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Hydro Assist Fuel Cell. Increase gas mileage 50%?

Discussion in 'Hybrids, Electric, Hydrogen, Bio-diesel, E-85, Fue' started by mp88, March 17, 2008.

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    1. mp88

      mp88 Member

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      First off, I wasn't quite sure where to post this.

      In my little morning internet searches for performace parts, I came across a link to this system.

      http://www.energyempire.com/hafc.html

      Proficient product or scam?
      The manufacturer((s)?) claim that this product, with all the computer tuning (done for $100), will give you a minimum of a 50% increase in gas mileage.

      The claim is also that some cars will receive over a 100% increase in fuel economy, such as a Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic.

      Opinions?
      Objections?
      If Aldive added this could his explorer get 40mpg?:p:
       
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    3. briwayjones

      briwayjones Elite Explorer

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      I don't know about that specific system whether it's a scam or not but there are systems like that that produce Hydrogen add it to the fuel mixture and can increase mileage. There are other threads on here talking about that. I don't think it's likely to give you a 50% increase in mileage. Maybe in something like a Honda Civic but not an Explorer.
       
    4. aldive

      aldive Elite In Memoriam

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      Very interesting.
       
    5. BrooklynBay

      BrooklynBay Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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    6. Turdle

      Turdle Check it out Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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      Moved
       
    7. dogfriend

      dogfriend Human-Animal Hybrid Elite Explorer

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      Too bad its not true. I could add it to my Prius. I get 48 -50 now; with that thing I could get 100 mpg.

      My opinion is that it is in fact a scam. The reason I believe it is a scam, is that for it to work the way they describe, it would violate the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. How do you use electrical energy from the alternator to split Hydrogen and Oxygen, then get back more energy to power the car? It would be a perpetual motion machine.

      Anyway that's just my opinion.
       
    8. calisoundmix

      calisoundmix Active Member

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      I totally agree with you, it's also a little suspicious that they have so many testimonies from mechanics, yet they can't name a single mechanic by name or the shop he works at that endorses this product. the way our patent system works you don't have to prove a product works, you just need a unique idea, there have been countless news stories over the past 30 years about saving gas with water and ways to increase your fuel economy dramatically, yet not one of them has panned out.
       
    9. dlk

      dlk New Member

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      I disagree, at least in part, and here is my opinion....

      According to that site, there are 4 different parts to the system. The 'Covalizer' additive sounds a little like adding acetone to the fuel, and might help a little. The 'HAFC Optimizer' is just a computer add-on, so I don't know anything about it. The 'HAFC Vaporizer' is magnets on the fuel line, which is a load of poopoo. The main part of the system is the Hydrogen fuel cell, which is supposed to produce hydrogen and oxygen gas from water. If it works, I believe it might increase mileage by as much as 20%. Might.

      The reason I don't think it would be a 'perpetual motion machine' is that it adds water as a second fuel source. If the water can be converted to gas easily enough it would be a very cheap and readily available fuel. I know that's a big IF, and I am NOT saying that this thing works, only that it is feasible.

      I have heard of a system that uses the electrical energy created by the alternator to power an electric super charger, which made the engine more powerful, so why couldn't you use electricity to get better mileage somehow?
       
    10. dogfriend

      dogfriend Human-Animal Hybrid Elite Explorer

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      Got any dyno tests from an independent source to show how much power is gained by the electric supercharger?
       
    11. dlk

      dlk New Member

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    12. dogfriend

      dogfriend Human-Animal Hybrid Elite Explorer

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      The left side of the graph is interesting - it indicates that the thing kills your available hp below about 3800 rpm. It isn't a perpetual energy scheme like the hydro assist - it pulls energy out of your battery (833 W ) to provide boost - but your alternator must recharge the energy (pulling power from the engine) . Good thing it only works at WOT, otherwise you would probably be killing batteries and alternators every week.
       
