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My new 347

Discussion in 'Need for Speed!' started by Dono, May 22, 2015.


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    1. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

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      I have no idea. Might be.
      At this point, if its the last time its worth it.

      He did want the block today, specifically. I think it's his plan to get started right away. The new bearings should show up tomorrow, and I'll run them straight down to him.
       
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    3. Josh P

      Josh P Shaggin Wagon Elite Explorer

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      Santa needs to put a 363 under the hood
       
    4. vroomzoomboom

      vroomzoomboom Elite Canuck STOCK SUCKS! Elite Explorer

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      and twin turbos! i'm sure i could find another one for you on kijiji (canada's craig list). isnt that how all this mess started in the first place lol
       
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    5. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

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      Yea, I think the mess really started with creating an oil leak installing the headers.
      The turbo system has been flawless.

      My wife always tells me bigger is better. lol. Unfortunately (or fortunately, it depends how you look at it) , I'm stuck with what I have. I just need to make it work.

      This time new head studs are going on the heads also. I have to wonder if this has been part of the issue all along, as it could be false torque readings as the heads are being torqued down to proper spec. I bought the head studs used, thinking they are re-usable so why not?

      So, block checked and fixed (de-decked, new bearings, and who knows what else), heads checked carefully (I know one is flat and straight), new mls gaskets, new head studs. If both surfaces are super flat and straight, head gaskets are new, new head studs.....what else could it be?

      Bearings are out for delivery, so I'll have them at the machine shop today.
       
    6. CDW6212R

      CDW6212R Hauls the mail. Elite Explorer

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      Sounds good, and if the machinist is proactive, show just enough excitement to keep them on it. The key to any machine work is how they see the customer, as a hard up racer or a broke and slow tinkerer. If they are active with it, be active in showing interest and mention your plans for a timetable to finish the reinstall. Good luck,
       
    7. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

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      I dropped off the bearings, but I probably should have given the crank a pull before ordering them. The thrust bearing is gone. They haven't pulled the crank yet and the machinist doesn't see it as a big deal.

      Their thinking is that the last machine shop didn't seat the thrust bearing properly or check thrust end play. I don't know for sure, but I do know this is the first thrust bearing issue I have had, so its not the torque converter pushing on the crank.

      He said he understands exactly what I've been thru and will go easy on me. I in turn mentioned not to bother wasting time on an estimate and just do what you feel is required.

      On the part that I am having fun with, the jands safeguard is going to be a fun project. John at j&s has been crazy responsive to my technical questions on how the logic of the vampire works. He also has different firmware's, depending what you are looking for. He's super passionate about what he does, and I love that.

      p.s. my wife knows nothing about this. I'd be out of the house with no vehicle if she knew.
       
    8. vroomzoomboom

      vroomzoomboom Elite Canuck STOCK SUCKS! Elite Explorer

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      REEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLY.........
      :D
       
    9. Josh P

      Josh P Shaggin Wagon Elite Explorer

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      My wife let's me have my toy cars, I'd be out of the house cause of my frustration.
       
    10. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

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      My frustration is obviously leaking everywhere. Being down a vehicle for extended periods isn't helping the household temperature either.
      Of course, when asked what I want for Christmas, the answer is nothing. The truck is more than taking up my Christmas gift money.

      The Safeguard unit does make for a pretty cool gift though. No one that isn't in to this stuff could ever really understand why though.
       
    11. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

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      Ok, small update as I need a break from thinking about work stuff.

      Short block is in at the machine shop. I checked with them last week and they had stripped the short block. Very unusual wear on the cylinders. Looks like really bad piston slap kind of wear. Measurements hadn't been taken yet, so there is no conclusion yet.
      My personal conclusion is somewhere along the line, the holes became to big for the slugs. I'm drawing my own conclusion, but hopefully the machine shop can just find another block and re-machine it to my current rotating assembly. That's probably going to be the cheapest solution. More to come on this.
      No point in sweating it. Friends and relatives of mine are being diagnosed with cancer these last few weeks, and I know they would much rather have my problems.

