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NA5R55E2-3FT (Not Another 5R55E 2-3 Flare Thread!)

Discussion in 'Transmissions & Transfer Cases' started by Fredness, August 7, 2010.

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    1. Fredness

      Fredness Elite Explorer

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      Well, every experiment needs a "control", so this would be it. :)

      Besides, it turns out that the truck is covered under a 6/100K powertrain warranty that we didn't know existed (vehicle was a lease return - purchased "as is"). After the repair, I had a conversation with someone at work who has a family member that works at a dealership, and he asked how I knew there was no warranty. Turns out that if you call the Ford Warranty Line, you can give them the VIN and they'll tell you what is available. The original owner paid extra for a warranty that was under the name "Certified Customer".

      So, since I was expecting the worst with the "gold dust", I figured I'd take the gamble - risk a $199 diagnostic fee for the chance of getting the trans rebuilt under warranty. So far, it's paid off, they called today to state they found more problems with the trans and it wouldn't be ready until next week.
      Fingers crossed...
       
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    3. Fredness

      Fredness Elite Explorer

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      Short version: "Servo failure" :(
      Dealer is rebuilding - covered under extended warranty we didn't know existed.
       
    4. Fredness

      Fredness Elite Explorer

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      OK, picking it up today, we'll see how it does on the way home!
       
    5. Fredness

      Fredness Elite Explorer

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      Datalogging with the typically Ford Slush-o-matic 5R55E.

      Air Temp 63*
      Trans temp 131 to 167*
      1-2 shift 11.5 to 34.5
      2-3 shift 17 to 51
      3-4 shift 21 to 66
      4-5 shift 43 to 89.5
      EPC 9 to 88

      More later....
      Upcoming data: W/O OTA cooler, CHT vs ECT vs Trans
       
    6. Fredness

      Fredness Elite Explorer

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      Last edited: September 7, 2010
    7. PopRichie77

      PopRichie77 Well-Known Member

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      Fredness, what does your data log figures represent? Are those pressures, if so Line or EPC?
       
    8. Fredness

      Fredness Elite Explorer

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      (As reported by the PCM)

      Air Temp 63*f
      Trans temp 131 to 167*f - from EPC Solenoid Connector Thermistor (Fluid Temp in pan)
      1-2 shift 11.5 to 34.5 MPH - Believe these to be a PCM function, will know when I install the CVB part and retest
      2-3 shift 17 to 51 MPH
      3-4 shift 21 to 66 MPH
      4-5 shift 43 to 89.5 MPH
      EPC 9 to 88 PSI

      How's that? Sorry, should have listed them that way in the first place.
       
      Last edited: September 3, 2010
    9. Fredness

      Fredness Elite Explorer

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      "Masked" OTA (Oil-To-Air) External Cooler: (Cooler is blocked with cardboard, and sealed in a plastic bag with duct tape)

      Air Temp 63*f
      Trans temp 105* to 188*f - from EPC Solenoid Connector Thermistor (Fluid Temp in pan)
      No change in shift points/EPC

      Here's some new info:
      With an InfraRed Thermometer:

      Start:

      Trans Pan: 104*
      Coolant: 184*
      Air: 63*
      Radiator:
      Inlet tank: 140*
      Outlet tank: 86*

      Radiator Trans Cooler:
      Inlet: 86* (Indicative of no flow)
      Outlet: 85* (+/- 1*f of Radiator Outlet tank)

      End:
      Trans Pan: 179*
      Coolant: 188*
      Air: 63*
      Radiator:
      Inlet tank: 163*
      Outlet tank: 118*

      Radiator Cooler:
      Inlet: 138* (Indicative of ATF flow)
      Outlet: 118* (Same as Radiator Outlet tank)

      From that we get:
      -The factory Oil to Air (External) cooler is good for at least 23*f of temperature drop in hilly terrain @ 40MPH.
      -Engine Coolant Temperature is much higher than the radiator inlet tank temperature (Measured at the aluminum core since the plastic tank doesn't transmit heat well).
      -ATF heats up MUCH faster than radiator. Based on this, I would NOT recommend using the radiator to try to "warm" ATF, it just won't work.
      -Radiator cooler at idle is good for at least 20*f ATF temperature drop.
      -5R55E 150*f T-Stat (according to Sonnax) opens at fluid temp from after the Pump/Torque convertor, not "pan temp" which is much lower (How much lower I don't know yet).

