New Battery & Starter But Still....

[Bob Explorer 200]

A little over a month ago, I put a new battery (a heavy duty one sold by Advance Auto) and starter in my 2002 Exp and all went well until a couple of days ago. I had just come back from a couple of local shopping runs and parked it in the driveway but, when I tried to start it a few minutes later, all I got was the typical clicking noise. I disconnected the battery terminals, cleaned them up and reconnected them, checked the connections on the new starter and still it wouldn't start. Using a small electronics multimeter, I got voltage readings of 11.29 before I disconnected the battery and 11.48 once the battery was free of the connectors, which I guess means that the battery is low, right?

Since it started right up three times while I was shopping, I'm guessing that it might be something wrong with the alternator. (Unfortunately, it was such a short neighborhood drive that I didn't bother to check the dash meter at the time.) I'm thinking that the charge left in the battery might have been just enough to start it for three starts and then it failed. I bought a charger today and will charge it tomorrow , but that wont solve my problem. I'm not very good with automotive circuits but I think my next purchase is going to be a decent multimeter to make whatever tests necessary to figure this out. But once the recharge is completed and I start it, shouldn't the dash meter indicate whether it is charging or not? And, if it isn't, wouldn't that indicate that the alternator isn't working?

I'd appreciate any help and suggestions from you guys.

 

[07gtman]

if the alt goes it should also give you a check engine light , and any volt meter should get you an idea of whats going on. not only was your battery reading low, but it also looks like something is draining the battery, based on your readings. charge the battery start the car and get a reading, if its reading 14 to 14.5 volts its not the alternator its the battery. just cause you have a new battery does not mean its good battery... hope this helps

 

[imp]

@Bob Explorer 200
Get two invaluable tools: a good VOM (Volt Ohm Milliameter) and a Battery Hydrometer. The meter will not be cheap. The Hydrometer ought to be under 10 bucks or so.

Batteries have 6 separate cells in them, connected together internally. One bad cell is often not detectable with a meter, but each cell may be evaluated individually using the Hydrometer.

Before doing anything else, check each battery cell for adequate water. Low on water = low on performance. If all 6 cells have visible water, check the state of charge of each using the Hydrometer, a glass tube having a float within it and a squeeze bulb used to draw liquid from the battery cell up maybe into the Hydrometer. The float is marked, calibrated, both with numbers and colors, red up near the top of the float, yellow in the center, and green at the bottom. The depth at which the float remains suspended completely, not touching the bottom of the outer tube, indicates the state of charge. Most importantly, ignoring each actual "reading", if one or two cells shows a reading substantially lower than the rest, throw the battery away: ALL cells in a good battery will read the same regardless of how much the battery is charged or discharged.

If all 6 cells show in the Red, or maybe midway in Yellow, and the battery is too weak to start the engine, charge it, or get it charged. After charging, allow time to settle down 15 or 30 minutes, and use the meter to check the battery voltage. It should be over 12 volts. Leave the meter connected to the battery, which is installed and ready to go to work. If possible, have a helper start the engine, while you watch the meter. During cranking, the voltage will drop, perhaps to 8 volts or so. If the engine starts very quickly, you will not see that reading very long, as upon starting the alternator will immediately raise the voltage up to a level higher than that of the resting battery. Running, the meter should read several volts HIGHER than battery voltage, 13+ volts, as high as 15, if the battery was considerably discharged. If the voltage is identical to the "rest" value of the battery, the alternator is not working.

A Hydrometer is in reality an excellent all-around battery diagnosing tool, inexpensive and reliable. A few details are important, though. The "float" shows the Specific Gravity of the battery fluid. When high, in the Green, the liquid is very Acid. As a battery discharges, the fluid becomes more "watery", less Acid. Important: Using the Hydrometer right after a battery has been charged will give erroneous readings, as the liquid is then full of bubbles of gas.