    13. dogfriend

      dogfriend Human-Animal Hybrid Elite Explorer

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      On a Yahoo Discussion group I belong to, (PTS - Prius Technical Stuff), someone asked "Is this Real" referring to the water4gas website. Here is one of the responses that I thought was very clear (and I agree with):

       
    14. fourplay

      fourplay New Member

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      wow i just lost interest in trying out these "fuel saver kits"
       
    15. dogfriend

      dogfriend Human-Animal Hybrid Elite Explorer

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    16. CHADD

      CHADD New Member

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      hho injection isnt a scam... and doesnt really give you a 50% increase... more like a 30% increase....


      it does help make the engine run cleaner, slightly more power... and better gas mileage...

      *gas mileage* being the key word..... you are supplementing hydrogen gas for gasoline... so you are still burning the same amount of total fuel... but less gasoline since your injecting hydrogen into the system... so its not really defying any laws or what not... buddy is working on a kit for his V6 F150... gets 29-30mpg with a supplemental kit installed.... here is a link...

      http://www.v6f150.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14610

      my apology if the link offends anyone from being directed to another site... just helping getting some info out there...

      Im getting ready to make a kit for my 97 eclipse... if it works good... going to put it on my 2000 explorer...
       
    17. MrMcKague

      MrMcKague New Member

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      Has anybody tried hydrogen in a 2005 XLT?
       
    18. BrooklynBay

      BrooklynBay Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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    19. rileyrs

      rileyrs Active Member

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      thought id just add this in:

      my grandfather knows a professor at csu and he did testing for two years on hho, and he seemed to think that the best way to do it was use stainless stell plates put together, for the most output.
      and as far as moddifying the computer, he said not to use the defices that tell the computer to inject less fuel, (like efie) as its not as reliable, but to actually have a way to constantly modifly the computer on demand, which takes lots of equipment.
      those were just his tips to do, IF your going to try it
      he tested it on 3 different vehicles, and his conclussion was that its far more effective on a carbed vehicle where you can quickly change and monitor the fuel given to the engine.
      also another thing he said about it that many things online lie to you about is that the hho isnt actually burning along with the gasoline, since it doesnt burn nearly as efficiently in a gas engine, so really, the hho is just helping the gasoline burn more fully, which is why being able to fine tune it is essential.
      btw all the ppl out there who say it doulbed there mileage is fake, and even a 30% increase in not realistic,most like people that are getting this much of an increase is because they are using devices like efie too much, and are running way lean, and are gonna have serious engine damage soon.

      the final conclussion after our conversation is: its not a magical easy way to improve anything on your car. you may gain 1 mpg, if you put tons of time and money into a good system and tons of tuning.
      all the cheap kits off ebay arent gonna do any good.
      and just like dogfriends post said, the power you use to create it, really isnt made back up with the hho, so there is minimal differences in total effeciency.
      so basically, its not a driveway mod thats gonna save money, you probly wont lose more than a 100 bucks if you do it yourself, but to do it well, its going to have to be an expensive system, with lots of time an money put into it

      i spoke with him for a while about hho and learned alot , and it convinced me not to do any kind of hho install, hoping to gets tons of power and mileage.
       
    20. dantefumi

      dantefumi New Member

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      Second Law

      from the verry little information you have given on your analysis of the second law of thermo, I don't see how it would violate it. What are you inputs, and how did you obtain a measurable amount of energy input. What are you stating are your out puts? What efficiency are you assuming? Have you tested the First law of Thermo dynamics? What was your procedure? I'm sorry for all of the questions, but being a chemical engineering student with a minor in Mechanical and Petroleum Engineering for Oklahoma State University I can't help but question your methods. It's what any good engineer would want to know...
       
    21. dogfriend

      dogfriend Human-Animal Hybrid Elite Explorer

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      Read post #12 above in this thread.
       
