filter the water by distillation (http://home.howstuffworks.com/framed.htm?parent=question99.htm&url=http://lorien.ncl.ac.uk/ming/distil/distil0.htm) or reverse osmosis (http://home.howstuffworks.com/question29.htm) to remove the calcium and magnesium, or to use a water softener. Filtration would be extremely expensive to use for all the water in a house, so a water softener is usually a less costly solution. The idea behind a water softener is simple. The calcium and magnesium ions in the water are replaced with sodium ions. Since sodium does not precipitate out in pipes or react badly with soap, both of the problems of hard water are eliminated. To do the ion replacement, the water in the house runs through a bed of small plastic beads or through a chemical matrix called zeolite. The beads or zeolite are covered with sodium ions. As the water flows past the sodium ions, they swap places with the calcium and magnesium ions. Eventually, the beads or zeolite contain nothing but calcium and magnesium and no sodium, and at this point they stop softening the water. It is then time to regenerate the beads or zeolite.
Regeneration involves soaking the beads or zeolite in a stream of sodium ions. Salt is sodium chloride, so the water softener mixes up a very strong brine solution and flushes it through the zeolite or beads (this is why you load up a water softener with salt). The strong brine displaces all of the calcium and magnesium that has built up in the zeolite or beads and replaces it again with sodium. The remaining brine plus all of the calcium and magnesium is flushed out through a drain pipe. Regeneration can create a lot of salty water, by the way -- something like 25 gallons (95 liters).

http://www.pwgazette.com/images/backwashing/5600softenerillustration.jpg
http://www.pwgazette.com/howsoftenerswork.htm

Thanks for taking the time to post this valuable information! Do you notice a big pressure drop by running a water filter, and a water softener? I did a pressure test on somebody's system before, and after I installed a 5 micron cartridge. I was surprised that there was only a 1 PSI drop. The drop increases slowly as it is used until the cartridge has to be replaced.

I never measured my drop, but we really don't notice if we run the softener on bypass, so it can't be much. IIRC, the owners manual for the softener says it's about 3 psi. I've got my pressure bottle set at 70/50 psi (gotta love good copper piping :D ), so I only notice a drop when the filter gets clogged.

We only have about 12 grains of hardness here so we don't go through a ton of salt. To clean the softener bed, you pour a chemical into it every couple of years and run a full manual re-gen cycle. Other than that, just add salt :)


I just did the conversion.. and we have 203 grains of hardness here.. And thats with us running on the good well only. The other well brings up what loosk like muddy water.

~Mark

I just did the conversion.. and we have 203 grains of hardness here.. And thats with us running on the good well only. The other well brings up what loosk like muddy water.

~Mark

203??????? Dang...you could use that water for armor plating!!!! Do you have to chew on it to soften it up? :eek:

203??????? Dang...you could use that water for armor plating!!!! Do you have to chew on it to soften it up? :eek:

We don't drink/cook with the water.. According the the new standards, we have 10x too much arsenic.

We don't wash the car with it either... it makes the car turn white.

We really need a deeper well to get good water (we are only 635 ft).

~Mark

We don't drink/cook with the water.. According the the new standards, we have 10x too much arsenic.

We don't wash the car with it either... it makes the car turn white.

We really need a deeper well to get good water (we are only 635 ft).

~Mark

Holy smokes!!.....you live on an old nuclear reservation or something? :eek:

IIRC, we're down 180 feet and we have excellent water, except for the sediment.

We just replaced our natural gas tank hot water heater and I had checked into a tankless one as an option. After the research I did I was convinced that it was not an adequate solution for our area, yet.
1) I live in a cold climate where the temps can hit -40. Our water comes from the river so during the winter the inlet water temperature is much colder than the summer. If you have a unit that is rated for 2 appliances you might find that it can only keep up with 1.5 appliances in the house.
2) Cost savings depends on you maintaining your current water usage habits. With these you have all the hot water you want for as long as you want. If you start taking longer showers etc you can start to cut into the cost savings. My kids are young and I pictured them becoming teenagers and the showers running for 6 hours a day! With a tank I have a throttle, when the water is gone the shower is over!
3) The unit we were looking at required you to install a water to softener in order to have a warranty, extra cost and even longer payback.

