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OK, now I have stroke, but how do I balance it? Harmonic balancer issues

Discussion in 'Need for Speed!' started by Turdle, August 13, 2007.


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    1. Turdle

      Turdle Will cook for gas Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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      My math is like this-thinking from a different viewpoint,
      the stock 19's will support a stock 225 max HP
      Now, if you want 375+hp , in my head I figure 30's to 36's
       
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    3. rocket 5979

      rocket 5979 Resident Gearhead

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      Going by hp is usually the better "rule of thumb" way to estimate for injectors though it doesn't encompass everything. However, that is just for N/A applications. FI will not use the same rule of thumb as N/A does.
       
    4. CDW6212R

      CDW6212R Hauls the mail. Elite Explorer

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      Yes and Yes to you Robert and Jon, but Spas did hint at a Holley intake and spacer. Without mention of actual rpm limits or compression or balancing, etc, it's hard to approximate hp or efficiency. If nothing else is special going into the 347, the 24's would be a good start. If more changes were there, or future plans are known, then a different injector does make sense. I try to assume lesser realistic goals when people ask about parts.

      Most people pay big money to local places to throw parts together, or they feel uncomfortable about the special things we might suggest, and choose milder factors. A lot of the members who have brainstormed about engine combinations do have the money to build nice pieces, but getting them to trust and try the path that we suggest is hard for them.

      When this thread started I figured what kind of question is this, you have to balance the assembly with the actual balancer. You can balance any assembly with any balancer. That isn't true now that there are so many stroker cranks. I didn't know it until I spoke with a builder who does a lot of strokers. The stroker cranks coming from the aftermarket do not have the extra steel in them like Ford cranks, for balancing. These cranks are designed to be as light as possible, there isn't nuch room to balance with any balancer except the one it's made for. All of the 302 stroker cranks are made for Mustang 28oz balancers.

      The aftermarket revolves around the Mustang enthusiasts. It helps us with an Explorer, but we have to have special knowledge to take advantage of some things.
       
    5. rocket 5979

      rocket 5979 Resident Gearhead

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      Usually people who have done a 347 in their X will bother to do the proper supporting mods (heads/cam, so on) so it is more safe to assume something "special" that will allow fairly high VE volumetric efficiency will be present. There is just too much left out of the equation when looking at displacement itself, VE plays a very very large role in fueling requirements also. VE is even more critical when N/A.
       
    6. reserved50

      reserved50 Well-Known Member

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      TwEEcer works great :D
       
    7. Spas

      Spas It's all Jack's fault Elite Explorer

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      All right, I just got off the phone with CHP and the nice tech tells me to find a reputable machinist who knows his isht, then to go ahead and have him balance my (brand new) stock Exploder pulley to weight match the 28oz Mustang pulley that's on there now. Hopefully they'll lean more on shaving as opposed to drilling. Chp is ridiculously **** when it comes to torquing and re-torquing every bolt in their blocks, so I'm fine with leaving their handiwork alone and not taking the bottom end apart. Someday when the motor is in and working, I'll let you guys know if it vibrates noticeably :salute:
       
    8. reserved50

      reserved50 Well-Known Member

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      all right, it wont vibrate... but the shop that balanced mine was 100% set on not over drilling mine due to the fact they have seen a few stock and mild performance balancers explode and shoot thru walls :D. We had actually bought a few balancers to see if it was possible without too much work to adapt the trigger wheel ( it could be done but they are more into machining engines than one off balancers), they said for time and cost just drill the crank and that way if anything happens its still a direct bolt on.
      A few crankshaft manufacturers have said on their sites etc not to overdrill a crank or the crank might snap, but the machine shop had said they have done it many times with no problems even on daily drivers, so I said to hell with messing with the balancer, and hope that racers that rev well past 6K etc only have had this problem.
       
    9. CDW6212R

      CDW6212R Hauls the mail. Elite Explorer

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      FYI, I have found a place far away who has been helpful and enthusiastic about finding a solution to the balancer issue. They have many balancers on hand, and stock Explorer and Mustang balancers. The they have the parts on hand to know what is needed.

      I asked for help in building a 28oz. balancer with a bolt on pulley and the Explorer ignition trigger ring. He agreed that finding a proper aftermarket balancer which could have a pulley bolted on would be best. The hard part after a short search will be to find a balancer which has the right kind of shape on the back side to be able to machine a ledge to press the trigger ring onto. I received a call suggesting promising FMS parts which were close. The balancer found first would work to bolt pulleys onto, but the back side seemed a little large in size, it would need an excess of metal removed for the ring.

      I have hopes that at least this will turn up a balancer to create the main parts from. Finding a pulley which is the desired diameter and grooved as needed, that might be harder. I'm after an 8-rib pulley, so my choices will be fewer. I will look into what pulleys come on stock 8-rib applications, like the Super Duty trucks. Hoping for the first piece of a big puzzle, night.
       
