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Problem with 5.0 manual M5R2 swap clutch won't disengage

Discussion in 'Modified 1995-2001 Explorers' started by oddball101, April 16, 2016.

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    1. oddball101

      oddball101 Member

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      Well, after reading a few threads along with my desire for manual control, I went for the M5R2 swap with my 2001 Ranger edge (2000 5.0 Mountaineer donor). Following in the footsteps of others, it was pretty straight forward until it came time to test the clutch.

      When the truck is off, I can run it through the gears. When the truck is on, I cannot. I bled the clutch 3 ways from Sunday and I know it is properly bled. I bench bled it. Installed it. Bled it again. Tried engaging in 1st with the truck on and no go. Pulled the master cylinder out of the firewall, pumped it upside down like it was cool. Tried it again. No go.

      Through the bell housing, I can see the slave moving a bit better than half an inch or so. Pedal feels as it should, stiff from start all the way down to the floor. I used all new master (#10574) / slave cylinder, flywheel clutch disk, pressure plate, pilot, etc.

      With the front wheels blocked and the rear wheels off the ground (front driveshaft disconnected) I put the tranny in 1st then started it with my foot on the clutch. It ran in gear at idle for a minute while I pumped the clutch pedal. I was able to get it out of 1st and then with "effort" get it into 2nd, then 3rd. The other gears, 4th, 5th, and Reverse, were still too hard to get into.

      As of now, I don't know what else to do.

      I could use a little forum magic guys..
       
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    3. SoHK_alumni

      SoHK_alumni Active Member

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      Getting the stock Ranger M/C to move enough fluid for the larger throw out/Slave Cyls is likely the most common problem with the manual conversion.

      I have read of a guy that used a Ford F550 master cylinder -- only took minor mods to get it into his V8 Ranger but his path used an external slave cyl.

      His finding was the F550 had the largest bore he could find that was similar to the Ranger's and would not take a ton of work to install.
       
    4. oddball101

      oddball101 Member

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      Interesting. I'm using the explorer 4.0 master, but I'm sure it's the same thing. F550 master though, huh.. Do you have access to any of his pics or any other specifics?

      I'd be interested to learn more. I'm not opposed to trying anything at the point.
       
    5. boominXplorer

      boominXplorer Elite Ranger Elite Explorer

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      Sure everything with the input shaft and bearing is good? When the bearing goes bad it starts holding up the input shaft it will keep it spinning even when the clutch is pushed in and keep the gearbox locked out.
       
    6. RangerX

      RangerX Elite Ranger Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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      Or go with a master from something that runs the 5.0/m5r2 combo...?
       
    7. Blacksheep Josh

      Blacksheep Josh Slinky+Escalator=Fun

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      SoHK_alumni is speaking of this thread I believe:
      http://www.rangerpowersports.com/forum/v8-builds/270463-2wd-98-coil-spring-5-0-swap.html

      The problem is that the guy in the above thread isn't using the same transmission. He is using a transmission that has an external slave cylinder. His idea won't work for you.

      The M5OD-R2, has an internal slave cylinder that goes around the input shaft. If you reference this thread:
      http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=400776

      You can find a parts list on post #130
      http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2266284&postcount=130

      He says the Master Cylinder used is from an Explorer, not a Ranger. I verified and they are in fact two separate parts. Clutch slave cylinders are the same. Chances are, if you swap out the Ranger Clutch Master for the Explorer Clutch Master, it'll work as it should.

      Edit: I've been through the threads mentioned a million times as I'm currently in my own 5.0 swap in an 01 Edge. Both of these threads I've referenced almost weekly for a year. The second thread also has a few posts about the harness and which connectors need to be deleted and/or jumped.
       
    8. SoHK_alumni

      SoHK_alumni Active Member

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    9. Blacksheep Josh

      Blacksheep Josh Slinky+Escalator=Fun

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      That's the same guy. He used a cylinder so he had more throw, but if you look throughout his threads, you'll find a bracket that he used to install an external slave cylinder. Here, I even found it for you:
      http://s256.photobucket.com/user/jbrown1238/media/DSC07309_zps4b1b3836.jpg.html
      Here's where he mentions the transmission he'll be using:
      http://www.rangerpowersports.com/forum/v8-builds/270463-2wd-98-coil-spring-5-0-swap.html#post2362340

      His idea, while a good one, isn't going to be the fix for the issue he's having above. He also goes on to state that he's had multiple issues with the setup as well leading to several replacements IIRC.