A big thing we did to save was to start washing our clothes with cold water. They still come out clean and saves a lot of hot water. I also turned the tempurature down on it a little so it does not maintain it as high.

Just my thoughts on the topic...

Jon, what is the BTU rating on this tankless heater?

Jon, what is the BTU rating on this tankless heater?

I don't know if it is rated that way--

http://www.tanklesswaterheaters.com/seriesthree.html

I have the T2T model, which allows hot water feed also.

I was thinking about this the other day- As a part of new construction, depending on house design, you could put a smaller version of these at key points near hot water use. Only one water line would have to be run, as water would be heated on site. You'd have instant hot water, less plumbing runs, lower utility bills. The cost savings of running roughly 1/2" the pipes (expensive if all copper) would offset the costs of the heaters. I don't know what they cost, but a lower GPM model would be needed at each site- say 2-4 units for an average 3br 2ba house. I think if I ever get to build a house, I will do this.
You're thinking along the same line as a hotel/motel. From what I understand more and more they are getting away from a large boiler to supply all the rooms. These are called "point-of-use" hot water heaters. Next time you stay somewhere look under the sink, I bet you see one.

As far as saveing money only running 1 water line is be true. But the cost of the copper wire to power even a small unit would wash that saveing away. Not to mention the breakers and other things. For sure I DON'T KNOW YOUR LOCAL CODES, hell I barely know mine, but I doubt they will let you put a gas unit in unless it is ventless in a bathroom.

But you're right about instantainous hot water. Mount it under the sink and you have about a 1 foot run to the sink and mabey 10 to a shower.

The new rage I see on TV upgrades is a water pump to prime hot water lines. I thought that that was a slick thought. A water pump sends hot water in a loop from the heater tank to a sink or shower, or bathroom at a far end of house. A single button is used on a wall etc. to run the pump for a short programmed time. Thus you push the button a minute before needing the hot water for a shower etc. Another interesting approach.

im building a small bathroom in the shop, I was going to do this as an alternative to another small tank heater like the one we already have for another sink in the shop. The installation was easy enough? What does it need to mount on?

im building a small bathroom in the shop, I was going to do this as an alternative to another small tank heater like the one we already have for another sink in the shop. The installation was easy enough? What does it need to mount on?
Ours is for running 2 showers at a time--they make smaller one shower units.

Running the wiring is the most difficult part of the install. This unit requires a large supply, then 3 dedicated legs.I think the smaller units require just 2
It is easiest to supply a remote panel located near the heater. Pulling the supply to the panel will suck--this needs to be very large wire.

All that is needed for the physical mounting is a nailer on the top and bottom, or on each side--I think it weighs about 4 pounds.

What does it need to mount on?

Something fire resistant. If you're mounting it to some cinder blocks or a concrete foundation in a basement, nothing else is needed. But before you make your purchase check out a brand called TITAN tankless water heaters. I think they are made by Nigiria Industries. The ones I've seen, have your choice of 1, 2, or 4 heating elements inside depending on your needs.

Something fire resistant. If you're mounting it to some cinder blocks or a concrete foundation in a basement, nothing else is needed. But before you make your purchase check out a brand called TITAN tankless water heaters. I think they are made by Nigiria Industries. The ones I've seen, have your choice of 1, 2, or 4 heating elements inside depending on your needs.

This unit needs no fire resistance--it is electric.
just space it 1/2" from sheetrock and you are fine--

This unit needs no fire resistance--it is electric.
just space it 1/2" from sheetrock and you are fine--

I would think it should be fire resistant so incase it shorts the sparks dont set the wall on fire.

I would think it should be fire resistant so incase it shorts the sparks dont set the wall on fire.

Thats why it has triple protection--there is nothing to "short circuit"
solid state relays in box-breaker for each element, and a main service breaker.

The elements are submersed
no worries---

This baby is UL listed--if it needed a fireproof surround it would state it in the installation requirements for sure--

I think you should be a salesman for them Jon :D

Well, I visited a local HomeDepot tonight..

I'm really considering installing a Paloma Natural Gas model. It's $999.00, plus a 289.00 vent kit, probably another $100 in parts/tools.

I have to replace about 6ft of natural gas line (easy, none of the gas line is attached to the walls..), work on the water line in that area (again, not hard), and install the vent kit through the side wall. Not that difficult to do, just time consuming.

