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OK, now I have stroke, but how do I balance it? Harmonic balancer issues

Discussion in 'Need for Speed!' started by Turdle, August 13, 2007.


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    1. Turdle

      Turdle Will cook for gas Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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      This is going to be a big stumbling block for a few people

      The stock balance for a 5.0 explorer engine is 50z in

      A stroker engine will require a 28 oz in balance--

      so a flexplate and harmonic balancer switch is needed.
      The flexplates are out there, but the explorer Harmonic balancer-pulley-dis trigger is all one unique unit for explorers--
      When I purchased my stroker kit from Coast High-they found me one I assure you. However, even with my receipt ( no part number) they have no idea what I am referring to--

      My thoughts--can material be removed from the stock balancer ( by machine shop of course) to work with the new balance weight?
      Also-for thought--the 96-98 mustang pulley looks awful close---

      I might add, my balancer did come with SFI certification--this is another consideration--


      http://www.sfifoundation.com/about.html
       
      Last edited by a moderator: August 13, 2007
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    3. CougarX

      CougarX Well-Known Member

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      I don't think they removed any weight from my stock balancer at all. From what I remember, they had to remove a little extra from my crankshaft to get things to balance out. I'll look through old pics and receipts and whatnot to see if i can find anything, but I know for a fact that I am using the stock dampener and I'm 99% sure that nothing has been removed from it. I'll check for sure later tonight.
       
    4. CougarX

      CougarX Well-Known Member

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      Oh, and for everyone else's info, I used a 28oz balance flexplate from a mustang in place of my stock flexplate. This is what the guy at the shop where I had my stuff balanced recommended and it worked. I don't have any engine vibration so I know everything is balanced correctly.
       
    5. Turdle

      Turdle Will cook for gas Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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      Bulletin!!!

      This just in!
      I talked with my engine builder
      http://jacksengine.com/

      To make it short and sweet,He said if you guys want to send your stuff to him-he will make it work--
      he needs the rotating assembly-balancer and flex plate shipped to him--
      I recommend a new balancer, as the rubber sleeve will allow the 2 pieces to rotate away from each other over time. This causes a mismatch in timing between the crank timing sprocket and crank DIS trigger wheel--FYI mine was over 5 degreses off after 102k miles

      True--
      Hughes makes an SFI approved flexplate which will work--
       
      Last edited: August 13, 2007
    6. Turdle

      Turdle Will cook for gas Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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      OH By the way--

      I am in the opinion there is no type of racing harder on an engine than dirt circle track. These guys are crazy!

      We have a 1/4 mile track which pays--

      http://www.humboldtspeedway.com/

      If you look it over well, you'll see Jack, Kieth, and Zack (his sons) Simmons as very large winners-they don't show unless the purse is large, and usually they take it.
      Their trophies would not fit in my garage--
      The other name --foulk- uses Jacks engines--
       
      Last edited: August 13, 2007
    7. Dan Whitaker

      Dan Whitaker One fast putty tat Elite Explorer

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      Jon, you might want to sticky this :)
       
    8. Spas

      Spas It's all Jack's fault Elite Explorer

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      *Dives into thread*

      Ahh, more useful things to know before I start buying parts that'll end up not fitting!

      So to simplify for us blondes, a stroker engine will require a 28oz harmonic balancer pulley and a Mustang 28oz flexplate to work, otherwise the crankshaft will need to have material removed in order to keep vibration out of the engine? What about this DIS switch thing?

      (Btw, from speaking with Coast High on the phone a few times I've concluded that while they do indeed make excellent parts and engines, their part system sucks BALLS. They don't even stamp numbers onto the engines for tracking or anything apparently!!)
       
    9. Dan Whitaker

      Dan Whitaker One fast putty tat Elite Explorer

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      That's scary as hell :eek: :eek:

      Here is something else that does not make sense.

      Scat makes a forged 302 crank but they do not make a forged stroker crank. It's cast. WTF:confused: :confused:

      Hey Lindsay, are you going to participate in the Captain Morgan Pose off?
       
    10. CougarX

      CougarX Well-Known Member

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      Basically, yes, that sums it up. The third option is to send your Explorer balancer and flex plate to Jacks engines and they can convert it to a 28 oz. balance evidentially if I'm reading jt's post correctly.
       
    11. Spas

      Spas It's all Jack's fault Elite Explorer

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      Already submitted it, dear :D I'm a little bummed that it hasn't shown up in their submissions gallery yet though :/

      Jt, any idea how much Jack's charges to do this mutation to Explorer balancers?
       
    12. Dan Whitaker

      Dan Whitaker One fast putty tat Elite Explorer

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      Is it the one of you on top of Morgan? :p: Oh make that the side of Morgan :D :D
       
    13. Spas

      Spas It's all Jack's fault Elite Explorer

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      I used the better shot that Jay (SuRrEalNj) took ;)

      [​IMG]
       
    14. Turdle

      Turdle Will cook for gas Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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      Scat makes a forged crank--also a billet crank heh heh--

      http://www.scatcrankshafts.com/

      part number

      4-302-3400-54-2123-2

      3.400" Stroke, 5.400" Rod Length, 2.123" Pin.
       
      Last edited: August 13, 2007

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    15. Turdle

      Turdle Will cook for gas Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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      You need to send him the whole rotating assembly--crank-rods-flexplate-balancer

      I have no idea what he would charge--but then it needs reassembled--
      If you know a competent person--it could be done this way
      Or, you could ship the whole engine for a balance blueprint job--

      Sorry to bring the bad news--but it is the only way. You don't want to shake that new engine apart--
      It won't cost a bunch though--it doesn't need lots of parts.
       