      Edit: The slave went out at 17k and again at 28k with the master as well.
      http://www.svtperformance.com/forum...nator-quot&p=15126178&viewfull=1#post15126178
       
    10. oddball101

      oddball101 Member

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      boominXplorer- I am NOT sure everything is good with the pilot bearing. I am not sure how to even check, but it would help narrow things down. The pilot bearing I used is I used is Dorman#14677.

      RangerX- The master from the 96 f150 doesn't share in design principle too much to allow for its use. Seeing how Nick26 was able to get his to work properly using the explorer master, I figured I "should" be able to as well.

      Master Cylinder = Autozone#10574 (explorer) / Ranger =#10649
      -I used the explorer master cylinder thinking it would need to be stronger. It fit installation perfectly.

      Slave cylinder = Autozone#12596 ( same for explorer, ranger, 96 f150)
      Clutch line =

      Blacksheep Josh- I chose the explorer components after seeing Nick26's success using them in his thread. In fact, his thread was the guide for my swap. Yes, the ranger and explorer masters are different, I think I had the slave in my head while talking about the masters or something. I am thinking the ranger master may be plastic while the explorer master is metal..? Not sure on that.

      SoHK_alumni- I see what you mean by the 550 master.. It is kind of funny because I remember when jbrown started that thread from the beginning and how much awe I was to see the attention (serious, serious attention) to detail in his work. As it stands, that 550 master is about the only thing I think may overcome my problem, but it still poses the question- why could I not get it to work in my combo when others have..?

      I must admit, the clutch pedal feels like it just doesn't have enough umph. I actually just came inside from reinstalling a replacement master hoping (longshot) that was the issue. Not so much. Same effect. I think I am now starting to beat up the slave input as well after having removed the retaining clamp/pin so many times.

      I will see if I can work something out with that 550 master tomorrow. I may even do the slight trim work that jbrown did a little later on to accommodate the extra 1/8th travel.

      I really appreciate the ideas guys. I just hope I didn't mess something up during my install somehow because it "should" be able to work as is. Maybe the 550 will do it. It's worth a shot.

      Is it possible I used the wrong pilot bearing?
       
    11. boominXplorer

      boominXplorer Elite Ranger Elite Explorer

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      I can't remember if there is a dust plug you can pull out to check the clutch on these. If so have a buddy hit the clutch and watch to see if the throw out bearing moves.

      The blown out pilot bearing I was describing had me thinking clutch at first when I was working on a 2010 mustang with 100k all stock v6 car. It was very hard at times to shift gears but if you played with it enough you could get it in. I ordered a new clutch and pulled the trans out to find the clutch still good but the pilot bearing had turned into powdered rust.

      In your situation it hasn't worked yet so it hasn't had time to go bad. I really don't have time to cross reference all the part numbers but you could have the wrong inner diameter bearing which is locked on to the input shaft. Did the trans slide in nice or did you have to fight it to get it to seat against the engine?
       
    12. oddball101

      oddball101 Member

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      I do have the dust cover and the slave is new (has the throwout bearing included). Watched it through the hole yesterday a bunch. The throwout bearing has what appears to be just over a half inch of movement.

      I used extended bolts to walk the tranny into the block. There were no "tough spots", it was a pretty simple process to use the longer bolts to guide it.

      I just ordered the F550 clutch master cylinder and it should be in by 2 (est). I will try this one out and see how it works.. It better work because I'm going to butcher my pedal assembly to make it fit.
       
    13. oddball101

      oddball101 Member

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      Installed the F550 clutch master cylinder. Still a no go. I can certainly tell the difference in pedal pressure and throwout bearing travel though. With the rear still on jacks, I started her up in 1st gear holding the clutch in. The wheels still spun in gear, not the little bit they would at idle. I popped the clutch a couple times to no effect.

      Lastly, with the clutch still pressed all the way in, I applied the brakes to stop the rear wheels from spinning and I could hear what I believe to be the clutch disk spinning on the surface of the flywheel. At that point I took it out of gear and shut her off.

      The F550 was an easy mod just as jbrown depicted in his thread and did its job. The pedal pressure is right on with no play and the travel it creates for the slave is good to go. One thing I will note for anyone who may choose to use the F550 clutch master cylinder though, is that the push-rod is shorter than the push-rod for the rangers & explorers. Be sure to yank the push-rod out of a donor (ranger or Explorer) clutch master and swap it out for the one that comes with the F550 clutch master. I would recommend this for anyone needing more clutch cylinder power.

