How to: 4R70W Rebuild Diary Discussion, Questions, ETC

[erikg13]

Thanks for the replies guys.

I won't really be running any extra power through this transmission from the motor, just very large tires (38's lol) and I hear they can be hard on a transmission. I'm adjusting the rear gear ratio's accordingly for this to 4.88 from my stock 3.55. So that's why I was asking about the rear lube line. I think ill just go for it as tapping and running a line isn't hard.

The stub shaft on mine looks perfect actually, do I really need to replace it? I even have the one that Glacier identifies in his diary as the new stronger one without a taper or groove.

Also, I already bought a rebuild kit that includes all frictions and steels, plus the upgrade OD servo, and a trans-go shift kit. So everything's getting replaced except for the salvageable hard parts.

Thanks for your help guys

- Erik

 

[Glacier991]

Scuff your steels... and what make are the frictions? Hard to believe as it may be, FORD frictions in this trannie may be better than aftermarket. If your stub looks fine, use it. Just replace the shells as suggested.

The Diary is pretty comprehensive and as of the date I wrote it pretty all inclusive.

Good luck.

Glacier

 

[Glacier991]

How have you been Chris? We miss the discussions of the mysterious automatics. I'm still juggling too many things at once, and my 4R isn't done yet. I found .070 direct Kolenes, so now I need my direct piston machined down a hair.

Chris, did you see any merit in drilling all four direct drum holes larger, and cutting deep slots in the sun gear? I haven't tried to drill it yet, I'm thinking just opening up the two top holes and making shallow slots in the sun gear would be good.

I have been on the fence regarding drilling the holes... but so long as your pump pressures are good I imagine it is ok.

I am unfamiliar with the cuts in the sun gear idea... worry about integrity vs. improved fluid flow. Educate me.

I have missed the folks here... hope to be able to spend a littl emore time... life has gotten in the way to a degree.

Glacier

 

[erikg13]

Glacier - the frictions that came in this kit are all borg warner. Do you know if these are any good? I know borg warner is a good company for transfer cases but not sure about friction materials.

I will be replacing both shells as they're pretty cheap on ebay.

- Erik

 

[Glacier991]

BW is quality stuff.

All that said, you might re-read the section on frictions and see if you want to pop the extra in some places (Like the intermediate) See: http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158669

ps. The reverse shell on E-Bay is fine. I might buying consider the Sun Shell from FORD unless the E-Bay one is OEM FORD.

 

[erikg13]

I just went over the section on frictions and checked how many frictions I received in the kit and I think I should be ok. The intermediate comes with 4 frictions, the direct with 7 and the reverse with 4.

Here's a link to the kit I bought: http://www.700r4l60e.com/store/product.php?productid=382

Hmm, what you tell me about the sun shell concerns me now lol. The only one I could find on ebay says its a new aftermarket part. Any particular reason these aren't desirable?

Here's the link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260169395683&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT

Thanks,

- Erik

 

[CDW6212R]

What I learned recently from a very good 4R builder about frictions is this; Use Raybestos as the top choice, the cross hatched pieces. The rare blues and the late OEM's(98+) are all nearly as good. The smooth frictions should be avoided unless you are very familiar with them, and the drums provide solid high pressure to keep them from slipping.

I bought a high performance kit, with the alto reds and kolenes. After that discussion, I will not use the slick reds. I bought Raybestos frictions for about $85. The big kit came with thin .050 direct kolenes, which will fit seven frictions in the drum. Stock direct steels are .070, and i found a set of six .070 kolenes for about $36. Now I have to have my direct pressure plate machined slightly, I still want seven frictions.

The point of the larger holes in the direct drum is to increase fluid possible to the planetary. To get there the fluid runs inside the sun gear to either end. The one end is blocked in the (direct drum is it?), but the gear end is in the planetary against a bearing. By cutting across the back face of the sun gear, extra fluid can come out and out to the planetary bearings and gears. I think it's a minor issue, likely most helpful in high rpm and power vehicles.

 

[Glacier991]

The Sunshell has the planetary gear welded to it. your failure is evidence of the stresses it faces. I do not necessarily trust Chinese aftermarkets in all cases but freely admit they get better and better... I have no reason to cast aspersions against them, except to oberve that FORD has a continuing obligation under warranty they need to consider when the design parts for longevity and strength. Aftermarket does not have that to consider - easy to cut corners. - of course a string of early failures might doom them as well... so a balancing act i suppose. I am neither pro OEM, nor anti OEM, not pro aftermarekt nor anti-aftermarket. It all depends.

Now that said, you COULD point out that yours failed and WAS ALSO OEM. And, in that regard, if you chose to make it, point taken. Yet...all in all... Me, I'd opt for OEM anyway.

Glacier.

ps. I think OEM frictions post 2000 for this transmission (all reverse compatible for the most part) may be the best there are - hands down (and they may very well be Raybestos manufactured). Not an easy thing for me to say as I have felt OEM's have tried unnecessarily to save money here over time... but I definitely believe it true in the case of the Intermediates in this tranny..... but they cost... $10 a friction ! Directs I care less about. Once locked they stay locked in forward gearing - it is holding power once engaged in them that matters.

I often find OEM's still have 95% of the friction material when I mic em. They wore in and have held together well. S'why I said you might be able to reuse em.

Glacier

pps. Agree on the smooth alto frictions... no.

 

[erikg13]

Alright, Thanks for the input Glacier. And I definitely understand why you would prefer OEM. I think what I'm gonna do is find out how much the part is from Ford, and if the price is reasonable I'll buy it from them.