      I have my J&S Safeguard. Its too cold to want to be in the garage, or I'd be looking for a hole in the firewall to run the wiring already. I don't think it would have worked very well anyway with all that piston slap going on.

      I ordered a new oil pump, as the last one is clearly trash from all the different metal bits running thru it. I thought about a high volume pump, but there are risks with to much oil flowing (running the pan dry(might be a wives tale as at 60psi the pump dumps the excess right to the pan anyway)). The stock oil pan can't support a HV pump anyway, as the bottom of the pump will not allow the oil pan to go on properly (A hv oil pump is longer). So, the next best thing is a Melling 10687 race pump. I also read about blueprinting a pump to make sure it runs optimally.

      I found a thread over on sbftech (See below for quote) on how to blueprint. The only thing I will do is check the gears heights to the bottom of the pump plate. I'll make both gears the same height, and the bottom pump plate to gear measurement .006. Should be easy. Who knows, the 'racing' pump might already be extremely close. I don't have to worry about a freeze plug as the 10687 pump has a screw in plug.

      Here's my shameless cut/paste on pump blueprinting.
      "Just so happens I have a book that says the following about blue-printing a pump. It's called Mustang Performance by William R Mathis. Hopefully the info is not too out-dated or anything but here goes; everything here is going to be copied directly from his book.

      Step 1. Completely disassemble the pump, inspecting every piece for unusual machining marks, burrs or casting irregularities. This includes the removal of the plug that secures the oil pressure spring (pry it out or drill a small hole and use a slide hammer to remove it)

      Step 2. Secure the pump housing in a vice with soft jaws, and carefully radius and blend the oil port with a Dremel or porting tool. The port-to-block exit should be ported out to the diameter of the gasket.

      Step 3. Mic the thickness of the two rotors and lap the thickest piece on 180-grit wet/dry sandpaper until the two pieces are matched in thickness.

      Step 4. Install the rotors in the housing and check the clearances as follows: rotor to rotor .003" to .006"; rotor to housing end .002" to .004"; rotor to housing, internal .006" to .011".
      Use a rotary flapper wheel to increase clearance on the inside of the outside rotor to increase clearance on housing for the outside rotor or to increase clearance on housing for the outside rotor. To decrease clearance on rotor to housing end, lap housing on 180 grit wet/dry sandpaper. Do the same to increase clearance except sand the rotors. Take your tim, and check clearances often. It's a lot easier to take more off than to add it back. Make sure the sandpaper is on a flat surface and use generous amounts of water or cutting oil.

      Step 5. Once the proper clearances are set, use a dremel or high-speed rotary file and put a slight chamfer on the edges of the rotors, both top and bottom.

      Step 6. If you have the bucks and the time have the rotors coated with one of the slick processes provided by HPC or Poly Dyn. This will significantly improve the life of the oil pump. If you are a road racer this is particularly important to you.

      Step 7. Lap the inside surface of the end plate on 280 grit wet/dry sandpaper secured to a flat surface. Alternately, valve lapping compound on a flat steel plate or thick piece of glass can be used. It is very important to get this piece smooth and flat.

      Step 8. Clean all pieces thoroughly with Tide soap and a bottle brush. Flush all pieces with plenty of water, then rinse with clean var-sol or spray with a water displacing fluid like WD-40.

      Step 9. Reinstall the stock oil pressure spring. Shimming the end with two (2) 3/8" SAE washers. This will bring the oil pressure up to 100 PSI cold. A new plug should be installed. These are generally available at any auto parts store that carries Dorman Freeze Plugs.

      Step 10. Reassemble the rotors, coating each generously with petroleum jelly. This will ensure immediate priming.

      Step 11. Install the end plate using grade 12 bolts that have been drilled for safety wire. Safety wire the bolt heads.