      As for me, I am at a serious loss. Whatever is going on has to be between the tranny and the motor. I don't see any other options but to drop the tranny again and hope and pray that I find something I can recognize and take care of. I don't even know what else to look for. I didn't burn up the flywheel with the clutch disk or anthing. It just seems that no matter what I do, I cannot get the clutch disk to disengage from the flywheel.

      I am tired and officially bummed out. Taking it easy tonight to think about what else I can do.

      btw- The pilot bearing I used was for the 96 F150 5.0 that came with the M5R2.

      Who knows, maybe it got bound up somehow.
       
    14. oddball101

      oddball101 Member

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      After sleeping on it last night, I am thinking it has to be some kind of binding issue due to some kind of misalignment. I am pretty confident that the F550 master is working properly. I mean I can really feel the difference in pedal pressure. It is definitely a bit more stiff, but not anywhere near "leg press stiff". I like the feel of that in combination with the Core shifter (w/ ranger handle).

      When I installed the tranny, I did have to jack up the rear of the tranny with the torque converter seemingly high to get the crossmember installed, using the 4r70w mount with the m5r2. It fit with a stock appearance and a seemingly low profile, so I figured it would be good to go with a 1.5" drop in crossmember height taken off by the local shop. Perhaps it s still sitting too high in the rear.

      My next thought is after disconnecting the driveshaft from the tranny, I could loosen the bell bolts about an inch, back it off that same distance, shake the hell out of it, reinstall at a slightly lower angle in the rear, and then with the tranny on a jack stand and still disconnected from the driveshaft, try running the motor and disengaging the clutch.

      Would this be a plausible approach, or should I really just be looking at dropping the tranny and starting completely over again, reinstalling a new pilot bearing and all?

      Here are the parts I used:
      - Zoom OE Flywheel, 164 tooth 50oz manual - (96 F150, summit 50-710)
      - Block plate BOSS 302 (D0AZ-7007-A) <-I was surprised at the thickness
      - Clutch Pressure Plate Centerforce I (summit CF360049)
      - Clutch Disc Centerforce (summit 281226)
      - Pilot bearing # 14677
       
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    15. oddball101

      oddball101 Member

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      So I dropped the driveshaft and lowered the tranny crossmember about a half inch, then started her up and tried shifting through the gears. With a little less effort I was able to get it into 1st through 4th. I believe my issue is binding of the input shaft. Hopefully this is correct.

      I have already dropped off my tranny mount to get welded. I cut the top off, then effectively placed the top section with the mounting holes under the base in the exact same position it would normally be in, but flush with the cut line. The contour of the mount makes it only fit one way.

      Fingers crossed hoping this resolves my issues.
       
    16. oddball101

      oddball101 Member

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      Tested again tonight with the rear lowered to what I believe is the proper height. I can shift into 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and reverse only with the truck running. 5th gear feels like I'm hitting some kind of brick wall. No grinding, no whining, just a thud kind of sound. When the truck is off, I have no problem shifting into 5th.

      I hear there are issues with the 5th and reverse gears, but since I have reverse, I'm hoping someone can give me some insight as to what I can check to potentially reclaim 5th. I did have the top cover off to install the plugs and check the gears before putting it back on. I also replaced the shifter as well since mine didn't come with one (was going to swap it anyway).
       
    17. oddball101

      oddball101 Member

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      Pic of the slave. You can see the blue plastic teeth around the base of the throwout bearing have been chewed by the centerforce tension ring.
      [​IMG]

      Currently I have been testing functionality with the driveshaft removed but the rear end is still on jack stands. I was going to loosen the bell housing bolts and give her a shake but before doing that, I found that I could cycle all of the gears (minus 5th) with the motor running which was progress so I stopped there.

      Here are some pics of my shift forks.
      [​IMG]
      [​IMG]
      [​IMG]
      [​IMG]

      Do the forks look worn? I cannot really tell what is good or bad here.

      Is there a chance that I could have bound something up with the 5th & reverse selector when reinstalling the top cover? I have reverse gear still so I don't know about that either.
       
