Dismiss Notice



Register Today It's free! This box will disappear once registered!

1998 5.0 XLT Electrical Gremlins. PATs and horn problem.

Discussion in 'Stock 1995 - 2001 Explorers' started by Nate_V8, February 19, 2018.

  • Searches ExplorerForum.com
    1. CDW6212R

      CDW6212R Hauls the mail. Elite Explorer

      Joined:
      June 17, 2004
      Messages:
      17,679
      Media:
      3
      Albums:
      1
      Likes Received:
      564
      Trophy Points:
      143
      City, State:
      Knoxville, TN
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      98 Limited AWD
      If you don't have those systems working and all components, I'd remove it all and restore the stock parts to be more secure from shorting or damage. It might be harder and still not free to repair or get those things to operate again, plus it could take as much time as buying new systems etc.

      The exposed wire was most likely taped over, but tape lets go. The main ignition wires are the big ones to worry about, you don't want any of them to be damaged. A short could fry a section of a wire, and that can be a huge problem to trace and repair. So prioritize the main wires, those are precious and you don't want to ever have to mess with them.

      If your key code works by moving it nearer to the PATS receiver, that's great, you shouldn't have to deal with dealer programming(still if you have two good keys). The PATS module stores the key codes in it, the rest of the components you can replace as needed.
       
    2. Support EF

      Join the Elite Explorers for $20

      Explorer Forum has probably saved you that much already, and will continue to save you money as you learn how to diagnose fix problems yourself, and learn which modifications work without having to experiment on your own. Elite Explorer members see practically no ads, can add their own profile photo, upload photo attachments in all forums, and Media Gallery, create more private Conversations, and more. Join Today. Your support is greatly appreciated.


      to hide adverts.
    3. Nate_V8

      Nate_V8 Active Member

      Joined:
      August 15, 2009
      Messages:
      228
      Likes Received:
      5
      Trophy Points:
      18
      City, State:
      Montreal, Quebec
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      1998 XLT 5L AWD
      Yea I don't care about remote start/electric trailer brakes....etc.

      Which ones are the main ignition wires? I plan on being careful with all of them but I'm sure I want to be extra careful with those lol

      Why is that great if the receiver still works when it is close to the key? Does that mean I can use it still or do I still need a new/used one?

      I'm going out here today since the weather isn't bad (+1c) and going to remove the battery/battery tray and check out the horn. I'm going to bring 2 wires and put 12v directly to the horn and see if that works.
       
    4. CDW6212R

      CDW6212R Hauls the mail. Elite Explorer

      Joined:
      June 17, 2004
      Messages:
      17,679
      Media:
      3
      Albums:
      1
      Likes Received:
      564
      Trophy Points:
      143
      City, State:
      Knoxville, TN
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      98 Limited AWD
      The two horns are bolted down with just one bolt(maybe two), I can't recall if you can see it in front of the battery tray . I've got a picture with everything out, just a minute;

      The main wires are the biggest ones at the ignition switch, the pictures show them with tape over a wire on each. If they just made the wires bare and soldered to them, you can gently cut the new wires close and tape it up, a liquid electrical tape might be a nice first step(I forgot about that, I had some which dried up after a few years(you rarely use it)).

      The PATS device that you're placing the key near, that might just be the problem, it not sensing the key in the ignition every time. I'd swap that part out and see if that fixes it.

      My problem went away after I "fixed that blue piece" and put the column trim pieces back on. Since the key sensor isn't related to the PATS, I must have at the same time moved something else also, fixing my THEFT light issue. The blue piece is all I recall doing much with there.

      93Frontframe.jpg

      ARCModule 092.jpg

      Projectthread036.JPG
       
    5. Nate_V8

      Nate_V8 Active Member

      Joined:
      August 15, 2009
      Messages:
      228
      Likes Received:
      5
      Trophy Points:
      18
      City, State:
      Montreal, Quebec
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      1998 XLT 5L AWD
      Thanks for the pics. Probably would have helped if I saw that first as I removed something on the other side of them that had vac hoses and looked to be part of the AC system. The hoses were pretty dried anyways so I'm going to hit them with vaseline when I put it back in.


