Replacing Jackshaft & Left cam cassette tensioners...and more?

[skloczko]

Alright, So everything done. Put back together, connected etc. Got the cam timed up nicely and measured the best I could, looks perfect to the eye.

Much quieter than before I started this project....but...there is a noise on the drivers side coming from within the valve cover. Before any of this I visually inspected all the valves, rockers, all that stuff...so I'm kind of at a loss.

The sound is a tick, a little louder than say a small leak in a manifold. Engine starts, sound quiets down, then gets louder and stays, engine runs well otherwise...as far as just letting it idle.

Any clue as to what this could be? Im assuming valve problem, but cant figure out what about that would make that noise...

 

[skloczko]

Following the Haynes Manual...I've been narrowing down what the sound could be by taking one spark plug wire off at a time. I still have to do this to cylinders 2 and 3, but Im fairly confident that the noise was coming from the drivers side thanks to the engine stethoscope...

What I should have narrowed down doing this is : 1.worn or damaged crankshaft bearings or unevenly worn crankshaft, 2.worn or damaged connecting rod bearings, 3.abnormal piston and cylinder wear, 4.worn piston pin or piston pin hole.

What I have narrowed it down to "valve tapping". According to the manual I could try a high viscosity oil treatment to cure a stuck lifter. Or, if the problem continues I will have to remove lifters, and rocker arms for inspection.

Going to be doing a leakdown test today anyways.

 

[2000StreetRod]

Congratulations!

Congratulations on getting your engine back together and running!

 

[skloczko]

Congratulations on getting your engine back together and running!

Thank you for all of your help!

Now to pinpoint and confirm stuck lifter! Woo!

 

[skloczko]

I think I'm buying another motor and doing a swap.

 

[2000StreetRod]

Are you serious?

I think I'm buying another motor and doing a swap.

Why are you considering an engine swap?

 

[skloczko]

I am at a loss. I canNOT pinpoint this sound with the stethoscope. Sounds like it is drivers side but I cannot be sure. I can assume its top end and not crank or connecting rods, or possibly even piston problems... but how failsafe is the "remove one spark plug wire at a time and cranl" method? For a minute I thought I heard another noise but it was for a few seconds and then havent heard it again. I really want to check the right side cam to make sure its in time. But for the time spent, as much fun as I'm having and all the learning, I feel I may be better off getting a 100k motor for $600 bucks that is warrantied for 6 mos' and do a swap....


AHHHHH!

 

[McSlug]

Did you replace the lower intake gaskets? These are a problem, the original ones dried up and cracked.
I would check the plugs and leads any fault with these can cause a ticking/knocking sound. My leads are very hard to seat on the plugs and I had issues with one not being on properly (#5) which caused a knocking type sound.
Did you inspect the rear cassette?
Try doing a compression test starting on the faulty side.
Try doing a vacuum test, the manual has diagnosis for many issues using vacuum gauge.
Try pulling the codes from the computer, it prob wont diagnose your prob but it might lead you in the right direction.

(My 2c) I don't like the idea of another engine. The original timing parts are flawed by design and will fail. Prob right after warranty. You may have to do the lower intake gaskets and screw in tensioners (as per the OOM12 recall) as well. I think you would find yourself inside the engine sooner than you hoped.

 

[2000StreetRod]

Does warranty include engine replacement?

I am at a loss. I canNOT pinpoint this sound with the stethoscope. Sounds like it is drivers side but I cannot be sure. I can assume its top end and not crank or connecting rods, or possibly even piston problems... but how failsafe is the "remove one spark plug wire at a time and cranl" method? For a minute I thought I heard another noise but it was for a few seconds and then havent heard it again. I really want to check the right side cam to make sure its in time. But for the time spent, as much fun as I'm having and all the learning, I feel I may be better off getting a 100k motor for $600 bucks that is warrantied for 6 mos' and do a swap....
AHHHHH!

Does the 6 month warranty for a replacement engine include the cost of another engine swap if the engine fails? The timing chains on the pre 2002 models have failed as early as 45,000 miles. You might be just buying another set of new problems.

The only way to check the timing is to pull the valve covers and check the alignment of the slots on the camshaft when the #1 piston is at TDC on compression stroke. Removing the right valve cover takes some time because of the heater hoses and limited access to the rear valve cover bolt. I thought it was worth the time just to determine the condition of the rear guide assembly. Turns out mine was destroyed. Since you ended up removing the jackshaft front sprocket the right bank valve spring pressure could have moved the camshaft and jackshaft relative to the crankshaft and probably should be checked.

 

[skloczko]

Since you ended up removing the jackshaft front sprocket the right bank valve spring pressure could have moved the camshaft and jackshaft relative to the crankshaft and probably should be checked.

Well, I actually managed to do everything without having to take that sprocket out, so Im hoping nothing moved on the right side. Although given all that was broken who knows if the chain could have slipped. And the new engine does seem to just be a whole new set of concerns.

 

[skloczko]

Did you replace the lower intake gaskets? These are a problem, the original ones dried up and cracked.
I would check the plugs and leads any fault with these can cause a ticking/knocking sound. My leads are very hard to seat on the plugs and I had issues with one not being on properly (#5) which caused a knocking type sound.
Did you inspect the rear cassette?
Try doing a compression test starting on the faulty side.
Try doing a vacuum test, the manual has diagnosis for many issues using vacuum gauge.
Try pulling the codes from the computer, it prob wont diagnose your prob but it might lead you in the right direction.

(My 2c) I don't like the idea of another engine. The original timing parts are flawed by design and will fail. Prob right after warranty. You may have to do the lower intake gaskets and screw in tensioners (as per the OOM12 recall) as well. I think you would find yourself inside the engine sooner than you hoped.