      Step 12. Clean the pump-to-block mating surfaces with lacquer thinner. Install the pump to block with a new gasket using grade 12 studs with nuts and bolts that have been drilled for safety wire. When installing the oil pump be sure to include a new competition oil pump driveshaft. This is cheap insurance against high-rpm failure.
      The oil pump driveshaft has a retainer disc on the distributor end that prevents the shaft from being pulled out of the pump when the distributor is removed. Failure to observe the correct installation procedure (retainer end into distributor shaft) will become apparent the first time you attempt to remove the distributor and the shaft takes a bath in the oil pan. When the pump and shaft have been properly fastened, recheck the pump shaft one last time and then safety wire the pump to the block nuts and bolts."
       
    12. CDW6212R

      CDW6212R Hauls the mail. Elite Explorer

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      Stay with a normal volume oil pump. The high volume pumps put a lot more stress on the pump drive shaft, and the gears. You want those parts to live, and the extra volume isn't needed.

      My best wishes for your relatives and friends.
       
    13. Josh P

      Josh P Shaggin Wagon Elite Explorer

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      363 short block is a must.
       
    14. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

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      You must have caught me drueling over a dart block. I'm sure no one will ever really know what happened to my stock block.

      This is my last try though. If I get another fail, a stock block 302 is going in with my tw heads and intake.
       

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    15. Josh P

      Josh P Shaggin Wagon Elite Explorer

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      It is insane how much a stock 302 block will flex under load.
       
    16. CDW6212R

      CDW6212R Hauls the mail. Elite Explorer

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      A stock block should do fine with mild boost, the 10psi level and good A/F plus timing should not be too much for the block. I know the argument, and I'm going to go the same route with mild boost on the stock block. I want to get the entire operating system sorted out well, everything outside of the longblock, before investing in the high dollar stroker.

      I think you are almost there Don, that engine just seems to have had a few details holding it back.
       
    17. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

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      I think the short block has been cursed from day one. I agree that I don't want to make the power that necessitates going to a dart block. It just isn't necessary. That and setbacks like I'm having could be extremely expensive on a nice block. I do know the Dart block will give more horsepower with everything else being equal (no block flex as mentioned).

      I had a look at my new oil pump today. Cleaned it, checked rotor to end cap clearance, oiled it up, and re-assembled. The clearances are all far tighter than the blueprinting how-to I posted above. The pump runs super smooth, so I don't see a reason to screw with it. I will take my old pump apart at some point for educational purposes.

      Both rotors were exactly the same height (that I could measure), and rotor to end cap measured .002, far less than the .006 spec in the how-to. Here's some pics of the pump, also showing the differences between this one and the standard m68. This pump is a standard pressure/standard volume pump. Just a few upgrades, and I read that the tolerances are closer than the m68 (I'll check my old pump as I'm curious).

      rotors to housing clearance.jpg

      rotor support in end plate.jpg

      screw in oil pressure solenoid and spring.jpg
       
    18. vroomzoomboom

      vroomzoomboom Elite Canuck STOCK SUCKS! Elite Explorer

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      my old 302 lived with no problems with around 9lbs of boost, and i beat on it. don will back me up on that, as well as a few people i know on the east coast. the stroker i have now is a stock block with stroker guts in it, and i beat on it worse then the 302 (and have overheated it......twice....whoops), once again, don has really seen how abusive i am with it, but i am not pushing as much boost with it....yet.
      don has just had real bad luck. i mean REAL bad luck. he isnt doing anything wrong. he isnt skimping on parts. its just a big black cloud over it. i think i jinxed him even when we first stuffed the motor into it. sorry don :(
       
    19. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

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      I could very well be guilty of going to the wrong machine shop over and over. We will see if the new one I'm using works out better. They are a performance shop, and I guess this motor falls in to that category even though I havn't exactly pushed it.