      So found why my horns didn't work. UGH. One thing after another. Did I mention I hate wiring? Maybe I just hate bad wiring.... That red wire had tape around it and was just sitting out in the open not attached to anything.
      20180306_142754.jpg






      I think there might be a metal plugin tab or 2 missing? I can't figure out where the power and ground need to go. They work as I hooked them up to the battery and they fired away. Anyone have a pic or proper wiring diagram?
      20180306_142710.jpg 20180306_142724.jpg


      Oh and if I didn't say it before, thank you everyone for the help so far.
       
      • Like Like x 1
    6. Mbrooks420

      Mbrooks420 High Voltage. Elite Explorer

      Joined:
      February 2, 2002
      Messages:
      6,715
      Media:
      3
      Albums:
      1
      Likes Received:
      284
      Trophy Points:
      103
      City, State:
      Erie, Pennsylvania
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      1998 Mountaineer AWD
      Looks like a horn tab is busted off. Why are they so oil covered?
       
    7. Nate_V8

      Nate_V8 Active Member

      Joined:
      August 15, 2009
      Messages:
      228
      Likes Received:
      5
      Trophy Points:
      18
      City, State:
      Montreal, Quebec
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      1998 XLT 5L AWD
      But is it busted off? Where is the ground? or does it ground to the chassis?

      I get my truck krowned every fall. Rust belt.


      EDIT:

      After looking at a wiring diagram I don't know why there is a red wire added in there. the one connector powers both horns. it sucks too because I have the battery/tray out so I can't hook them up and test what the red wire does.
       
      Last edited: March 6, 2018
    8. CDW6212R

      CDW6212R Hauls the mail. Elite Explorer

      Joined:
      June 17, 2004
      Messages:
      17,679
      Media:
      3
      Albums:
      1
      Likes Received:
      564
      Trophy Points:
      143
      City, State:
      Knoxville, TN
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      98 Limited AWD
      The horns ground through the bolt/chassis, so only the power wire goes to the terminal.
       
    9. Nate_V8

      Nate_V8 Active Member

      Joined:
      August 15, 2009
      Messages:
      228
      Likes Received:
      5
      Trophy Points:
      18
      City, State:
      Montreal, Quebec
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      1998 XLT 5L AWD
      What a pain in the ass. Is there an easy way to get at the horn with the battery and battery tray installed?

      I know horn button works and has power since when I press it I hear the relay clicking in the power fuse box under the hood. Can relay's go bad and still click? I doubt it is my problem, I don't have a relay checker. If the relay is good then either something is wrong with the blue power wire or it isn't grounding properly.

      What I will try first is I will get a sanding block and rough up the area it bolts to (can't see it and it could be rusty) and rough up the contact surface on the horns. I will clean the terminal and use some dialectic grease on the terminal. It worked and then stopped and then worked again and then stopped so something is up. It would be weird if the blue wire connector is broken and they soldered the red wire in and connected it somewhere on the horn..
       
      Last edited: March 8, 2018
    10. toypaseo

      toypaseo Flunked daycare Elite Explorer

      Joined:
      January 3, 2003
      Messages:
      6,409
      Media:
      17
      Albums:
      1
      Likes Received:
      153
      Trophy Points:
      83
      City, State:
      outside shovelling snow
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      ................ 96 XLT ™
      When my RAP module was acting up, I unhooked my horns on my 96 from underneath. No battery or tray removal needed.
       
    11. CDW6212R

      CDW6212R Hauls the mail. Elite Explorer

      Joined:
      June 17, 2004
      Messages:
      17,679
      Media:
      3
      Albums:
      1
      Likes Received:
      564
      Trophy Points:
      143
      City, State:
      Knoxville, TN
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      98 Limited AWD
      The hold down bolt should make a fine contact if it's tight. First test the relay, simply swap the relays around to test them. They all interchange, the two sizes used in the late 90's.

      If the relay is okay, then it's likely the power wire, which you could test by jumping power to the output side of the relay(with it out). Be careful probing into any connectors, the terminals are fragile and can be pushed through etc.
       
    12. Nate_V8

      Nate_V8 Active Member

      Joined:
      August 15, 2009
      Messages:
      228
      Likes Received:
      5
      Trophy Points:
      18
      City, State:
      Montreal, Quebec
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      1998 XLT 5L AWD
      Alright so I cleaned the contacts on horns, cut that red wire off and sealed it up and reinstalled them only for them to not work. Still relay clicking so I tried what you said and swapped the relays and HOOONK. I thought if the relay was clicking that it was working. Lesson learned!