The OEM part handled my abuse very well really... I drove the truck extremely hard and had a broken 1-2 accumulator spring and the line pressure turned up in the programming. So the 1-2 shifts were extremely firm. Even considering this the tranny made it to 130K miles on the original build. So I will listen to your advice and see if I can get the OEM part at a reasonable price.

Thanks again,

- Erik

 

[Glacier991]

Don't blame yourself for the 1-2 accumulator spring failure... it is common.

Glacier

 

[erikg13]

Alright, So I dropped by the Ford dealer today to get a price quote on the sun shell and they gave me a price of $189.62...

That's just a bit too steep for me lol, so I think I'm going to risk it and buy the aftermarket ebay part since it's only 75 and shipping.

Also, I thought it might be helpful to others that they changed the part number for the sun shell from the one in the diary.

The new part number on the quote is: 4L3Z-7D234-AA

On the quote, in the description section, its says "KIT." I asked the parts guy about this and he said it probably comes with some seals or something as a kit now.

- Erik

 

[CDW6212R]

That sun shell is $138 from Tasca Ford, my choice for Ford parts when you can wait for it to ship. Ford had to order most of the trans parts I bought this Spring.

4L3Z-7D234-AA
http://www.tascafordparts.com//index.do

 

[erikg13]

hmm, that is $40 cheaper than from the dealer, but with shipping its $65 more than ebay...

I don't like to cut corners though, so if i can't find a better price I'll prob order it from Tasca.

Thanks CDW6212R :biggthump

- Erik

 

[erikg13]

So it turns out the reason Ford's part number for the Sun Gear Shell changed is because it apparently comes together with a new Sun Gear now as well. This is why the description stated it was a "kit." Just letting anyone know so that they're not surprised to get a new sun gear as well.

This is also why the price jumped on the Sun Shell from $80 like Glacier states in his diary to $137.

- Erik

 

[CDW6212R]

Yes, I bought mine that way. Ford does that a lot, and often. The planetary is really high now.

 

[nblanton]

I have a problem with a 1995 T-bird 4.6L 4R70W. I inherited the car from a former roommate for lack of payment before he move out. I figured I could sell the car for something so I agreed to take it. When I got in the car for the first time, it wouldn't go into forward gears unless you got the RPM's up to around 2500 or so. Once engaged, the car would shift perfectly as long as it didn't come back to a full stop. Reverse works fine. I jerked the tranny out, and went looking for a replacement to find that they were rather pricey. So I decided to see if I could rebuild the thing or at least correct the problem. I found your rebuild diary, and tore the thing apart. The first thing I noticed was the circlip that goes into the first set of clutches was laying in between the pump and the gear set along with the plastic thrust washer. I ordered replacement parts, along with new accumulators, seals, and gaskets and put everything back together. I figured that correcting this problem would have solve something, but it has not. I still have to rev the engine up to get engagement in all forward gears, but have good shifting after that. It actually shifts really hard into gear when it does go, usually chirping the tires if I don't back off the gas quickly after I feel it engage. I have this problem regardless of the gear ( D, 2, or 1) or OD on or off. Where else should I look, or what did I do wrong. I really would like to get rid of this car and would like it to run. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[erikg13]

Hey nblanton,

I did a search on google and found a page describing what appears to be your problem as a forward clutch failure.

Here's the link:

http://www.becontrols.com/ourfaqs/aodetroubleshoot_2.htm#03170577

It's question #3 on that page.

- Erik

 

[nblanton]

Yeah, I actually read that before I pulled the tranny and did what repairs that I ended up doing. Originally, I was only just going to get a used one from a yard, but they were prohibitively expensive, or not warrentied. It was only after I had the tranny out, and couldn't find one to replace the old one with did I think about fixing the old one. When I found the broken parts that were behind the pump (the intermediate sprag retainer and the thrust washer) did I think that that may have been the problem, so I bought those, along with all the accumlators that have been recomended for replacement on this and other forums. So, what are the proper pressures?

Also, this part from Sonnex:

76890-01K AODE 4R70W transmission, 1-2 accumulator repair kit

The description of this part seems to imply that it will fix a low pressure problem that causes a delay to engage to first gear. How do I determine if the 1-2 accumulator is the culprit, if I find that I do have low pressures? I really don't want to throw good parts into a tranny that doesn't need them. Any help would be appreciated. And, if the line pressures are good, what is the best way to determine if the clutches are bad or not?

 

[junior8199]

New guy here. I have a 97 F150 4x4 with a 4.6. I'm in the process of re-gearing and want to get the speedometer as close as possible. I'm going from a 3.73 (stock) to a 4.56 setup with 33" tires. I know there's a gear in the tranny that needs changed since the speedo is not electronic. Question is, how many teeth does the drive gear have (7 or 8 I'm assuming)? Or can anyone just tell me which matching speedo gear i need to buy? Thanks

 

[Cobraguy]

Here is how I calculate for a new speedo gear. Take what you have and run it at exactly 60 mph (indicated) for one measured mile. See how long it takes to go that mile in seconds. The more miles you run it at exactly 60 mph, the more accurate your measurement. Calculate your actual speed by the time it took to cover the distance. Let's say your speedo indicated 60 mph, but your calculations said you were only going 54 mph. That's 6 mph under indicated...or 10% less than indicated. You need to speed up the speedometer. If you have an 18 tooth driven gear, and you need to speed it up 10%, you remove 1.8 teeth. So go to a 16 tooth gear. This method has always got me very, very close. Huge changes may take an adapter or a different drive gear too.