      No OTA (Oil-To-Air) External Cooler: (3/8" hose loop)

      Air Temp 56*f
      Trans temp 110* to 181*f - from EPC Solenoid Connector Thermistor (Fluid Temp in pan)
      No change in shift points
      9PSI to 89PSI EPC

      With an InfraRed Thermometer:

      Start:
      Trans Pan: 110*
      Coolant: 130*
      Air: 56*
      Radiator:
      Inlet tank: 103*
      Outlet tank: 95*

      Radiator Trans Cooler:
      Inlet: 98*
      Outlet: 87*

      End:
      Trans Pan: 158*
      Coolant: 185*
      Air: 56*
      Radiator:
      Inlet tank: 170*
      Outlet tank: 124*

      Radiator Cooler:
      Inlet: 169* (Indicative of ATF flow)
      Outlet: 130* (Radiator not absorbing all the heat)

      Here we see the first time that the trans inlet temp is above the pan (we knew this, but this is the first time I logged it). It is also the first time the radiator cooler output temp is ABOVE the radiator output temp (more heat coming from trans than the radiator can handle).

      When the T-Stat opened (194* dropped to 186*), the trans was at 128 degrees.
      I have to keep my eyes on the pan temp... my theory is that there will be a slight drop in the pan temp just as the thermostat opens as the flow through the lines increases, this is going to dump a quart or more of COLD fluid in to the pan. At .5GPM, that's going to go pretty quick. I see a spike in the data log where it goes from 155* to 128* and back within seconds. It may be a glitch, but we'll see if it is repeatable!

      [​IMG]

      This is using paint.net to put the Trans Pan Temp in relation to the Water temp (since the datalogging shows a centered image of each, not based off of one scale), I then used the 61* temp difference from the ECT vs. Radiator Outlet temp to make a line representing the guesstimated plot.
      ECT is in yellow
      ATF is in Red
      Orange is the Estimated Radiator Outlet Temperature based on InfraRed Temps.
      Obviously I'm going to have to get a way to use this as an Analog input to get "real" data - this is interesting!
       
      Last edited: September 9, 2010
    10. Fredness

      Fredness Elite Explorer

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      Cooler upgrade:

      [​IMG]

      Lower mount was broken and cooler is "flopping in the breeze".

      [​IMG]

      Using the packaging from the cooler to build a template to transfer to aluminum diamond plate.

      [​IMG]

      Existing holes were opened up from #14 self taping screws to 5/16" to accommodate the new stainless bolts, washers and Nyloc nuts.

      Once the weather dries up, I'll be removing everything, sanding, priming and painting the bolt holes to ward off rust. There was some minor surface rust on the spot welds behind the grille. Looks like I have some work ahead...
       
      Last edited: September 9, 2010
    11. Fredness

      Fredness Elite Explorer

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      There is some jumping around here, but I'm doing the Superior Mods to the CVB.
      I want to make sure I'm not defeating any existing mods, so anyone that is looking to have "all the Bling" for the valvebody, here goes: (will update as I go along - don't take it as final until the CVB is reinstalled)

      CVB - cleaned and flat sanded and tested.

      FORD TSB Overpressure fix (EPC 6 port valve with dimple, EPC Riser and spring removed)

      Sonnax updates: (as per Instructions) - "Installed" by CVB.
      - Pressure Regulator Sleeve Kit 37947-05K: Delayed engagements due to poor converter fill
      - TCC Modulator Valve Sleeve Kit 37947-07K: No TCC apply, code 1741, erratic TCC, converter overheat
      - TCC Regulator Sleeve Kit 37947-09K: Converter apply issues
      - EPC & Engagement Control Kit 37947-11K: Poor shift quality, delayed forward or no reverse, 2nd gear starts, Flare on 2-3, 3-4 (5R), Repeated code 0741 TCC slippage
      - End Plug Kit 37947-13K: Loss of 4th gear, No 3rd gear, hot, erratic shifting.
      - Oversized Coast Clutch Valve Kit 37947-33K: No 2nd or 5th gear (5R)
      - Boost Valve & Sleeve Kit (Increased Ratio) 37947-03K: High or low line pressure, low cooler flow at idle, overheat conditions.