All connections in the starter-battery circuit must be clean, tight, and corrosion-free, especially right at the battery posts, where acid fumes "eat" the metal surfaces, destroying their ability to carry high starter currents. All of this sounds complicated, I know, but read over the highlights. I hope it helps you. imp

 

[TechGuru]

Autozone has a automatic charging system tester they can connect to your vehicle.

@imp He said he got a "heavy duty" battery from Autozone, I'm not sure what that means but if it's the Platinum AGM battery I it is sealed except for vents.

BTW, the only two batteries I recommend are the Ford Motorcraft available at OReilly's but actually cheaper at Ford Dealers or the grey/silver AGM battery from AutoZone.

http://www.autozone.com/batteries-s...ery/duralast-platinum-battery/319465_929779_0

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/MOT2/BXT65850/03321.oap

 

[Bob Explorer 200]

Thanks for the valuable information, friends. I checked the battery cells today for fluid level and all were full. The battery is Advance Auto"s Autocraft Gold Group Size 65 (CCA 850). Also picked up a hydrometer and will be checking the SG of fluid and charging it tomorrow morning and willl be picking up a multimeter on Monday at Home Depot. I'll post as soon as I get some results and am sure I'll have more questions too. Once again, thanks very much for the help here

 

[IPcamper]

If the battery and alternator are good, then the battery cables may be corroded and causing too much resistance. This can keep the battery from charging. I had this problem in a car once, the alternator was putting out 13.6 to 14 volts but only 12.5 was making to the battery, not enough to recharge.

 

[Number4]

Charge

 

[IPcamper]

That is the voltage the battery will produce on discharge, but to drive the chemical reaction in reverse for charging, you need a higher voltage going into the battery. This why alternator voltages will go over 14.5 volts.

from http://www.powerstream.com/SLA.htm

Cyclic versus Standby charging.

Some lead acid batteries are used in a standby condition in which they are rarely cycled, but kept constantly on charge. These batteries can be very long lived if they are charged at a float voltage of 2.25 to 2.3 volts/cell (at 25 degrees C) (13.5V to 13.8V for a 12V battery). This low voltage is to prevent the battery from losing water during long float charging. Those batteries that are used in deep discharge cycling mode can be charged up to 2.45 volts/cell (14.7V for a 12V battery) to get the highest charge rate, as long as the voltage is dropped to the float voltage when the charge is complete.

Voltage table for cyclic use charging. The higher voltages (above the gassing voltage) should only be used on flooded batteries that can have the water replaced:
Battery Temperature----Charge Voltage per cell----Charge Voltage for a 12 Volt battery----Gassing Voltage per cell----Gassing Voltage for a 12V battery
-20 °C * ---------------------2.67 to 2.76 --------------------------16.02 to 16.56------------------------------ 2.97 ---------------------------------17.82
-10 °C * ---------------------2.61 to 2.70---------------------------15.66 to 16.2 ------------------------------ 2.65----------------------------------15.9
0 ° C * ----------------------2.55 to 2.65 ---------------------------15.3 to 15.9 ----------------------------- 2.54 ---------------------------------15.24
10 °C -----------------------2.49 to 2.59 ---------------------------14.94 to 15.54 -------------------------- 2.47 ---------------------------------14.82
20 °C -----------------------2.43 to 2.53 ---------------------------14.58 to 15.18 -------------------------- 2.415 --------------------------------14.49
25 °C -----------------------2.40 to 2.50 ---------------------------14.40 to 15.00 --------------------------- 2.39 ---------------------------------14.34
30 °C -----------------------2.37 to 2.47 ---------------------------14.22 to 14.82 -------------------------- 2.365 ---------------------------------14.19
40 °C ---------------------- 2.31 to 2.41 ----------------------------13.86 to 14.46 -------------------------- 2.33 ----------------------------------13.98
50 °C -----------------------2.25 to 2.35 ----------------------------13.5 to 14.10 ---------------------------- 2.30 -----------------------------------13.8

* Note that a fully discharged battery freezes solid at about 0°C, a fully
charged battery freezes about -72°C. This is why a discharged battery won't take a charge in sub-freezing weather.

