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My new 347

Discussion in 'Need for Speed!' started by Dono, May 22, 2015.


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    1. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

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      Thanks John. Fuel wash could definitely have been a start of this.
      When James was trying to get the idle I was dealing with a super rich condition for a while.

      Don, I think the pistons are ok. Maybe even the block, but I want to have clearances as tight as possible, so there is a very good chance a different block will need to be re-machined and used.

      I don't want a sloppy motor, and would rather pay to make sure its all good.
       
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    3. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

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      Just checking in.
      -Crank NFG
      -Here's a cut/paste from the machinist on the piston to wall clearance "we are at .0075/.008 piston to wall clearance.... you pistons have collapsed at least .002"

      These were Wiseco pistons, so I have no idea what happened with the 'collapsing'.

      Machinist's recommendation is to bore the block over for 4.04 pistons and add new pistons to the bill.

      He also could see witness marks on a couple of pistons showing they were contacting the crank.

      I guess the up side of this is that these issues are being found and rectified. I'm going to have to spend a bunch of time checking TC clearances before the motor goes back on to make sure its not pressing on the crank. I'm not sure why the thrust bearing was taken out this time. That hasn't happened before.
       
    4. skpyle

      skpyle Elite Explorer

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      Aw hell...
       
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    5. vroomzoomboom

      vroomzoomboom Elite Canuck STOCK SUCKS! Elite Explorer

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      tell me again why they said the crank is nfg? because the thrust bearing dug into it? if you remember when that happen to mine, they were able to machine the crank, and get a oversized bearing. that way i didnt have to buy a new crank, and didnt have to rebalance it. now if they are saying the converter was pushing into the flex plate, i would also say get a new trans pump. thats what was my problem.
       
    6. 4pointslow

      4pointslow Explorer Torture Tester Elite Explorer

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      Were they forged pistons?
      Maybe you can pull the torque converter out to look at the part that goes into the trans pump to see if it is damaged?
       
    7. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

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      The crank is 'blue' in multiple locations, and scored all to sh!t in multiple areas also. I'm quite happy with the recommendation of replacement.
      A couple of the crank main caps are blue from heat also. I'm not sure if they will be replaced, but I hope so.
      The pistons were Wiseco (I paid for, but couldn't find any markings on the pistons to confirm). The pistons were a forged alloy that expands quite a bit and needed a bigger hole (I'd have to look at work tomorrow to quote the type). No matter what, somehow I ended up with a hole that was way to big. For what I'm doing, I think the pistons were the wrong alloy as I want a fairly tight piston to wall clearance as its a stock block anyway and I don't want a super noisy motor.

      In the next few weeks I'll get started again and pull the TC to inspect and replace the seal. I might as well, as I'm there anyway.

      I'll inspect the tc gear surfaces carefully. Here is where I'll be taking relevant info from: http://www.americanmuscle.com/tci-torqueconverter-auto-8010-install.html

      I never had an issue with thrust bearing before, so I'll be very careful and make sure measurements are good.
       
    8. gmanpaint

      gmanpaint Torsion Bar Free Elite Explorer

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      I just got caught up. I am at a loss for words, other then to say.... I'm sorry all this has happened. I might have thrown a match at it if it was me.
       
    9. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

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      Lets just say all I want to do is get this running.
      I haven't touched anything since the motor came out.

      I was so excited when I started this 2 years ago. Now all I feel is dread.
       
    10. Josh P

      Josh P Shaggin Wagon Elite Explorer

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      I wish you better luck. That m90 I got from you will spin again this year.
       
    11. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

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      Ok, that's fantastic news!
       
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    12. CDW6212R

      CDW6212R Hauls the mail. Elite Explorer

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      I'm hoping the next build lasts for years. It sounds kind of like the machining was poorly done, like the main bores were not honed true and/or the clearances varied a lot journal to journal. A bent crank would do that but that's very unlikely compared to sloppy machine work. I don't want to condemn the shop but the symptoms sound scary for a recently built engine.

      Did the crank move much front to back, that the trans needs some extra checks(pump gears etc)? Hopefully the trans and TC had nothing to do with the engine issue.
       
    13. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

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      Yup, with that thrust bearing wore out to nothing, there was a boat load of play in the crank.
      I'll be taking all kinds of measurements before the motor goes in. Also, I'll be checking crank play after the motor is in.
       
    14. CDW6212R

      CDW6212R Hauls the mail. Elite Explorer

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      The crank thrust damage issue used to be rare ages ago, it seems to have come up more in the last ten years than it ever did before. The newer transmissions after the first four speed automatics seem to have critical TC and pump installation issues, special tools etc. With older automatics, and the AOD/AODE/4R70W, they are all fairly simple to install. The pump is easy to install, and the TC is just slightly tricky to get it seated all the way in. Once in though, there is and has to be plenty of play front to back of the TC.