      Superior Updates: - Red "Covered" (Reason), Black "*" possible.
      - Outer pressure regulator spring (Covered issue in Sonnax kit -03K and -05K)
      - Forward engagement control valve spring (White) (Covered issue in Sonnax kit -11K, different method, better overall engagement control)
      - FORD EPC limit spool and Ford spring - HD Mod (Covered issue in Sonnax kit -11K)
      - Coast clutch retaining plug (Removed part in Sonnax kit -09K)
      * "Thermo blocker" Thermostat Bypass (Covered issue in Sonnax kit -01K, different method, increase flow at idle rather than bypass)
      - Drill separator plate (.062" and .086") (Covered issue in FORD TSB Overpressure fix)
      - EPC pressure riser (electrical) (Covered issue differently in Sonnax kit -11K and -01K, reduced leaks in -13K)
      - Servo return spring (Must remove intermediate servo) - Not sure about this one.
      * Double lip reverse servo seal (Covered issue in Sonnax kit -11K, different method)
      - Direct clutch drum springs (20) (Must disassemble trans) - Not sure about this one either.

      OK, based on these results, IF ALL THE SONNAX MODS ARE DONE, I think I'll be putting the complete Superior 5R55E kit up for sale (local trans shop, "All sales final"). I'll be making a "Thermo blocker" out of a Russian AK-47 Gas Piston (no, really...) if I decide I need to do the "Full-Flow" filtering and external T-Stat. But, if you just want to patch it up, and get it out the door, the price is right for the Superior kit.

      Based on this diagram from Sonnax, it appears that there is always flow to the cooler, just MORE when the Thermostat bypass opens at 150*f of Torque Convertor output fluid temp.

      It's looking more and more like I'm going to leave the thermostat as is, and run the line from the trans to the filter, radiator, then the external cooler.
       
      Last edited: September 22, 2010
    12. Fredness

      Fredness Elite Explorer

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      I know, Internet Rule #32 "Pix or it didn't happen":

      [​IMG]

      This is a well used Gas Piston from a Russian AK-47 (Saiga in 7.62Nato). Due to Title 18 of the US Code (18 USC), Chapter 44, Section 922, Paragraph R (AKA: "Install this part, go to jail"), it is basically useless - or is it?

      [​IMG]

      A local machinist friend needed his lathe moved from the old shop to the new shop, so a couple of us went over and provided lunch/labor in exchange for "making shavings". First cut (large OD) finished...

      [​IMG]

      Smaller OD cut...

      [​IMG]

      Center hole was started with a pilot, and bored 6 steps to a final .316" ID

      [​IMG]

      Here it is on the left (or is it the right? ;) ). Ready for some finish sanding to knock any burrs off - test fit was just fine.
      How tough is it? AK-47 Tough! :D
       
      Last edited: September 9, 2010
    13. Fredness

      Fredness Elite Explorer

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      O.K. new, REALLY clean way to drain the pan... 3/8 drill bit and a cordless drill. :D - pix to follow.

      Since I've been getting in there so frequently, I decided to install the PML pan and if I was going to use the 4x4 pan again, it was going to get a plug installed.

      [derail] Treating the rust while its up on stands anyway...

      [​IMG]

      Been cheating, waiting on the external T-Stat, I didn't want to put the ENTIRE front end back together, so I've been running around in "barely legal" mode... (from first teardown)

      [​IMG]

      Very quickly it strips down... (from first teardown)

      [​IMG]

      Here's the bumper cover, napping in the grass... (from first teardown)

      [​IMG]

      Just pull the lights (2 screws and 4 pull tabs).

      [​IMG]

      Then 2-10mm bolts that were holding the mount in place.