      I cut out most of that black box, I got the ignition wires freed and sealed up (one wasn't even soldered on) but now I'm stuck. I'll post pics tomorrow.

      I tried hooking up the PATS transceiver ring and now it doesn't even work when I hold the key up to it so it's finished. I ordered a used unit from ebay with the same part number as mine which is F8SB-15607-AB so I'm assuming that I just plug it in and it should work with my keys???
       
      Last edited: March 12, 2018
    13. Mbrooks420

      Mbrooks420 High Voltage. Elite Explorer

      Joined:
      February 2, 2002
      Messages:
      6,715
      Media:
      3
      Albums:
      1
      Likes Received:
      284
      Trophy Points:
      103
      City, State:
      Erie, Pennsylvania
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      1998 Mountaineer AWD
      It’s just a pickup so it should be plug and play, no need to program anything.
       
    14. Nate_V8

      Nate_V8 Active Member

      Joined:
      August 15, 2009
      Messages:
      228
      Likes Received:
      5
      Trophy Points:
      18
      City, State:
      Montreal, Quebec
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      1998 XLT 5L AWD
      Ok so now that the horn problem is dealt with and I'm waiting a few weeks on the PATs ring, I'm now going to finish off this black box. I'm hoping you guys know the wiring under here lol.


      Ok so I freed the ignition wires and sealed them back up.
      20180310_155917.jpg


      Here is what is left under the dash. These are from the remote starter box and the electric brakes controller (I'm assuming that is what it is).


      That tiny black box is attached to all this. I'm assuming I can cut the red wires and little dual wire coming though the firewall?
      20180310_160523.jpg


      The old stereo type wire is confusing and there is some wire spliced into the wire coming out of that yellow connector.

      20180310_160549.jpg


      Another pic of the yellow connector

      20180310_160606.jpg


      Here are the last wires coming from the black box remote starter. I can't see where they go unfortunately. I don't see why the black and beige wire go to the side. Any ideas? I'm assuming there is no other box they go to in the truck....

      20180310_160654.jpg
       
      • Like Like x 1
    15. CDW6212R

      CDW6212R Hauls the mail. Elite Explorer

      Joined:
      June 17, 2004
      Messages:
      17,679
      Media:
      3
      Albums:
      1
      Likes Received:
      564
      Trophy Points:
      143
      City, State:
      Knoxville, TN
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      98 Limited AWD
      A remote starter has to make a connection to the brake switch, they call it the BOO circuit. That yellow connector looks like it's to the brake switch. Hopefully they didn't damage that one brake wire, it's very important to normal operation besides the brake lights. Check your brake lights regularly, that's the easy way to know if the switch is working right.

      The wires through the firewall are probably going to a power tap near the battery or fuse box. Be sure you disconnect the battery while working on those odd wires, they're likely connected to some live wires.
       
    16. Nate_V8

      Nate_V8 Active Member

      Joined:
      August 15, 2009
      Messages:
      228
      Likes Received:
      5
      Trophy Points:
      18
      City, State:
      Montreal, Quebec
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      1998 XLT 5L AWD
      I will track it through the firewall and see if I can find the source.

      What about the ones in the last pic, one splices into a purple wire but the flat black one and the beige one go towards the fuse panel but if I recall correctly they don't splice into the fuse panel but go into the chassis...

      My PATS transceiver ring came in today. I will try to get out today and install it. I really hope this works!!!!

      I haven't touched the truck since I posted the pics because the weather has been cold and crappy. This week it's supposed to warm up to 0 so I will get it all done then hopefully
       
    17. CDW6212R

      CDW6212R Hauls the mail. Elite Explorer

      Joined:
      June 17, 2004
      Messages:
      17,679
      Media:
      3
      Albums:
      1
      Likes Received:
      564
      Trophy Points:
      143
      City, State:
      Knoxville, TN
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      98 Limited AWD
      I hope it gets warmer than freezing for you soon. I don't move well in warm weather, cold is bad.