    10. kanuck15

      kanuck15 Active Member

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      Did anything ever come of this? I am knocking on the door of a stroker kit and not really sure what to do about the balancer
       
    11. CDW6212R

      CDW6212R Hauls the mail. Elite Explorer

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      I got mine done, and then found a mistake they made, then I had a local shop fix it, and make another one.

      Evidently some company now sells a 28oz Explorer balancer, search and find ahodges 347 supercharged truck. He has one of those on his 347 now.

      The options are better now, maybe even an SFI piece can be made if it was really needed.:salute:
       
    12. kanuck15

      kanuck15 Active Member

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      I found that 28oz explorer piece. Its a little spendy but if thats what it takes then thats what it takes
       
    13. CDW6212R

      CDW6212R Hauls the mail. Elite Explorer

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      How much was it again? I spent over $350 for the first one that I had made, including having it fixed from the trigger wheel spinning. The next one from the local shop that fixed the first one, was less than $250.

      Did they have other choices, say a version to fit the pre 1994 Mustangs, or one for those 94/95 302's? I know other people are building engines using those more common platforms, both for a stroker or the normal 302/351 stuff.

      I/we should post the link to the sources here and more often.. I'll save it to my clipboard here too.
       
    14. kanuck15

      kanuck15 Active Member

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      Elite Explorer members see practically no ads, can add their own profile photo, upload photo attachments directly to your posts and Media Gallery, create more private Conversations, and more. Join Today. Your support is greatly appreciated.
    15. CDW6212R

      CDW6212R Hauls the mail. Elite Explorer

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      Thanks for the link, which I've saved. They don't list other options for the 302's from what I see there.


      I am going to have to build a 302/306 later for a blower on my truck, and the cost for a 347 is not much more. I will be after aftermarket crank/rods/pistons, and that will make the cost virtually the same. Using stock crank and rods, you can save maybe $300 versus a 347.

      A decent 347 stroker kit is around $750, which includes crank/rods/pistons/rings, all balanced, and possibly bearings. I haven't compared any kits. For stock 302 parts, the machine work alone and new quality pistons should cost you at least $400 I'd bet.

      Note that a 347 is 15% bigger than a 302, so using the same induction parts would result in the power and rpm band being 15% lower. That's all it does given stock heads/intake/cam etc. To gain much more power the H/I/C has to get bigger to flow more air.

      I'm going to stay with a 302 for the 15% better likely gas mileage, plus with boost to stay away from the breakage limit of the stock block.
       
    16. kanuck15

      kanuck15 Active Member

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      I did some cost analysis for my 306, For what the machine work would cost as well as getting a block to start with I can just get a 306 block from summit for 750 and start there. I plan on running stock cam with 1.7 rockers along with aluminum GT40 heads (just weight saving). port matched explorer intakes. 24lbs injectors with a MAF to match. 70mm throttle body. I dont want much just a modest 300rwhp thats reliable. I will probably over build the rotating stock with a good crank/rods/pistons just in case I go bigger later on
       
    17. CDW6212R

      CDW6212R Hauls the mail. Elite Explorer

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      Don't buy 24lbs injectors for that mild combination, use 19's that you already have or someone might give you. Also never buy a calibrated MAF, those usually produce poor voltage curves, plus they cannot be used for other injectors.

      I'd suggest any used 302 roller block rather than the $750. A super block like Dart is $2k/overkill, but there is a need for them at a point. If power were to reach 500hp, then a Mexican block is a good option if available, still only $300-$400.

      If 300hp is the goal, it will need better heads than any GT40 or stock type/size models. Hunt for TFS TW heads, 170 bare minimum, 195's preferred. To get to that level, new PCM tuning is required, so plan that into the budget. Skip the new block.


      When I get to building a nice high end engine, the money will go to the heads/intake/cam, Mexican block or similar, nice nice pistons and rods, and tuning. A crank might be a good thought if there is one for the level I'm going for.
       
    18. kanuck15

      kanuck15 Active Member

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      I got tons of 19s laying around, just didnt think they would get the fuel out well enough. All the fox body guys swear that gt40 heads will do over 300 horse with very minor porting. I can pick up explorer motors for 250 a pop ready to run but I have to pull them. Between that cost and the machine work I am probably right around that 750 tag. Plus I already have the pistons and rods so I am using them regardless. Ive also been told (not sure if its worth much) but a stock 5.0 can be turned up to 300hp with just tuning.

      The plan is to build a 400hp motor that runs at 300hp. That way not a single part is strained. This is a daily driver more or less
       
    19. CDW6212R

      CDW6212R Hauls the mail. Elite Explorer

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      I see, but the Explorers rob a bunch of power, more than a Mustang. A 300rwhp Mustang engine might be lucky to see 250rwhp in the Ranger/Explorer.

      The exhaust is a a ton of that. Look at the total area of the pipes of a Mustang as it goes from the heads to the tail pipes. Follow it and notice the sizes of a typical well built Mustang and its exhaust. The Explorer is horrible, yet it is the same engines we are discussing, and people think a single exhaust is enough for the same engine.