      [​IMG]

      Plastic was pulled and waiting for the missing hardware (from a previous owners "crunch")

      [​IMG]

      Everything was roughed with 100 grit sandpaper/drill mounted "scrubby", and then wiped down with rubbing alcohol. Worked well, I got good coverage, and no fisheye or orange peel.

      [​IMG]

      I chose Rust-Oleum White Primer - it shows up better over the silver paint to ensure coverage. It is also easier to cover with the silver Rust-Oleum Paint afterwards. I'm going to toss a single coat of Duplicolor Perfect Match to blend with the "real" paint.

      There are a lot of areas up front that have overlapping seams that were rusting due to water collection - these would get seam sealer - if there was a budget for that, instead it's Indoor/Outdoor Clear Silicone leftover from a weather proofing job.

      [/derail]
       
      Last edited: September 12, 2010
    14. Fredness

      Fredness Elite Explorer

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      CVB reinstalled and the PML deep pan is on. I installed some adhesive magnets in the pan, and used teflon tape with the copper crushwasher. Got the pan torqued to 110 in/lbs in 2 steps with a new cork gasket using adhesive to bond it to the pan. Even 3 quarts low, the trans shifted briskly and on time. MUCH better than the Dealer Rebuild.
      With the fluid just touching the dipstick, the level is up to the base of the VB, so the filter and the 2" snorkel are completely submerged - no worries with a 4x4 filter; 2 wd may have less of a margin for error. Ordering 6 qts of fluid to make up for the 3 low, 1 qt filter being added, T-Stat, new lines and cooler. That should have me with a qt to spare for topoff or the next filter change (500 miles for the first).

      [​IMG]

      This is the day after, with a 30 mile test drive. Pan is clean, with the only marks on it being from my grubby mitts during the install.
      Drain plug is on the accessible (driver) side as is the extra boss. being at the back of the pan (lowest portion) also helps in draining.

      Thermostat is still not here, so I'm holding the filter/cooler install until then.
       
      Last edited: September 14, 2010
    15. Fredness

      Fredness Elite Explorer

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      Again, more diamond plate, bent on a workbench using a piece of angle iron and clamps.
      Using existing factory holes.

      [​IMG]

      Bosch Filter is mounted for the first 100 miles (or so).
      Routing is temporary until this weekend. T-Stat arrived yesterday.
      Plumbing is from the radiator outlet to the filter inlet and back to the trans.
      Fluid is hot within 5 minutes of idling. Shifted without issue.

      Have a P0741 with flashing O/D light. No impact on shifting but there is an OD light... again. Installed the filter to rule out a particulate contamination issue.
       
      Last edited: September 16, 2010
    16. ranger7ltr

      ranger7ltr Elite Explorer

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      Isn't this a Torque Converter Clutch or TCC solenoid error? Are you using the CVB unit too? Could this be a problem with the wiring harness or was that replaced when the tranny was rebuilt?

      And did you install your machined thermo blocker into the vb?
       
    17. Fredness

      Fredness Elite Explorer

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      Yes, that's what it is, TCC.
      Going to pull the VB today to see if I pinched/misaligned one of the paper gaskets during the install. The CVB worked perfectly the last time it was installed and there was no TCC code.
      Codes clear with the X3, only to return after about 5 min of driving.
      Harness was not replaced, it could be the TCC has gone out - it's electrical, that is always a possiblity.
      Best case, the TCC connector was bumped when i was wrestling with the new pan.
      Worst case, I hosed the separator plate gaskets.

      Either way, there are 100 miles on the clock with the filter and there were no changes, O/D flashing after the trans hits 5th (and the TC should lock).

      I do have the new Ford bonded separator plate - If I don't find anything, I'll just modify it to match the CVB plate and call it a day.

      "Thermo-blocker" was not instaled, I wanted to test everything before, so I'd have some data to compare. As mentioned, I want to get the ATF to 180*f as soon as possible, and keep it there. With before/afters I can make better decissions. More work, but I'm up for it.
       