      Whatever. We are on the right side of the dirt, and even when we do pass away we cant take anything with us. I'd sure like to get away from work and take a cheap holiday somewhere though :( Beach and beer. Cant beat that.

      And, thanks for the vote of confidence Tim.
       
    20. vroomzoomboom

      vroomzoomboom Elite Canuck STOCK SUCKS! Elite Explorer

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      joe and i were talking about this the other night when you told me what they found so far. we both were scratching our heads. and we both know joe is no dummy either.
       
    21. Josh P

      Josh P Shaggin Wagon Elite Explorer

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      I agree that Don has done a quality build with very good parts. I'm not knocking it, putting it down in any way. It is a fact that the stock block will distort under high power levels. Some people get 600-800 out of a stock block for a long time and others have them let go at 450. I think that you probably had a bad experience with the machine shop.
       
    22. delexploder

      delexploder Elite Explorer

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      When you blueprint the oiling system you need to do the whole thing, the guy i worked for , an engine builder , dose everything , drills every oil passage , like the crank , he enlarges the ports then champhers them the polishes the crank, also he will tap the plug holes and use pipe plugs instead of the little press in ones , his built motors run around 80 psi oil pressure , and he modifies the top gallys so the top end dosent starve , and he includes certain oil filters like a k&n or ford racing because a normal one will pop, as far as making the block survive in a stroker app, he taps the freeze plug holes , btw they are really casting holes , they get screw in pipe plugs with locktite and then he upgrades the caps with studs and a girdle , now the studs are another story, he has all the holes enlarged and uses a stud that fits tight in the non threaded hole of the head , cap, intake ect , and he also takes the time to not only balance and blueprint everything but also champher polish and surface everything including rings and bearings, and then everything gets cleaned at least 5or6 times , he has in the 20 years ive known him never had a motor failure,
       
    23. 4pointslow

      4pointslow Explorer Torture Tester Elite Explorer

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      Dono, you have done amazing work on this truck.
      I agree with Tim that you have just had bad luck. Maybe that engine block is cursed? lol.
      With a new machine shop, and maybe a new block?, it might all just come together.
      Wishing you all the success you deserve for all the hard work you have put into it.
       
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    24. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

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      Thanks 4point. I'll get to the machine shop and see where they are at with it this week.
      Judging from what looks like serious piston slap on the cylinders, I'm betting its either new pistons or new block. I'm betting that the cheapest route will be another block. Those Wiseco forged units are not cheap. There is also no way I could have done anything wrong that would have caused this. Something happened at the machining level somewhere along the line.
       
    25. 4pointslow

      4pointslow Explorer Torture Tester Elite Explorer

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      There are two things I can think of that would cause too much piston to cylinder wall clearance.
      One is overheating, the pistons swell up (expansion) and get scuffed(worn) by the cylinder walls.
      Then when the engine cools down the pistons contract but now they are thinner because of getting worn = too much clearance.

      The other is fuel wash from overly rich mixtures.
      If there is too much fuel going into the cylinders it can wash away the oil from the rings and cylinder walls.
      That leads to wear on both.

      Neither may be the case, just saying that these things can cause too much piston to cylinder wall clearance.
      So can an improperly machined block/wrong pistons.
       
    26. CDW6212R

      CDW6212R Hauls the mail. Elite Explorer

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      Ditto, the piston clearances are critical. They need to be as little as possible that the pistons can take. That's part of why forged pistons can be harder to run long term on the street. Forged pistons have to have more clearance because they expand a little more than cast crap.

      That's where piston selection is a big factor. You want pistons that can survive the application, and there are some different aluminum mixtures which can run at tighter clearances, even forged choices.

      Hopefully those Wiseco pistons are still okay and can be used again. Wiseco makes great pistons and clearanced right they can take a ton of abuse. That's a lot of why they are an expensive brand, they are worth it if the engine needs it.
       

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