Dealer "repaired" my catalytic converters?

[PJ_10]

Hello, I've been a long-time browser of this site since I'm the original owner of my 2002 Explorer XLT, but I had some service done recently and it just doesn't sit right with me. At the time, I just needed to get my car repaired ASAP and now I feel so stupid that I may have put too much trust in the service advisor. I've always had this dealer repair anything beyond what I wanted to personally work on, such as brakes, rear springs, and never felt like I may have been "had" until now.

Basically, the Explorer stalled as I was driving, wouldn't stay running more than a few seconds, so I had it towed to the dealer and they found 1) animal damage to the spark plug wires and some of the cooling hoses, but also 2) said the catalytic converters were plugged.

According to the advisor, the OEM Ford catalytic converter parts would be approx. $1.5k, although with rusty bolts he said they might have issues with needing to drill out and re-tap so he estimated it could be up to $3k for replacing them. Claimed it could be very labor intensive. Other option is to "repair" the catalytic converters which sounded better since he said they'd still replace some of them. Car's not worth all that much after all these years, so I didn't want to put a ton of money into it but I needed it to run properly. For the replaced hoses/wires and the catalyic converter "repair", they charged me approx. $1.7k claiming it was so labor intensive. I would never have agreed with that but did since he said they'd replace parts in the catalytic converter assembly (he claims he never told me that, so frustrating). Anyway, I wanted to ask if anyone has ever heard of this being done to catalytic converters, and if that amount seems crazy, which I am expecting to hear. Again, I had a lot going on at the time and just needed the repair to be done and trusted the guy, but I feel awful about it now as nothing at all was replaced with the exhaust system and some of it is my word against his and he denies telling me what I know I heard. Thanks for any helpful info, sorry for the long post.

 

[Hugh Janus]

So why are you posting here? I got lost.....

 

[96firephoenix]

So why are you posting here? I got lost.....

Looks like he wants to know if he got taken for a ride by the service guy:

Anyway, I wanted to ask if anyone has ever heard of this being done to catalytic converters, and if that amount seems crazy, which I am expecting to hear. Again, I had a lot going on at the time and just needed the repair to be done and trusted the guy, but I feel awful about it now as nothing at all was replaced with the exhaust system and some of it is my word against his and he denies telling me what I know I heard.

Looks like you got taken for a ride by the service guy. Only "repair" I've heard of for Catalytic converters is to break and remove the catalyst or to install a "test pipe" that turns your catalytic converter into a straight pipe that looks like a catalytic converter from the outside. A Ford dealer will deny that they did this work from here until the cows come home, as both methods are pretty illegal in most states, and at the very least illegal (fraudulent) to present as a dealer-authorized repair.

After the mess I had getting my Y-pipe down, $3k sounds like a pretty accurate price to replace the cats.

 

[lincolnshibuya]

the guy is enjoying his commission

first of all, don't trust your dealer even they treated you with free donuts and coffee on the waiting room.. the issue might just be simply a bad coil and/or plugs and cleaning of IAC/throttle body and has nothing to do with your cats..

 

[PJ_10]

Looks like he wants to know if he got taken for a ride by the service guy:

Thanks, that what what I was trying to ask. The advisor explained it as if they gutted two of the three cats, which like you said seems like it could be a legal issue so I am surprised they would even do that sort of thing. The invoice does list the work as a catalytic converter repair without replacement - I'm not sure if I should bring it up to the general manager, BBB, etc. if this was a repair option the dealer provided. No CEL or anything so far.

 

[PJ_10]

the guy is enjoying his commission

first of all, don't trust your dealer even they treated you with free donuts and coffee on the waiting room.. the issue might just be simply a bad coil and/or plugs and cleaning of IAC/throttle body and has nothing to do with your cats..

I don't plan on going back to them anymore, for sure. Thanks for the advice.

 

[imp]

@96firephoenix
"After the mess I had getting my Y-pipe down, $3k sounds like a pretty accurate price to replace the cats."
Admittedly, the job looks pretty involved. I have the 4.0L SOHC, cat problems, studied the setup. Connection at the rear muffler flange has special bolts, with what appear to be spacers between the flanges, to control gasket compression (?) and heavy coil springs beneath the bolt heads. Nuts look round, almost no hex left, rusted away (160K). Definitely a slice-off proposition. Not a big deal there.

Up front, threads still visible on manifold studs, but really rusted. Nuts loosenable, no idea, but I'll find out. If the hex nuts hold up, an impact will loosen or break off the studs. Ain't seen one yet I was not able to get apart. Worst case: cut off pipes below manifolds, weld in new parts.

Another headache: After the wye meets it's other pipe on the drivers side, it passes ABOVE the frigging rear crossmember! So, you
"had a mess" with yours, I would like to hear more about that, if you are willing. Granted, a VERY labor intensive job, but, $3,000?? That's what my brand new '65 Mustang cost WITH the High Performance Package!! Gosh, am I old, or what? imp

 

[TechGuru]

WTF IS GOING ON HERE?! YOU CAN REPLACE YOUR ENTIRE EXHAUST SYSTEM YOURSELF FOR UNDER $1000 !!! CATs for under $500!

Entire 3 CAT assembly $341.79
http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=3088479

Entire CARB compliant 3 CAT assembly for California and New York $472.79
http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=6088248

 

[ptf18]

Fellows: May be a "silly" question but how can you tell if your CATS are/have failed?

 

[96firephoenix]

"had a mess" with yours, I would like to hear more about that, if you are willing. Granted, a VERY labor intensive job, but, $3,000??

WTF IS GOING ON HERE?! YOU CAN REPLACE YOUR ENTIRE EXHAUST SYSTEM YOURSELF FOR UNDER $1000 !!! CATs for under $500!