      The stock Explorer has collectors that each narrow to 2.125" at one point, plus the resonator has a pinch just before it at the same 2.125" size. The whole exhaust is going through that one spot, yet most Mustangs have two 2.5" pipes or larger, from the collectors to the tips.

      In a perfect world you might get close to 300rwhp with GT40 heads, but you'd have to do a ton of work to the whole combination(perfect match of parts and cam, some porting), plus the exhaust.

      If you can really create 300-400 engine hp, then of course bigger injectors will be needed, say 24-30's depending on what level. The computer can be tuned for anything, that's the good side.

      I mentioned the TFS heads because they make more power for the given cost of the heads. If you can find them used, that may be for $750 or less. They run $1100ish or more new, and there are many choices. Just the normal port flange TW are best for most milder engines. Plus with a stock HO cam, the stock pistons should clear the valves. Check the PTV clearance before selecting rockers.

      Work on the exhaust the most, it is way too small, for the stock 5.0 or any combination. It should have the equivalent area of two 2.5-3.0" pipes, front to back. Don't choke it all into one muffler and tail pipe.
       
    20. kanuck15

      kanuck15 Active Member

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      I got a custom exhaust guy. I have 2.5 from the manifolds back into a double in single out muffler. But the idea is that can be taken off and duals run the whole way back.

      I see what you are saying about weight. But ive weighed my ranger and its not more than a few hundred pounds over a drop top fox body and really close to a SN95 style mustang.

      I never realized the TF heads were that cheap on the used side. If they are that cheap I will probably just go that route then so long as they can accept a gt40 lower intake
       
    21. CDW6212R

      CDW6212R Hauls the mail. Elite Explorer

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      The Twisted Wedge versions have the same port locations so only the piston/valve clearance is a possible issue. Bigger cams than stock usually have to have a piston for them.

      I'd go beyond the GT40 intakes too, look at the TFS or Holley bigger intakes. But then the cam becomes more important due to the greater flow potential. There's power to be gained with a proper cam for those heads/intake(airflow). That's the easiest route to those bigger power numbers, but the pistons/camshaft/tuning are the missing links people skip or ignore.

      You probably know this, but many don't get that those big airflow changes can't(shouldn't) be done and leave the stock PCM programming alone. They don't see that the A/F becomes way lean and blame the "big" parts(losing bottom end). With the right cam and tuning, nothing is lost, airflow increases at all rpm's, and power matches that.

      If you stay normally aspirated, raise the compression when rebuilding the engine, and find the right TFS type pistons if you can find the heads feasibly. They are very popular so it's a matter of finding them and grabbing them before others do.
       
    22. kanuck15

      kanuck15 Active Member

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      Sounds like I need to do some more reading, I thought I had it pretty much figured out. The stock explorer intake has been easily taken well past 325 horse and wasnt the hindrance in the system. I cannot stand how the after market intakes look so thats a lost cause trying to get me to run a TF or an Edlebrock intake on my truck.

      As far as tuning that is more or less covered, the small block ford has been done so many times you basically tell a tuner what you have and they will get you darn close. I am sure some tweaks will need to be made but thats not a big deal.
       
    23. CDW6212R

      CDW6212R Hauls the mail. Elite Explorer

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      I understand about the GT40 intake, that's what I chose for my 347 when I planned it. I didn't like the aftermarket stuff for looks much either, and I thought the GT40 was good enough. I'm going to boost, and I knew that so it didn't make as much of a difference. But as I learned adding an intercooler will demand that is goes right where the upper intake is. So I'll be using a TFS R lower and stack an IC on it, with a plenum made to lead from the top of that to a blower.

      I tried to find a 93 Cobra/Lightning upper, but those are too expensive and no better than the Explorer piece.

      Get started on your exhaust, that alone will take a while to get right.
       
    24. kanuck15

      kanuck15 Active Member

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      I had a cobra upper but it was more work than it was worth to get everything right
       
    25. CDW6212R

      CDW6212R Hauls the mail. Elite Explorer

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      What, is it hard(expensive) to extrude hone those?:eek:

      I have my lower ported by Tom Moss, but those ports are very small compared to the big stuff. I have a Victor 5.0 that I was going to use for the blower project, but it's by consensus about 3rd or 4th best, and not counting the EFI carb intakes.

      The GT40 is a good intake, but the tech is a good 15+ years behind the other choices.

      Go at it slow, maybe by the time you get to a final engine step, I'll be in the middle of my project, and say whether it's going to be feasible. I'm after 450rwhp, down from my old 550 plans. The 4WD parts might not like more, and the stock block can handle 450 easily(why force a $2k extra cost for 100hp).
       
    26. kanuck15

      kanuck15 Active Member

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      Thats my biggest concern is not the motor so much as the rest of the drive line. I really dont want to be forced to put a sterling 10.25 out back just to hold the power
       

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