 

[imp]

Thanks for the valuable information, friends. I checked the battery cells today for fluid level and all were full. The battery is Advance Auto"s Autocraft Gold Group Size 65 (CCA 850). Also picked up a hydrometer and will be checking the SG of fluid and charging it tomorrow morning and willl be picking up a multimeter on Monday at Home Depot. I'll post as soon as I get some results and am sure I'll have more questions too. Once again, thanks very much for the help here

@Bob Explorer 200
I avoided getting into Specific Gravity and such because not every car guy has the background to understand such. Yes, batteries are being sold which are not "checkable" with no caps. Can't add water, either. IMO, this is bullshit. Any lead-acid battery ought to have access, as water is consumed during everyday use, and checking the electrolyte using a hydrometer is tantamount to knowing the condition of the battery. Forgive my French? imp

 

[Number4]

Remove the cables from the battery and bend them. Good cables will bend with ease, internally corroded cables with not want to bend and will make noise when doing so.

Look for stiff spots in the cables. Corrosion isn't always visible at the ends.

Also perform a voltage drop test, if that hasn't already been mentioned.

 

[TechGuru]

@Bob Explorer 200
I avoided getting into Specific Gravity and such because not every car guy has the background to understand such. Yes, batteries are being sold which are not "checkable" with no caps. Can't add water, either. IMO, this is bullshit. Any lead-acid battery ought to have access, as water is consumed during everyday use, and checking the electrolyte using a hydrometer is tantamount to knowing the condition of the battery. Forgive my French? imp

I believe it's mainly the AGM batteries that are sealed (due to the nature of AGM) and maybe some economy batteries that want to save money by not having removable caps.

 

[imp]

Remove the cables from the battery and bend them. Good cables will bend with ease, internally corroded cables with not want to bend and will make noise when doing so.

Look for stiff spots in the cables. Corrosion isn't always visible at the ends.

Also perform a voltage drop test, if that hasn't already been mentioned.

@Number4
Excellent suggestion. Merely checking battery voltage while cranking, at the battery terminals, shows lower than unloaded values due to two reasons: one is the actual drop in battery output voltage when heavily loaded, but voltage can be "lost" elsewhere as a result of poor connections, damaged cable wires, or both. Those can be singled out by measuring voltage at the starter while cranking, measuring between the cable connection and a good ground point, like the shiny, clean converter housing. imp

 

[Bob Explorer 200]

Well, after charging the battery for 14+ hours, it never did charge properly. I didn't want to leave it charging unattended overnight in the garage, so I did it in two 7-hour charge sessions. The charger indicator lights never even shifted to the second stage (which would have indicated an 80%+ charge) even though the meter showed about 12.1 volts on the unconnected battery when I finally took it off the charger. By that time I had a hydrometer and this showed all the cells had very low SG; pretty much at the bottom of the test tube. So, I brought battery back to Advance and got new replacement and installed when I got home today. I was working alone, so I couldn't do the voltage drop test that imp suggested above.

But here are the readings I got on my new meter (a Fluke model 115 TRUE rms Multimeter):
UNCONNECTED: 12.62
CONNECTED BUT NOT RUNNING: 12.49
CONNECTED AND RUNNING: First reading: 12.28
Second reading: 12,25
There are 2 readings on last because I decided to take one and then turn off the motor and restart for another a few minutes later. I also checked the stiffness of the battery cables and they're pretty stiff. However it's pretty cold up here in New England today and that might have made them less flexible too.

Some questions:
1. If there is some sort of short or misconnection in the circuit, could that have caused this new battery to discharge to the point where it was unrechargeable?
2. Shouldn't the voltage reading when connected and running be somewhat higher than when connected but not running? If so, what would this indicate?
3. Does the slight drop in voltage from the 1st connected and running reading to the 2nd reading indicate anything or could that just be due to normal fluctuation?
4. I'll be checking the voltage numbers hereafter with meter and using hydrometer too, but what else should I watch?
5. I'm not very tech savvy and can't figure out how the hell to insert quotes from earlier posters in these my posts.