      The studs that mount the TC to the flexplate should easily push back into the flexplate and pull out to put the nuts on. I don't know how much less play is there when the TC is not engaged all the way, but I suspect it's so little that the studs won't push back through the flexplate at all. That's the TC forced forward up against the flexplate, which pushes against the crank(thrust bearing).

      I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, but I think a lot of newer wrench turners don't know these simple details. I think a lot of people are learning things on their own instead of having more experienced help from friends etc. Hopefully many of these build threads online do point out these details which experienced people take for granted. I've forgotten a lot of details, and have to go slow for any project so I can figure things out again.
       
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    15. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

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      Im hedging that this last motor install I didn't have the TC seated all the way against the trans as I am loosing (lost) patience with this whole thing. I have not had thrust bearing issues previously. Taking a few months off is a good thing. In a few weeks we will be out of the cold weather (at least hovering around freezing) and I'll get started. Maybe tonight I'll pull the TC off the Trans and start assessing damage/clearances.
       
    16. CDW6212R

      CDW6212R Hauls the mail. Elite Explorer

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      Hopefully the main pump is okay. The gears are an easy $20 pair to buy new, the pump I think I saw for under $120 when I was browsing recently. I was hunting for a new planetary set of parts for an AODE(close ratio(2/3 are closer together)).
       
      Last edited: February 21, 2017
    17. vroomzoomboom

      vroomzoomboom Elite Canuck STOCK SUCKS! Elite Explorer

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      as i had mentioned, i do believe if you didnt have it seated all the way in, the truck shouldnt have moved. maybe take the tc to trans tec and see what they say. they will be able to spot a problem a lot easier then you or i would. that and they are just down the road form you as well.
       
    18. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

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      TC to flex plate has 15/16 of an inch. Spec is 1 inch.
      Its a bit tight

      TC to flex plate.jpg
       
    19. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

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      TC pilot spec is 1/8 inch doing this. I have .004 ( 1/25 of an inch).
      This might be ok if the crank pilot hole is deep enough.

      The tc to flex mount is out by 1/16 inch. That could be a bit tight. I'll be asking more questions about this.

      All the splines on the Transmission look fine. I emailed this info to my engine guy. Neither of us want this to happen again. He's a great guy, but its far cheaper to not see him again.

      I'm thinking the TC is ok, as of all the times the motor has come out, this is the first thrust bearing issue.

      TC Pilot.jpg
       
      Last edited: February 28, 2017
    20. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

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      After numerous emails to transman304 with pictures, the conclusion is that the transmission did not cause the thrust bearing failure. I'll just have to be careful with my measurements and make sure that the torque converter will need to be pulled slightly forward when it bolts to the flex plate. Thank you transman304 for all the help.

      My pistons are in. Wiseco 4.04 boost pistons with a GFX ring package. They are things of beauti. It was explained to me that you can tell its a boost piston because the top ring is set lower on the piston. They sure are light.

      The machinist thinks he might have to take a few thou off the top of the pistons since the block is already zero decked and he will want to re-deck the block. He's not sure yet.

      Since the pistons were hitting the crank before, he will assemble the short block, make sure it rotates without anything knocking in to anything else, check all clearances, shave top of pistons as required, balance and re-assemble.

      Machinist says he doesn't want to see me again until I phone him and ask to have him build me a different motor for something else. lol.
       
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    21. CDW6212R

      CDW6212R Hauls the mail. Elite Explorer

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      Sounds great. When he's test fitting and adjusting clearances, include the piston to head distance. That's the quench which has a lot to do with power, efficiency, and avoiding detonation. Too much or little is not good, hit the middle range and it helps in all ways. About .030-.040" is what I've read of a lot. Most people don't even measure or consider it.
       
    22. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

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      I'm impressed with the attention to detail. I understand that you pay for the time spent, and I'm ok with that also. As long as there is value for the money spent.
       
    23. CDW6212R

      CDW6212R Hauls the mail. Elite Explorer

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      It does sound like you found a good shop to build the engine.
       
    24. 4pointslow

      4pointslow Explorer Torture Tester Elite Explorer

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      The pistons were hitting the crank?
       
    25. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

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      Yup
      I'd never heard of that before. machinist showed me the bottom side of a couple of piston skirts, and then held the rod against the crank showing how the piston was hitting.
       
    26. 4pointslow

      4pointslow Explorer Torture Tester Elite Explorer

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      Wow!
      I have seen where an engine ingested water into the intake and when over top of the piston caused a hydro locked condition and bent a rod.
      That caused the rod to be too short and the crank hit the bottom of the piston. Some shatter and a couple were at low rpms so they just locked up.
      Your engine was a stroker kit or short block? That means someone put together a crappy kit without checking to make sure it would all fit together?
      Where did it come from? Was it from Summit Racing?

      On a good note it sounds like you have a shop that really knows their stuff and has an eye for detail, since they noticed all that.
      That should be helpful in getting this engine right this time. With less rotating resistance you should have more power too!
       

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