      I'd cut out all non stock wires, as long as you know there isn't any add on device that you need them for. Restoring the sealed condition of the OEM wires would be the best plan, so you don't have to worry about them.
       
    18. Nate_V8

      Nate_V8 Active Member

      Joined:
      August 15, 2009
      Messages:
      228
      Likes Received:
      5
      Trophy Points:
      18
      City, State:
      Montreal, Quebec
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      1998 XLT 5L AWD
      All done. Cut the stupid box out and all associated parts. I think I cut out something for electric brakes too.
      20180321_181755.jpg




      Unfortunately...........................

      Plugged in the used PATS transceiver ring I got from ebay and same problem. When I first tried to start it, I knew it didn't work before the theft light started blinking fast. If the check engine light doesn't turn on when you turn the key on before starting it, it won't start and when you try, it just cranks over and over with the theft light blinking fast.

      However I tried turning it off and on several times and all of a sudden the check engine light comes on and I could start it. Tried it several more times and was able to start each time. Then there was 5 or 6 times it wouldn't and then it was fine again. What are the chances I got one with same problem as the one it replaced??

      I also now have a new problem...Gah!
      My power locks are all screwed up. I push the power lock on the door and nothing, when I use the key fob lock button I can hear clicking at the doors and I can hear clicking from OUTSIDE the truck where the RAP module is, just above the driver side rear wheel. Unlock will unlock the drivers door but that is it with the key fob or door unlock. What the hell is going on?
       
    19. CDW6212R

      CDW6212R Hauls the mail. Elite Explorer

      Joined:
      June 17, 2004
      Messages:
      17,679
      Media:
      3
      Albums:
      1
      Likes Received:
      564
      Trophy Points:
      143
      City, State:
      Knoxville, TN
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      98 Limited AWD
      It's possible the wiring removed included something attached to the door locks, and it's severed something of the original lock wiring. I'd begin by checking(swapping around) the door lock relays, those in the rear quarter.

      That start issue sounds more like what mine did, just randomly not start etc. How sure are you that the key is a trusted original etc? I'd try the other two keys you should have, see if those work any differently.
       
    20. boominXplorer

      boominXplorer Elite Ranger Elite Explorer

      Joined:
      September 16, 2002
      Messages:
      8,300
      Media:
      55
      Albums:
      3
      Likes Received:
      289
      Trophy Points:
      103
      City, State:
      Virginia Beach, Va
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      00 4x4 Mounty
      Did you replace that swapped relay for the horn that was bad? I'd check the other relays in the box by swapping them around.
       
    21. Nate_V8

      Nate_V8 Active Member

      Joined:
      August 15, 2009
      Messages:
      228
      Likes Received:
      5
      Trophy Points:
      18
      City, State:
      Montreal, Quebec
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      1998 XLT 5L AWD
      Well the only wires that I had no clue what they attached to are the the 2 thin black wires passing through the rubber membrane (I can't recall what is called lol) in the firewall that go into the engine bay. I doubt they had something to do with the door lock wiring. Everything else I found and taped off with no issues.

      I am not sure they are original as the keys do not work for the hatch and I did see on ebay tonight that you can buy an ignition cylinder, 2 keys and 2 front door lock cyclinders.. but no trunk lock cylinder. Maybe they were replaced and not the trunk latch?
      But the pats problem does the same thing for both keys. What are the chances both could go bad at the same time?

      Can you buy new transceiver modules from ford?

      I swapped the relays for the horn in the engine bay and when the horn worked I swapped it back. From the look of the diagram online there is nothing close to the horn relay that I could have switched that controls the door locks. They are partly working though, so if a relay or fuse was toast they wouldn't work at all right?



      Clicking from the RAP module has me stumped. Maybe it has something to do with being unhooked from the battery so long? (2 weeks).
       
    22. CDW6212R

      CDW6212R Hauls the mail. Elite Explorer

      Joined:
      June 17, 2004
      Messages:
      17,679
      Media:
      3
      Albums:
      1
      Likes Received:
      564
      Trophy Points:
      143
      City, State:
      Knoxville, TN
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      98 Limited AWD
      There is a separate relay for the other locks besides the driver's door. The door lock main wires in the LF door are prone to having a break in one of them, two of my three trucks have that problem. So the lock issue might be a wire in the door jamb area cut, or a relay, or some alteration someone did before that is causing an issue.