    16. CDW6212R

      CDW6212R Hauls the mail. Elite Explorer

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      This thread is simply about balancing the rotating assembly of an engine. Stock engines are not balanced like local shops do theirs, nor like the big name builders. OEM measures individual part weights, and from prior calculations selects parts that will balance "close" together. Thus the engines are not balanced the same. Parts with known weights are matched with others that are in the factory tolerances of acceptable weights which will work together.

      This is exactly why there is often very good power to be had from a decent balancing of an existing engine. Every part is required to balance the rotating assembly. The machinist must have the balancer, flexplate, crank, rods/bolts, pistons, and rings.

      They can balance the engine with many balancers or flexplates. For a stroker engine much crank drilling/welding may be needed, so ask whether they would like a 28oz.or 50oz. flexplate.

      That's a good call Jon, OEM balancers are not known for timing accuracy, either when new, or after many years. An aftermarket balancer would be wise if available, for an expensive engine. Keep the imbalances down, that is likely why the 28oz. flexplate was requested instead of the 50oz. Stroker cranks have less extra metal in them for balancing, limiting balance weight choices.

      If the engine was going to be a 302(3.0" stroke), the 50oz. is the better choice. You have more choices with custom engines, and they cost more. With stockish rebuilds avoid the odd parts, you can use them, but the costs go way up. For this balancing the price would be much more to make the non stock flexplate work, or an aftermarket balancer etc. Regards,
       
      Last edited: February 28, 2009
    17. Turdle

      Turdle Will cook for gas Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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      Good info--
      however-they don't need the pistons and rings-thise SHOULD weigh the same if they are from a reputable source-our builder will need this weight-in grams.
      If it is easier you could send them just to be sure--
      They will use a balance "bobweight" to take their place--once the weight is established--
       
    18. CDW6212R

      CDW6212R Hauls the mail. Elite Explorer

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      Jon, they need the weights of all of the parts. Usually the machinist is going to be balancing the rods and pistons, so they have them already.

      Other than building a stroker I would much prefer to have a machinist locally do my stuff, then assemble it myself. For my stroker I don't think I have good enough machinists here to trust. I believe that I'll let DSS assemble mine when I get that far.
       
    19. Spas

      Spas It's all Jack's fault Elite Explorer

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      .....Aaaaand for those of us who have a professionally built crate engine, we should probably just call the manufacturer and ask them what they've got that'll work so we don't have to spend a fortune shipping our engine and having it torn apart, huh? ;)
       
    20. Turdle

      Turdle Will cook for gas Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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      That is the whole point of this thread Lindsy--there isn't one--:(

      Your new explorer balancer will NEED to be spun up with your rotating assembly attached. Material will be removed from the balancer and crankshaft
      Not a place for guess work--

      he needed to do this with mine--BTW
       
    21. Dan Whitaker

      Dan Whitaker One fast putty tat Elite Explorer

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      Correct they make a forged stroker crank but they don't offer a forged crank rotating assembly. Just a cast crank. I know, I've looked at their online catalog.
       
    22. CougarX

      CougarX Well-Known Member

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      So I double checked last night and there is definitely no material removed from my harmonic balancer. I can't find any pics of the crank during the build but if i remember correctly there were quite a few holes drilled in the very front counterweight of the crank to get the weight down. So it is possible with a stock 50az harmonic balancer and a 28oz mustang flywheel/flexplate as long as you don't mind removing more then normal from your crank, which shouldn't' have any adverse affects.
       
    23. Turdle

      Turdle Will cook for gas Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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      Dan-
      I have scat h-beam rods--and billet crank.

      rotating assembly is rods and crank. Isn't it?
       
    24. Dan Whitaker

      Dan Whitaker One fast putty tat Elite Explorer

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      What Scat is calling a rotating assy is crank, rods, pistons & rings. Everything can be bought seperate.

      I'm really starting to think it's not worth the money and hassle of builing a stroker engine.

      $1900 for machine work
      $1500-$1700 for crank, rods, pistons, rings
      $1200-$1500 for heads
      $500-$700 for cam lifters timing chain
      $650 for headers

      On the high end that totals $6450 and that does not include fuel pump injectors and other misc parts. Hell this could run $10,000 by the time it's said & done:eek:

      The Mounty just is not worth sinking that kind of money into.
       
    25. CougarX

      CougarX Well-Known Member

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      You don't have to go all the way like that either though. JT has a super nice engine, don't get me wrong, but its almost overbuilt just for a daily driver naturally aspirated motor (sorry JT). My 347 cost maybe 3000 all together and that is including the injectors, headers I just bought, as well as new water pump and starter, FPR, etc. I did all the work except for the machining. Granted, I used my stock heads for now, but they work just fine.

      You can always spend more money, but once you get to a certain power level then just a few more horsepower starts costing a lot more dollars. If you don't plan on running nitrous or more than 6-7psi of boost then you don't need the forged/billet crank, h-beam rods, etc. You can get by much cheaper as long as you plan on staying N/A. A mild 347 has enough power and torque compared to a stock 302 that most people won't need a power adder on top of it. I know its always safer to overbuild, and can save money if you ever want to add more power, but if it's the difference between doing it or not doing it there is always a middle ground.

      Just my $0.02
       
    26. Dan Whitaker

      Dan Whitaker One fast putty tat Elite Explorer

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      With 195,000 miles even at $5000 I don't know if I can justify it because I'm going to need a tranny rebbuild soon, bearings in both front & rear diffs.

      The A/C called it quits a year ago, the blend door is broke, the driverside rear door won't open the driverside front door lock actuator is acting up and so on.
       

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