    18. oddball101

      oddball101 Member

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      Annd I believe I found the real culprit. Too large a shoulder on the pressure plate bolts to let it draw in completely flat to the flywheel upon torquing to spec.
      [​IMG]

      The moral of the story, ladies and gentlemen, is not to rely on the eyes of others when scoping out the stages of a transmission install.
       
    19. oddball101

      oddball101 Member

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      The problem is that I read the Centerforce instructions and they stated not to use washers with the pressure plate. I just got off the phone with them asking about that and I was told it is fine to do so as long as you're using thread locker and leaving enough room for the shank to penetrate (acting as the guide). That rule mostly applies to those who don't realize the purpose for the shank (shoulder) at the base of the bolt.

      So that solves it then. I'll put the washers back on them to see if that works, and if not, I will hit up Lowe's.
       
    20. Gimpy117

      Gimpy117 New Member

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      if that's an M5OD derivative they can be a little fussy about washers etc, not surprised you're having bearing issues
       
    21. oddball101

      oddball101 Member

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      No bearing issues here. The pic above is what my problem was. The pressure plate wasn't fully being seated after torqueing to spec.

      I completed the swap and it is going as expected. Loaded the tune and all is well in the world.

      I'll repeat that when installing the pressure plate, it actually is ok to use lock washers on the bolts, you just have to use thread locker (as you always should).
       
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    22. 96ex5.0

      96ex5.0 Elite Explorer

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      On the master I used an 89 ranger setup with an 88 f150 slave, should all be here somewhere on my write up.
       
    23. Shadetreeandme

      Shadetreeandme New Member

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      Hi, I could use some magic too if you would wave a wand on me. I got this 1997 Ford F150 . I mated a 1989 5.0 to a 1999 4.2 M5R2 and i got the same problem i think. I can jack up the wheels and i can shift out but as soon as i let it down i cannot for the life of me get it to open the pressure plate off the flywheel disc. May i ask exactly what you did to insure a good grip on the clutch disc and still be able to get it to release? I could use some expert advice here to an old man that thought he could figure out most of these swaps. If you don't mind helping me out. thanks,
       
    24. oddball101

      oddball101 Member

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      Hey, no worries. Assuming everything else is correct with your master and slave cylinders, fluids, and such, There are two things that come to mind.

      One is the same issue I had with the pressure plate to flywheel bolts. The bolts I used had washers and the clutch I used specifically stated not to use washers. Without the washers, the bolts didn't fully seat all of the way, meaning that they didn't actually pull the pressure plate to the flywheel. You can see this gap in my last pic. I called CenterForce who stated that using washers is fine and that they only say that to ward people away from going to Ace Hardware and just picking up any old thing that will fit without taking strength into consideration.

      Second is alignment. In my application I needed to ensure that the motor was squared up properly to the face of the transmission. This can be easy or hard but our applications are spatially different. Yours is full size and the tranny mounts (or some variant of) may already be in the correct position. That is information you will have to figure out. For our ranger/explorer applications, mating an m5r2 to the 5.0w requires that our tranny mounts be lowered about 1.5 inches.

      I would focus on these two things first. I may not be on here a lot, but I will look forward to hearing if you were able to make progress.

      Wish you luck.
       
    25. 96ex5.0

      96ex5.0 Elite Explorer

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      Make sure the master and slave mach close in year, I tried to use a 90+ master on my 89 slave and it would not release the clutch. Swapped to an 89 master and never had trouble again.
       
    26. Shadetreeandme

      Shadetreeandme New Member

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      I am a little late getting back in but i took the transfer case off the trans and then pulled it and it was kinda stuck hard but took a look at the pilot shaft and it seems there is no rubbing on the end or side. I am going to do a precision clutch video like the you tube set up. I have another 5.0 on the ground with my trans bolted and no disc or plate to check if there is some pilot or alignment problem at first. I am then going to install the disc and plate and do the bleed on the slave and master. I got an old clutch pedal assemble mounted to a 4x6 post on my shed and will do the push on the master to see if the trans will not turn with the master engaged. If it still does not disengage first gear or any gear then i think the slave could be shimmed up from behind somehow to give me 1/8 to 1/4 more forward to engage better to the fingers and see if that will do the trick. I am hoping i can figure this out. I have noticed that the finger height was more on the 4.2 plate vs. the 5.0 plate. I will try both pressure plates to see if that makes some difference. I will get back after this heat settles some, so hot here now. tc,
       
      Last edited: August 2, 2017

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