      Last edited: September 18, 2010
    18. Fredness

      Fredness Elite Explorer

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      BooYah... (Linkage)
      Torque issues from a bunched/malformed gasket.
      Replacing the following:
      F5TZ-7A191-A Gasket Assy Trans Oil Pan
      FT 134 Screen Assy, Motorcraft transmission filter
      1L5Z-7Z490-CA 2001/2002 4.0L-SOHC - Plate - Valve Body Separator

      and doing the following mods to the bonded separator plate:
      One TCC port closed off – EPC overboost fix from Ford.
      OD apply/4th gear engagement boost (Sonnax/CVB).
      TCC exhaust hole enlargement (reduce TCC slip and code P0741).
      Direct Clutch and Servo Release Feed hole enlargement.
      EPC solenoid feed enlargement.
      Pressure Regulator balance orifice enlargement.
      Line pressure to converter feed orifice enlargement.
      (See Sonnax directions in 37947-EZ kit)

      Should be in prime shape tomorrow.
       
      Last edited: September 21, 2010
    19. ranger7ltr

      ranger7ltr Elite Explorer

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      Glad you found the gasket problem... I was thinking the gaskets were a one use only item too...Sorry you had to drop the vb again to find that out... BTW, how many times have you dropped the pan and/or vb now? Does the drain plug make it easier to do?

      I would like to see you use your drill on the stock pan to drain the tranny... That is too funny...I soooo eyed my cordless drill until I added a drain plug to mine...

      And I am interested to see your data on the getting the tranny temp up and maintaining it at 180 f...Thanks for compiling that data so we can mod our trucks to make them run better...
       
    20. Fredness

      Fredness Elite Explorer

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      I've been in there 4x now:
      1 - to "fix" the flare
      2 - to go back to stock after I found the shavings and have the dealer do it
      3 - to go back to the CVB for better performance than the stock VB
      4 - to fix the gasket issue

      I've learned something valuable each time I was in there and felt TOTALLY comfortable this time - no doubt this was the last time for this issue (we'll see).

      The drain plug is Sooooo nice, I was able to dump the fluid straight into the pan, with out any splashing, spilling or overflow.

      Draining the stock pan with a drill is potentially dangerous, but I was so tired of the mess, I thought heck, I have the kit, why not.

      My buddy the amateur photographer (AKA: Guy with the kick-ass macro digital camera) took some great pictures of the damage – it is pretty amazing. As mentioned, the gaskets expand, but at an uneven rate. My theory, which I believe you will see in the photos (posted soon), is this; the gasket bunched under the bolts, messing up the torque specs on the VB. The 30+ mile test drive was perfect, and nothing showed up until the following day – after the trans had completely cooled. Then this is when I think the issues with the torque appeared, through the contraction when cooling.
      When I opened it back up, the VB had some bolts that had some tension on them as I was removing them, others did not. The worst was the separator plate to VB – the 3 Torx bolts were just past finger tight.
      The New Ford bonded separator plate was modified for all the good stuff (above) and feels GREAT. The bonded gasket installed cleanly with no issues and did not have to be shifted a dozen times to get all the bolts started. The test drive was firm and quick with no noises, and, more importantly, no flashing light. If it is still out tomorrow, I’ll consider this case closed…
      I used the Sonnax instructions and drilled all of the holes using American Wire Gauge Drills that were as close as possible to the ones call for. I heavily beveled both of the “orifice” holes, and the only one I didn’t do was the 4th gear engagement, as it was already out to Sonnax specs.

      [​IMG]
      The red arrows mark the pins we made to align the PML pan. Using two m8x1.25-60mm bolts, we cut the heads off, slightly tapered the ends, and cut slots so they could be removed with a screwdriver. This cut off more than 30 minutes of monkeying with the alignment – it went straight in. Nice.
      The circle is the torque pattern held upsidedown by a magnet. Making the torquing very easy as I didn't have to slide out to get numbers/locations. I'm going to do some paint.net work to make the numbers "rightside up".

      Using the old Ford separator plate, I screwed some 2x4 ends pieces to raise it up 2" and used that as a template to store the bolts - that was a big help - not as nice as the spare VB, but nice.