By the way, it should go without saying, but I really appreciate all of your generous and helpful suggestions, comments and other input here. Since I've been busy freezing my keister out in the garage earlier, I haven't yet had time to digest all the info in the last several posts but definitely will overnight. Thanks again.

 

[imp]

But here are the readings I got on my new meter (a Fluke model 115 TRUE rms Multimeter):
UNCONNECTED: 12.62
CONNECTED BUT NOT RUNNING: 12.49
CONNECTED AND RUNNING: First reading: 12.28
Second reading: 12,25
There are 2 readings on last because I decided to take one and then turn off the motor and restart for another a few minutes later. I also checked the stiffness of the battery cables and they're pretty stiff. However it's pretty cold up here in New England today and that might have made them less flexible too.

Some questions:
1. If there is some sort of short or misconnection in the circuit, could that have caused this new battery to discharge to the point where it was unrechargeable? Depends on how long the battery sat inactive with something draining away it's charge. If it discharged completely in, say, an hour or two, that would mean a pretty serious short circuit, capable of producing lots of heat. If it sat being discharged slowly, over a number of days time, the cause would not be easily found. In such a case, the actual amount of current discharging the batt. would be desirable to know. "Unrechargeable"? Not likely with a fairly new batt in good condition. Batteries left standing very long, like 6 months, become "sulfated" making them difficult or impossible to bring back.
2. Shouldn't the voltage reading when connected and running be somewhat higher than when connected but not running? If so, what would this indicate? Absolutely! Your readings indicate a non-working alternator or possibly a burned-out fusible link which is in place in the harness to protect the alternator against short-circuit burnout. Or, possible connection problem at the alternator. Have the parts store test it.
3. Does the slight drop in voltage from the 1st connected and running reading to the 2nd reading indicate anything or could that just be due to normal fluctuation? Likely normal, BUT, immediately after starting the engine, voltage measured at the battery should be well over 13 volts, possibly as high as 15, depending on battery condition before cranking the engine.
4. I'll be checking the voltage numbers hereafter with meter and using hydrometer too, but what else should I watch? You have the 2 tools most needed and usable. If the battery discharges while standing like overnight, enough to see a measurable drop in it's voltage, run it until charged, and leave it stand again with one cable disconnected. If no loss of voltage, something in the vehicle is draining the battery. Try this: Start engine, leave it idling, and disconnect one battery cable. If the engine dies, the alternator is not working. Once started, a battery does nothing.
5. I'm not very tech savvy and can't figure out how the hell to insert quotes from earlier posters in these my posts. Easiest explain, to copy any text, highlight it by passing your cursor over it, then depress "ctrl, holding it down, then "c". That will "copy" and retain the text. Then place the cursor where you want to copy and depress "ctrl" and "v", which will "paste" the text there. imp

By the way, it should go without saying, but I really appreciate all of your generous and helpful suggestions, comments and other input here. Since I've been busy freezing my keister out in the garage earlier, I haven't yet had time to digest all the info in the last several posts but definitely will overnight. Thanks again.

 

[TechGuru]

CONNECTED BUT NOT RUNNING: 12.49
CONNECTED AND RUNNING: First reading: 12.28
Second reading: 12,25

There's your answer, time to order a alternator.

I'll assume you have a 4.0L V6...

I only recommend 100% new alternators.

BOSCH AL7543N $131.79 http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=501298

REMY 92520 $114.79 http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=971084

Just took some readings:

 

[Bob Explorer 200]

Thanks, imp and TechGuru. Would have posted sooner but a friend had sort of an emergency yesterday, so I couldn't get back on the truck until later this afternoon.