I think both of you are forgetting that he had this done at a Dealer, so that's $3000 dealer repair dollars. Obviously you can replace it all on your own for under $1000, especially if you're willing to break stuff and not buy dealer-priced parts to replace it.

As for the mess that I had: I had one nut round off and one stud break out of the exhaust manifold. I had to bust out the death wheel to cut the stud with the rounded nut, then get the remnants of both out. Dealer prices: probably about $500 for the replacement manifold compared to just having one in the parts pile. Took me a total of 4 hours of finagling... about $450 for that labor. So we've racked up $950 of dealer repair dollars just to get the driver's side manifold off.... like I said, easily $3000 (at a dealer).

 

[2Trux]

Fellows: May be a "silly" question but how can you tell if your CATS are/have failed?

I think the 2 easiest ways are; no power, cats might be plugged. Fails emissions, cats may be bad or gutted.
I believe the OBD2 cars have an extra O2 sensor to check cat efficiency and will set a code if they are not working well.

 

[imp]

Fellows: May be a "silly" question but how can you tell if your CATS are/have failed?

@ptf18
That's part of the weird equation. Yes, partial clogging increases back-pressure, kills power, heats up everything in front of the cat higher than it should be, but clogging is a subjective thing which happens in varying degrees. Might or might not "throw" trouble codes. For example, SOMETHING is telling my PCM to throw "HO2S Heater Resistance Pos. 1 Bank 1", even though all resistances involved, harness, sensor resistance, are as expected to be. Banging the cat a bit got rid of that code for 1500 miles, now it's back.

So cat failure can be a so-so thing. Some believe replacement routinely at 100K is a good idea. Normally, I would disagree, as what works is working; ;leave it alone, IMO. In the case of cats, I'll back off and relent-- replace them. Having cut one in half once, I can tell you it's easy to see it becoming sooty and clogged. Picture a window-screen sized mesh which runs the length of the cat, like very fine tubes side by side. Now push all that exhaust gas through it.

No question is "silly", IMO. Except in my case of asking my wife what day it is! imp

 

[PJ_10]

I appreciate all of the feedback. I realize the dealer labor is higher than other places, but I am mostly concerned about the fact that they charged over $1k in labor for gutting two catalytic converters. I don't know if that's really how long it would take with rust issues, etc, but the service guy insisted it is very labor intensive.

If it's also a potential legal issue as it basically tampers with the emission system, I'm surprised the dealer/certified tech would even offer that option - think there's any recourse at this point?

 

[imp]

@PJ_10 ....." think there's any recourse at this point?"

Consider your options. Become a top-notch EFI master of understanding, how, I have no idea, submit to acceptance of being screwed-over by the "system" of vehicle repair, have the exhaust system replaced and pray, and after that, if necessary, PREY.
imp

 

[Tech By Trade]

If your truck isn't throwing a CEL they never "gutted" the cats. They replaced them. The second set of 02 sensors would be ratting them out right now if they did gut them and your car would be getting horrible gas mileage running in loop.

 

[96firephoenix]

If your truck isn't throwing a CEL they never "gutted" the cats. They replaced them. The second set of 02 sensors would be ratting them out right now if they did gut them and your car would be getting horrible gas mileage running in loop.

gut the cats, detune the sensor, charge $1000. 3-step hack job that won't throw any lights, and then if you get called on it, deny, deny, deny.

I'm not saying this was done to OP, but it's not unheard of from sketchy shops... less so from dealers though.

@PJ_10, what state do you live in? that would really determine how illegal the process I've described is. keep in mind, that I'm operating 100% on assumptions, and have no way for you to determine what was done, short of looking at the vehicle and taking the exhaust apart to examine it.

 

[PJ_10]

If your truck isn't throwing a CEL they never "gutted" the cats. They replaced them. The second set of 02 sensors would be ratting them out right now if they did gut them and your car would be getting horrible gas mileage running in loop.

I did physically check the exhaust system, and the only parts they replaced were oxygen sensors and a few bolts. The service guy described the process of "going in and breaking up/scraping out" and that all of the work on the cats was internal.

what state do you live in?

I'm in Illinois, Chicago area, so we do have required emissions testing. I was reading a bit about the state laws, and it did sound like there could some issues with tampering. My invoice does show a repair of plugged catalytic converters with no replacement, so it seems that there are only few ways to do that and all may be considered tampering.

 

[lincolnshibuya]

@PJ_10

I think you have a case against the dealer here and probably make them the proper repairs (and compensate you) . Tampering any emission related device is a federal offense, I don't think gutting the cats without replacing it with a new one is the proper procedure for the fix. They better explain what they've done or they could get a fine.. do it before Trump closes the EPA

 

[PJ_10]

@PJ_10

I think you have a case against the dealer here and probably make them the proper repairs (and compensate you) . Tampering any emission related device is a federal offense, I don't think gutting the cats without replacing it with a new one is the proper procedure for the fix. They better explain what they've done or they could get a fine.. do it before Trump closes the EPA

Haha, yeah that's true - I'll probably try to go talk to one of the recommended independent shops in the area and see what they think or if they'd have a way to inspect the cats to tell me what was actually done internally. It's probably not something a lawyer would need to be involved with as it wasn't a huge amount of money for the repair, but I want to get as much together as I can before going to the general manager to see what he thinks of this "repair" they did. Unless it's better to get feedback from the state AG or EPA rather than go right to the place that did this in the first place.

 

[PJ_10]

I probably should have mentioned earlier, but my Explorer has just over 100k miles on it, the repair was completed within the last few weeks and I have only driven it maybe 10 miles since getting it back.