      With the PML pan, it took 10 quarts to get up to the cross hatch area on the dipstick when hot. 10 quarts, sweet.
       
      Last edited: September 20, 2010
    21. Fredness

      Fredness Elite Explorer

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      6 Quarts to get up to the line the first time.
      10 Quarts this time.
      Pan is advertised as "3 Quarts over stock" and I went from a 4x4 pan (larger than 4x2) to this. Looks like it should be "At least 3 Quarts over stock".
      Not that I'm complaining.... :D

      Test drive was awesome.
      Will know how things went today.
       
    22. Fredness

      Fredness Elite Explorer

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      No OTA (Oil-To-Air) External Cooler, PML Pan, CVB, Ext. Filter:

      Air Temp 56*f
      Trans temp 123* to 176*f - from EPC Solenoid Connector Thermistor (Fluid Temp in pan)
      No change in shift points/EPC

      Here's some new info:
      With an InfraRed Thermometer:

      Start:

      Trans Pan: 123*
      Coolant: 140*
      Air: 56*
      Radiator:
      Inlet tank: 78*
      Outlet tank: 77*
      (Indicative of no flow - Engine T-Stat closed)
      Radiator Trans Cooler:
      Inlet: 83* (Indicative of no flow from trans)
      Outlet: 84*
      Filter: 85* (+/- 1*f of Oil-To-Water Cooler Outlet)

      End:
      Trans Pan: 168*
      Coolant: 186*
      Air: 56*
      Radiator:
      Inlet tank: 141*
      Outlet tank: 90*

      Radiator Cooler:
      Inlet: 106* (Indicative of ATF flow)
      Outlet: 99*
      Filter: 99* (Same as Outlet)

      From that we get:
      -The PML pan (and possibly the Ext. Oil Filter, to a lesser degree) is good for >6*f of temperature drop in pan temps in hilly terrain @ 40MPH.
      -The added fluid takes longer to heat up, and longer to cool down. After a peak load, the trans temperature continued to rise for 14 seconds after the coolant dropped, and held for an additional 22 seconds before dropping the same amount. I believe this is due to the >3 quarts of added fluid and the thicker pan. Fluid stays warm in pan LONG after engine was shut down, there was a lapse of 4 hours between runs and the pan start temp was 123*f vs 104*f in the previous run.
      -Again, the cooler is unable to keep up with the transmission heat, as the radiator is at 90* and the trans is at 99*.

      [​IMG]

      ATF External Filter and Radiator Outlet temps were taken at 4 times, start, 777, 1653 and End (since they can't be read manually in motion) - this graph just connects those points with a dotted line - the Radiator line (solid) is based on the rise in ECT, but is assumed at best.

      Remember, this is with NO External Cooler, so it is a direct comparison to the last graph.
       
      Last edited: October 4, 2010
    23. Fredness

      Fredness Elite Explorer

      Joined:
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      2 solid days without issue - file this case as closed.
      Going to update with data logs from the cooler install using 1/2 NPT unions in place of the External T-Stat and also with the External T-Stat.
       
    24. ranger7ltr

      ranger7ltr Elite Explorer

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      Have you had a chance to do any data logging on the tranny temps? I have gotten my stacked plate cooler and external filter hooked up and will be doing the vb replacement soon...

      I do wish the tc had a drain plug so I could drain the fluid out of the tc and replace it too...
       
    25. Fredness

      Fredness Elite Explorer

      Joined:
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      Doing the Cooler this weekend, the 3/8" Tube to 6 AN ends that I had were a compression fitting type that is actually supposed to be used on 3/8" aluminum tube for 25psi or less (carburetor fuel line). So I had to order 3/8" tube nuts, tube sleeves, 6AN couplers and a 37* flaring tool (<$50 for all). This will be near bullet proof and good to 250+psi.
      Shooting tomorrow, so Sunday is going to be "Plumbing-fest".
       
    26. ranger7ltr

      ranger7ltr Elite Explorer

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      Good luck to ya...

      Hope that all your hardware fits and mounts up properly...Look forward to the outcome of course!!!
       

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