The Rock Auto web page link that TG posted included another link to this page:
Before Buying a New Alternator, Read These Electrical Troubleshooting Tips

Well, this article mentions the serpentine belt and about a 6 weeks ago I had a mechanic install a new serpentine belt in this truck and since then it's been squealing almost continuously while the engine is running. After returning it to his shop several times, he then installed a new idler pulley with still no improvement. But, after checking it out, he ruled out any notion that the alternator might not be charging. At that point, he suggested I just live with it and see if it eventually would go away. It hasn't so far.

Anyway, today I started off by checking the voltage again while connected but NOT running (after I'd driven 20 or 30 miles yesterday and earlier today) and got 12.13 volts compared with the 12.49 I got right after installing this new battery. I then started it again (the squealing started immediately) and then disconnected the positive cable as imp suggested in his last post. The engine kept right on running BUT the squeal immediately stopped. And as soon as I reconnected the cable, the squeal started right up once again. Is it possible that the noise is being caused by faulty bearing on the alternator and this is also responsible for the failure to charge the battery? And, once again, this all started when the mechanic installed a new belt. Any thoughts on that?

I plan to bring it to the parts store tomorrow to have the alternator checked.

 

[imp]

Thanks, imp and TechGuru. Would have posted sooner but a friend had sort of an emergency yesterday, so I couldn't get back on the truck until later this afternoon.

The Rock Auto web page link that TG posted included another link to this page:
Before Buying a New Alternator, Read These Electrical Troubleshooting Tips

Well, this article mentions the serpentine belt and about a 6 weeks ago I had a mechanic install a new serpentine belt in this truck and since then it's been squealing almost continuously while the engine is running. After returning it to his shop several times, he then installed a new idler pulley with still no improvement. But, after checking it out, he ruled out any notion that the alternator might not be charging. At that point, he suggested I just live with it and see if it eventually would go away. It hasn't so far.

Anyway, today I started off by checking the voltage again while connected but NOT running (after I'd driven 20 or 30 miles yesterday and earlier today) and got 12.13 volts compared with the 12.49 I got right after installing this new battery. I then started it again (the squealing started immediately) and then disconnected the positive cable as imp suggested in his last post. The engine kept right on running BUT the squeal immediately stopped. And as soon as I reconnected the cable, the squeal started right up once again. Is it possible that the noise is being caused by faulty bearing on the alternator and this is also responsible for the failure to charge the battery? And, once again, this all started when the mechanic installed a new belt. Any thoughts on that?

I plan to bring it to the parts store tomorrow to have the alternator checked.

@Bob Explorer 200
This is suggesting a mechanical problem with the serpentine belt drive system. The alternator, trying to replace "juice" withdrawn starting the engine, and trying to supply power to run the vehicle, places a heavy load on the drive belt. Chec k for the possibility that your belt is too long, therefore not tensioned sufficiently. Squealing belt suggests either looseness (too long belt), or possibly weak/broken tensioner spring. Check also for possibility of leaking fluid, coolant, oil, impinging on belt, causing it to slip. The belt should never squeal, is the point. Squeal indicates something is wrong. Try relieving belt tension (i.e., loosen belt, remove from alternator pulley, then turn alternator using your fingers. It should turn freely and easily. If it is difficult to turn, alternator is "mechanically challenged". imp

 

[TechGuru]

Best belt, CONTINENTAL 4060855 $24.79 http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=1332875

BTW, I noticed the belt for the 2 Door Sport models is 10mm longer than the 4 door models. Perhaps the mechanic installed the wrong belt? Look for some numbers on the belt. Correct should have 855 in the numbers somewhere, incorrect is 865 in it somewhere. (This is for 4.0L V6)

and if you need a new belt tensioner: MOTORCRAFT BT120 $29.79 http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=3603762

BTW, "Live with it" = dumb mechanic.

If it's not the belt the harmonic balancer could be slipping. But I'd make sure the right belt is on it first.