Here's the good news on that price - Subtract $300 for the tax credit (credit, not deduction), AND, I'm told you can you use a Lowes 10% off coupon on this..

So, money wise, that is about $1563, minus 138, minus another 300, for a ball park of $1200 installed..

Funny, it will take a good 5-10 years to recover the difference in gas savings on top of that, to bring the cost down to about the same as 12 year, 40gal water heater tank.

But, I can run both showers, and the dishwasher at the same time, and not worry about running out of hot water, where as with the 40 gal tank.. Well, I would not try to run both showers and the diswasher at the same time.

:confused:

Mine has been great so far. I think I've had it for about a year now with no problems. I'm using a gas version too. PG&E was definitely reduced. :cool:

Mine has been great so far. I think I've had it for about a year now with no problems. I'm using a gas version too. PG&E was definitely reduced. :cool:

Is it the Paloma?

Just checked my remodel thread.. it's a Bosch.

http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=31390&stc=1&d=1141624243

There are 3 models from A.O. Smith. Their top model (XT-236) has the highest (from what I've found so far) BTU rating of 236,000 BTU. You could run up to 6 fixtures on it. The Paloma has a lower rating. I couldn't find the rating on the Bosch. Here is a PDF with more information: http://www.hotwater.com/lit/spec/res_gas/ARG-SS01206.pdf

Spec sheets for the 3 Prostar models:

XT-190L
http://www.hotwater.com/lit/im/media/res_gas/184959-105.pdf

XT-199L
http://www.hotwater.com/lit/im/media/res_gas/184959-106.pdf

XT-236L
http://www.hotwater.com/lit/im/media/res_gas/184959-107.pdf

The "L" models are natural gas. The "P" models are propane.

My local plumbing store claims that A.O. Smith discontinued their tankless hot water heaters, and now sells a different product line manufactured by Noritz. Here is some more information: http://www.noritz.com/products.html

Well, it has been awhile. Last night the shower seemed a bit cold so I took off the cover and did a few tests. The center element was opened. :(
Ok, Good thing I have a few extra elements from the last service call I placed.
I got out all the tools, turned water off, switched off all 4 breakers and dove in.

While twisting out the old element the housing cracked. It apparently was fused in there good. The center manifold housing is not a field replacable part. Oh good. Not to mention it is under pressure. This means the hot supply line must remain shut off.

I placed a call in to service and am getting, once again, an entire new unit. Cold showers for a few days I guess.

We must be getting an air bubble in the supply line some how-
Since the elements are 9kw each, if they are exposed to open air they will pop like a flash bulb. The flowing water is actually a cooling for the elements.

Is there a way to install a air bubble trap ahead of the water heater as a preventative measure, just in case this is what is going on?

...Check with your local hardware store for an anti knock plumbing device...;)

...Air may be getting trapped during the installation or service of your equipment....This could/would result in a "Hammer" effect to your system...I am pretty sure you can find these at HD and Lowes...

...I borrowed this pic...The anti knock device is shown on the left side of both of these manifold set ups...
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2293/2476825086_20115512aa.jpg

Ted, do you think a Spirovent would be better? http://www.spirotherm.com/

Well, the vendor says it is a design issue.
New redesigned ( series 3 now) water heater just arrived!

now to install it and finally take a hot shower again.

I would be surprised if you were getting air into the system from outside in the first place... Do your faucets regularly spit it out? (Because that's where it would end up eventually)...

I can't believe you're still having issues with that thing... What's it been now? Like 7 elements in three years? In your opinion, is it really worth it given that a tank will last 10+?

I would be surprised if you were getting air into the system from outside in the first place... Do your faucets regularly spit it out? (Because that's where it would end up eventually)...

I can't believe you're still having issues with that thing... What's it been now? Like 7 elements in three years? In your opinion, is it really worth it given that a tank will last 10+?

I wonder also. However, as long as they honor the warranty I will use thier product.
The city water supply is questionable at best. They could be letting air in?

I have an outdoor frost free faucet in line before the house also. I wonder if it is bleeding down and letting air in?



New unit is installed. I also had to run to the lumber yard for some fittings. Waiting for the glue to dry for a pressure test.

It seems like the gas powered units are less troublesome. Would this be an option? They could run on propane or natural gas.