Hi there, thanks for the tips! I did have quite a bit of trouble taking off the spark plug leads when I was doing some tests before I tried starting. I removed, #'s 1 4 5 & 6. And I had a h*ll of a time trying to get them off in the first place. When I did, the spark plugs look about 10 years old, gap off about .02+ and worn. I wasnt going to replace the plugs/wires until I knew everything ele was fixed. Might be worth it?

Also, could those lower intake gaskets be shot? I never took off the lower manifold, but I bet they very well could be bad. If so could this cause the ticking/knocking sound Im hearing?

 

[skloczko]

Oh and I listened with the stethoscope in the area of that rear cassette, didnt hear anything but your average valve train noise

 

[McSlug]

I highly recommend doing the intake gaskets. The original one's dry out and crack. Mine where shot but did not cause a knocking sound only rough idle and running lean.
Make sure all plugs and leads are working and in correct order. You may have damaged a lead when taking it off.
I would pull the valve covers and do the intake at the same time. I know its a PITA but you can check your timing, check for sticky lifter and do the intake.
If you loosened the jack shaft bolt then it is more than likely the right cam has slipped. If you didn't then it shouldn't have.

 

[skloczko]

My game plan this weekend...
1) Change all the spark plugs, make sure theyre seated and in the leads good
2) Try taking the belt off and starting it, just to rule out something simple
3) Take off upper and lower intake manifold and do the lower gaskets (upper again if needed..kit came with both)
4) Take off right side valve cover and check that timing, and the rear cassette
5) Run codes if I need to after that


My brother's take on the situation:
heres what it most likely is. you bent a valve the first time around. its not closing fully so you are losing power on that cylinder. the noise is the follower losing contact with the cam since the hydraulic adjuster cant make up for the extra play. do a leakdown test like i said, to be sure. you will have to pull the head off and bring it to a machine shop to have a valve job done. do not rush taking the head off. spend the next week or 2 soaking the manifold bolts with penetrating lube each day. its prob the only chance you have to not break one off inside the head. leave the valvetrain fully assembled in the head.

Any comments?

 

[2000StreetRod]

Misfire code?

. . . you bent a valve the first time around. its not closing fully so you are losing power on that cylinder. the noise is the follower losing contact with the cam since the hydraulic adjuster cant make up for the extra play. do a leakdown test like i said, to be sure. . .

If you have low power in one cylinder due to a valve not closing I think that you would have a misfire code set. Have you done a compression test to see if one cylinder is low? You may just have crud in one of the lash adjusters after working on the engine.

Changing the lower intake manifold gaskets is a good idea even if it has nothing to do with the sound that you're hearing.

 

[skloczko]

Hi there. Have started disassembling the intake manifolds last night. Plan on taking the valve covers off again while I can to check everything, especially right side.

Bought the cylinder compression (leakdown) tester yesterday as well. Plan on getting some serious work done on Saturday......after I get the Harley out and get some miles in while I can...been real cold up here in RI.

Thanks guys, I'll let you know what I find.

On a side note...twice now I've had to get under and knock the starter with a hammer cus its gotten stuck. I read a little about how some people have experienced starter problems which created a knock echoing throughout the bell housing. That was such a p.i.t.a to get on and off....but I dont think that could be it anyways, because I have the loss of power problem...

 

[skloczko]

Arrrgh!

:frustrate:frustrateUpdate!

Ok, so Compression and leak down test seems to check out.....TTested all three cylinders on the drivers side, and the #1 cylinder passenger side. Going to attempt to check cylinder 2 and 3, very little access there.... But Ive concluded that I will get the same result.

I removed upper and lower intake manifolds, both valve covers at this point, purchased necessary gasket kits and cleaned everything as needed. Checked out rear cassette and used a nifty snake camera that I borrowed to go down the chain a bit. All good on that front....

At a loss as far as where to go from here. Ive narrowed out most bottom end problems when I would remove one spark plug at a time.

Not sure what to try next...maybe the starter and see if thats messed up? I can reconnect the manifolds and all that mess of stuff and run it with the valve covers off for a bit and see what I can hear/see.

Im also eliminating the possibility of the spark plug leads not being on all the way, because of the fact that I removed one spark plug wire at a time with the engine running and still heard the noise.

Ahhh!

 

[skloczko]

Lash adjusters maybe? Just maybe....?

 

[2000StreetRod]

Dirt?

Glad to hear that your rear cassette looks OK. Did you check the camshaft timing while you had the cover off?

It's very difficult to work on an engine without disturbing the buildup of deposits. Some grit may have been dislodged and found its way to a lash adjuster. When I finally get my engine reassembled I will install economy oil filters and economy conventional oil. I'll run the engine until it warms up, add engine flush, run for another five minutes and then change the oil and filters. You may want to try an engine flush and oil/filter change.

 

[skloczko]

1) Looking at both cams....
-Pulley is set at TDC 0 degrees...
-Leftside cam is set so that the cutout is parallel to the head
-Rightside cam is set so the cutout is about 10-15 degrees turned counterclockwise
??Should both of these be perfectly parallel to the head cover, or is this just a guideline theory?

2)So I priced a set of lash adjusters (12), at $17 ea from ford, I'm looking at $214 with tax. For 2 reman heads with all parts, ready to bolt on - I'm looking at $300 plus shipping.

$$$$$$$

Can I pull out the lash adjusters and soak them, clean them etc to make them "unstuck" and try seeing if that works? Or is trying to clean the lifters not worth it? I read in the Haynes manual to just replace them...