    22. FIND

      FIND Well-Known Member

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      It very clearly violates the laws of thermodynamics.... You are using power from the engine to break water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen, then getting power back through combustion, which is basically a chemical reaction that combines hydrogen and oxygen where you collect some of the energy released by that chemical reaction which is the same energy you inputted earlier to break it apart. To get a net gain in energy, you would have to be operating at greater than 100% efficiency, which is impossible. Now consider that gas internal combustion engines operate around 30% thermal efficiency. Unless you are collecting energy from some type of thermonuclear reaction involving that hydrogen and oxygen, you are never going to be able to get more energy out of it than you inputted. The entropy of a closed system cannot increase beyond its inputs. This is first year physics and chemistry stuff...

      Take a moment and ask what is the chemical composition of petroleum based gasoline. Next, ask what the thermal efficiency of using gasoline or hydrogen in an internal combustion engine. Please note at this point that Hydrogen combustion is far less energetic by volume than gasoline, then ask the chemist in yourself how this will increase the thermal efficiency of an internal combustion engine.

      The ONLY reasons anyone EVER experiences a gain from HHO are:

      1: The ultra lean burn state that they force their engine into, which could be done just as easily running a higher octane fuel, water injection or many other methods that would give back higher returns than HHO generators. The time this is most beneficial is at cruising speeds, where engine power can be significantly reduced without having an impact on the vehicles ability to cruise down the road. This is why things like Warm Air Intakes or variable displacement works so well....

      2: The change in their driving habits that they subconsciously adopt when they are trying out this miracle fuel saving technology. EVERYONE does it, regardless of whether they think they do or not.
       
      Last edited: May 10, 2012
    23. jakegator

      jakegator Member

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      Hows it going I realize this is late but whatever. It does not violate any laws. First off you add water, second you add gas. It would violate all kinds of laws if it ran solely off of water which turned the engine and produced electricity from the alternator to produce more HHO. It does not do this (well idk about the one that this thread started with but the technology in general). You can think of the gas as being the part that produces power for the HHO (which you must add). The magnet things are crap. Its kinda like adding nitrous... sorta. I made a small engine work on this stuff as a supplement in high school to prove a concept. Stainless does work well however it is expensive, I used graphite electrodes from old lantern batteries at about 2.3 volts and 1 amp. The reason some people who have tried this say it does work is most likely because they did not re-program the computer. If you add it with out telling to computer to resitric gas it will still add as much gas as it wants becasue it is not designed to detect HHO. Just my 2 cents.
       
    24. FIND

      FIND Well-Known Member

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      You aren't burning water... You need to split the water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen. This requires electricity for electrolysis. The electricity comes from burning gasoline. This means your alternator has to generate more electricity, which means more drag on your engine. Therefore, you burn more gas to generate the hydrogen and oxygen gas. Then you add the "HHO" to the engine to burn it as a replacement for the fuel. The total amount of energy you can get from burning the HHO will not exceed the energy you put into it to split the molecules. Combustion is just an exothermic reaction that joins the hydrogen and oxygen molecules. It takes just as much energy to split those molecules back apart. Since you are not able to use all of the energy from combustion, that means that part of the energy used to generate HHO is coming from burning gasoline.

      That is what we mean when we say you'd have to violate the laws of thermodynamics. You would have to get more energy out of the system than you put into the system for the system to increase the efficiency of your engine. The water is not carrying any energy that is accessible to you through the combustion process in an internal combustion engine. The bonds in the water require energy to break.

      Your only option to run your car on water or add water to make your car more efficient is to buy a Mr. Fusion. It's 2015, they should be out any day now.

      If these HHO generators worked, you can bet your bottom dollar that the auto manufacturers would super excited that they could spend a few extra bucks making these so they could meet fuel efficiency standards instead of the amount of money they spend on direct injection, turbochargers, engine design, transmissions with half a dozen forward gears, computer controls for dozens of sensors to optimize how the engine runs. We could all be driving down the road in big early 70s V8s with three speed transmissions instead of buying cars that auto manufacturers have invested billions of dollars into making them get incremental increases in power and efficiency.
       

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