It seems like the gas powered units are less troublesome. Would this be an option? They could run on propane or natural gas.

We have no gas lines on our property. We looked into getting it, and I am now glad we did not. It is city gas here and very expensive.

The hot shower felt great. I can already tell the difference in operation of the series 3 heater. For one, there is a time delay between turning on the water, and the element relays clicking on.

This I assume is to insure water is flowing on the elements before the heat up.

Some houses in upstate NY have a large propane tank in their backyard since they don't have gas lines. I would feel uncomfortable looking out my back window at a "life size" barbecue tank. :eek: They have refilling trucks that come around to refill them, but I could understand not wanting one of these things (especially if somebody smokes near it). :smoke:

Some houses in upstate NY have a large propane tank in their backyard since they don't have gas lines. I would feel uncomfortable looking out my back window at a "life size" barbecue tank. :eek: They have refilling trucks that come around to refill them, but I could understand not wanting one of these things. :smoke:

Well, of course, the city owns the gas company, so they made a city ordinance which prohibits propane tanks over 100 lbs., and they can only be connected to portable fixtures.

I'm planning to go gas when I go tankless. I have a 100# tank right near where the water heater will go. I'll probably get the type that bolts to the OUTSIDE of the house. Then no worries about venting or anything.

I wonder if the engineers will eventually discontinue electric heating elements, and use microwaves instead. Magnetron tubes last many years, and could heat water instantly. They now have solid state replacments for these tubes, but they are not in production ovens yet. It takes years for new items to go into production even though they were thoroughly tested in a lab.

I'm planning to go gas when I go tankless. I have a 100# tank right near where the water heater will go. I'll probably get the type that bolts to the OUTSIDE of the house. Then no worries about venting or anything.

That only works in areas of the country that never freeze. Upstate New York is not one of those. :)

I wonder if the engineers will eventually discontinue electric heating elements, and use microwaves instead. Magnetron tubes last many years, and could heat water instantly. They now have solid state replacments for these tubes, but they are not in production ovens yet. It takes years for new items to go into production even though they were thoroughly tested in a lab.

That's an interesting concept, but how much power is used in those to convert the electricity to electromagnetic energy, and then using that to warm the water? I wonder if it's any more efficient than a resistance element? I mean, it takes my 1200 watt microwave about 4 minutes to boil 4 cups of water.... I can't imagine a unit 4 times its size (around 5000 watts) would be able to keep up with several gallons per minute of flowing water... Now, if we're talking about 30,000 watts like the one Turdle has in his house.... now you got me wondering....

And how would you throttle something like that? On the one Turdle has, it can use just one or two of the elements, or vary the duty cycle using a solid state relay to meet demand... With a magnetron being either on or off, can you vary the duty cycle enough in a large unit to accomplish a reduction in heat, or would you use several smaller units like the resistance unit?

That only works in areas of the country that never freeze. Upstate New York is not one of those. :)



That's an interesting concept, but how much power is used in those to convert the electricity to electromagnetic energy, and then using that to warm the water? I wonder if it's any more efficient than a resistance element? I mean, it takes my 1200 watt microwave about 4 minutes to boil 4 cups of water.... I can't imagine a unit 4 times its size (around 5000 watts) would be able to keep up with several gallons per minute of flowing water... Now, if we're talking about 30,000 watts like the one Turdle has in his house.... now you got me wondering....

And how would you throttle something like that? On the one Turdle has, it can use just one or two of the elements, or vary the duty cycle using a solid state relay to meet demand... With a magnetron being either on or off, can you vary the duty cycle enough in a large unit to accomplish a reduction in heat, or would you use several smaller units like the resistance unit?

The newly designed unit uses mechanical relays to control the 3 - 9.5 KW elements. They have added a triac in the circuit now.

Those would be huge magnetrons, I would assume a microwave heater would be comparable in size to a conventional water heater.

That only works in areas of the country that never freeze. Upstate New York is not one of those. :)


Well, they have protection against that, but yes, extremely cold climates, are probably too much for it. I looked at one that says -4 degrees and it'll keep from freezing, which is fine down south.

Magnetron tubes might be bulky, but their solid state upgrades are not. In a regular microwave oven, you have various heat settings, so it's not that hard to regulate their output.