      The PATS is more difficult to diagnose. After the simple things we've tried, it could be time to look at the shop manual diagnostics section, for the PATS. You do need to have at least three good keys, because if you lose one, then you have to pay for a special tool to be used to wipe the codes out of the PATS module. I'd buy another key or two now and see if you can add the codes yourself, if the two old keys will work when you try the programming. New keys on eBay etc, are/were only about $10 last I looked.

      The rear hatch key cylinder is an odd complicated part, it has a couple extra latch pieces to it. So that can be bought I think(I got one about 10 years ago($65)), but the hard part is R&Ring the thing. I believe any key cylinder can be altered by a locksmith to work with any key you have. They change the tiny tumblers inside, here it used to be about $40 to come to you and work on the vehicle.
       
    23. Nate_V8

      Nate_V8 Active Member

      Joined:
      August 15, 2009
      Messages:
      228
      Likes Received:
      5
      Trophy Points:
      18
      City, State:
      Montreal, Quebec
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      1998 XLT 5L AWD
      Does the RAP module have anything to do with the PATS system?

      Concerning the door locks
      On the inside of the frame, between the fusebox and drivers door, there was a white wire from the box I cut out spliced into a green wire in which was taped over (the tape was intact so it shouldn't be a problem). I couldn't get to it so without removing the emergency brake pedal system so I cut the white wire and taped it off and stuffed it in there. I could see a bundle of other wires in there, looked to be the bundle that travels under the floor along the door jams on the driver side.
      I doubt though that one green wires is stopping ALL the locks as the wire has another spliced into it, it's not cut or broken.

      It is possible I just got a transceiver ring with the same problem, it is old and used and is a common issue. The only way to know is to get my hands on a new one.... I hope ford still makes them. I haven't found anyone so far that wasn't able to fix the issue with a new transceiver ring. Maybe it's a ground issue? It's weird that it works sometimes. Maybe I can check the connections where it plug and plays, see if any pins are even slightly pushed out.
       
    24. koda2000

      koda2000 Explorer Addict

      Joined:
      September 2, 2011
      Messages:
      11,208
      Likes Received:
      537
      Trophy Points:
      143
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      x
      i could be wrong, but I don't think the RAP module has anything to do with PATS. It has more to do with key-less entry.
       
    25. Nate_V8

      Nate_V8 Active Member

      Joined:
      August 15, 2009
      Messages:
      228
      Likes Received:
      5
      Trophy Points:
      18
      City, State:
      Montreal, Quebec
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      1998 XLT 5L AWD
      Ok I was just checking.
       
    26. Nate_V8

      Nate_V8 Active Member

      Joined:
      August 15, 2009
      Messages:
      228
      Likes Received:
      5
      Trophy Points:
      18
      City, State:
      Montreal, Quebec
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      1998 XLT 5L AWD
      I've been thinking over it and I'm going to try something with the PATs ring. It doesn't make any sense that it works sometimes and other times it doesn't. Even if I hold the ring up to the key it doesn't work sometimes yet all of a sudden it will work several times being fixed in place. It did this with the original and the used one I just got off ebay. I've been combing as many threads as possible on this and I found one who had the same problem and it ended up that someone before him cut off the plugs and spliced the wires directly together and added an extra ground. The extra ground was falling off and when he fixed the extra ground it was fine.

      I'm going to try pumping some dialectic grease into the plugs and see what happens, maybe even try splicing an extra ground into the original tranceiver ring. I thought it stopped working all together since I removed it because I held it up to the key ONCE and it didn't work so I assumed it was dead (this worked the first time I did this). But the used one I got off ebay did the same thing (didn't work) even when I held it up to key but I kept turning the key off and on and then it worked all of a sudden. Just like the original, just al of a sudden it would work and would work a few times and then nothing for a few times. Again I don't need to start the truck to know if it got the signal, as long as the check engine light comes on when I turn the key on, that means it will start. No check engine, no start, theft flashes quick when I try to crank it.

      I'm really thinking it might be a connection/bad ground. As an electronic device, it should work or not work but a sketchy connection can cause this problem, especially a sketchy ground..

      Unless I'm completely wrong haha.
       
      • Like Like x 1

    Share This Page







    We Support Our Troops!