Dismiss Notice



Register Today It's free! This box will disappear once registered!

Tuning my 347 with rear mount turbo

Discussion in 'EEC V' started by Dono, January 29, 2016.

  • Searches ExplorerForum.com
    1. vroomzoomboom

      vroomzoomboom Elite Canuck STOCK SUCKS! Elite Explorer

      Joined:
      January 22, 2007
      Messages:
      8,672
      Likes Received:
      188
      Trophy Points:
      83
      City, State:
      selkirk, manitoba
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      98 supercharged 347 sport
      i dont think that its your behind, i think that its more like i care less if i scatter the motor all over the road then you do, because its not my daily driver lol
       
    2. Support EF

      Join the Elite Explorers for $20

      Explorer Forum has probably saved you that much already, and will continue to save you money as you learn how to diagnose fix problems yourself, and learn which modifications work without having to experiment on your own. Elite Explorer members see practically no ads, can add their own profile photo, upload photo attachments in all forums, and Media Gallery, create more private Conversations, and more. Join Today. Your support is greatly appreciated.


      to hide adverts.
    3. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

      Joined:
      February 18, 2009
      Messages:
      4,633
      Likes Received:
      95
      Trophy Points:
      68
      City, State:
      Winnipeg, Manitoba
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      00 Limited V8
      lol.
      I did some wot tonight coming home from work...hesitation, cough, sputter, etc. :(

      I made some maf transfer adjustments under higher load, and I'll see what I get. With a sputtering vehicle, its hard to get a a/f reading that's actually usable. Seemed to be about 5000rpm. More to come on this.
       
    4. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

      Joined:
      February 18, 2009
      Messages:
      4,633
      Likes Received:
      95
      Trophy Points:
      68
      City, State:
      Winnipeg, Manitoba
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      00 Limited V8
      I'm pretty sure this is my issue. I did manage to make it worse. lol
      This curve worked with tho old turbo.
      I'm going to try taking that out by inserting the values from my base tune from just before that spot and re-curving the inserted upper curve to match what I had already done down low. I only needed to multiply the base tune curve by 1.05, so lets see what the next pull produces.
      upload_2016-10-18_18-58-34.png

      after:
      upload_2016-10-18_19-2-16.png
       
    5. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

      Joined:
      February 18, 2009
      Messages:
      4,633
      Likes Received:
      95
      Trophy Points:
      68
      City, State:
      Winnipeg, Manitoba
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      00 Limited V8
      Re-curve was a success. Truck pulled clean. I have not been able to pull past 5000rpm yet due to road conditions.
      The transition under wot to the richer a/f ratio still leaves a hump in the curve though.
      My question at this point is, do I re-normalize the maf points so that I get a few more spots to tune the a/f ratio as it transitions from stoich? Maybe if I moved the data point just below the hump up a bit, and the data point above the hump down slightly in maf add counts? That might help the resolution thru transition?
      What do you think 4pointslow?
      upload_2016-10-19_12-18-18.png
       
    6. 4pointslow

      4pointslow Explorer Torture Tester Elite Explorer

      Joined:
      April 3, 2008
      Messages:
      2,433
      Likes Received:
      142
      Trophy Points:
      83
      City, State:
      Gloucester City, NJ
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      98 2Dr,98 & 04 4dr xlt
      That would be a perfect example of why you might change the datapoints on the left, to fix that trouble spot.
      That first picture almost looked like the one dot was lower than the previous dot. Make sure the numbers are all going bigger as they go up the MAF transfer function like in the last picture.
      Honestly that little ramp doesn't look so bad and may not need to be changed, unless you are still experiencing a running problem there.
      Test it and see how it feels both ways.
       
    7. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

      Joined:
      February 18, 2009
      Messages:
      4,633
      Likes Received:
      95
      Trophy Points:
      68
      City, State:
      Winnipeg, Manitoba
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      00 Limited V8
      I sent my tune to Don Lasota to have a look at while I have my motor lifted waiting on getting my header fixed.

      Don said my timing is to low at wot, creating to much heat. Not the reason my header cracked as it was clearly crimped from the exhaust shop pushing the pipe away from the frame.

      Anyway, I think the smartest thing to do is drop the boost to around 6 to 8lbs and up the timing in the short term. Long term, I'll be working on installing my water/meth kit.
       
    8. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

      Joined:
      February 18, 2009
      Messages:
      4,633
      Likes Received:
      95
      Trophy Points:
      68
      City, State:
      Winnipeg, Manitoba
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      00 Limited V8
      ok, back at it.
      New motor, new hope.
      The tuning seems like it has not changed much. Here's a pic showing the SCT histogram average for the long term fuel trims.
      I really prerfer tuning the maf this way, as adaptive learning will just adjust its self to this anyway. Thanks 4pointslow. Love it.

      Also, you see the low maf count (124)? Im wondering if this is a long time issue I was having. I would get my crank fuel pulse width so my truck would start, then after a few days of driving with adaptive learning on I'd have a hard start issue. This makes sense to me, so I have multiplied 124 and 108 by 1.06. Lets see if this fixes the weird hard start issue.
      I also tried lowering my idle in park and drive just a hair to see if I can dial in the bottom of the maf curve better.
      upload_2017-6-2_15-29-16.png
       
      • Like Like x 1
    9. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

      Joined:
      February 18, 2009
      Messages:
      4,633
      Likes Received:
      95
      Trophy Points:
      68
      City, State:
      Winnipeg, Manitoba
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      00 Limited V8
      I'm lovin the J&S Vampire knock control unit.

      First, I thought it wasn't working as it would light off really bad at lower loads and then throw the check engine light on with multiple codes about coil failure.

      I logged where this was happening (Around .45 load and 2500rpm) and made some timing adjustments.
      upload_2017-6-8_20-34-23.png

      Wen't for another drive, and problem gone. I couldn't hear any detonation, but obviously it was there before making the timing change. I pulled about 5 degree's timing out and normalized the surrounding area using sophisticated wild assed guessing.
      The vampire unit was obviously trying to pull so much timing it gave the pcm fits. lol No more check engine light.

      This will be time consuming tuning as you log, make note of where the J&S gauge lit off, and review the log at that point in time. Look at rpm and load, then reduce timing in that area. Upload new tune. Rinse, and repeat.

      @4pointslow, do you know of any way to make easy note of a particular spot when logging in livelink? It would be awesome if I could just reach over and hit the space bar while driving and have my log marked for review later.

      Its interesting that I could not hear detonation and actually had factory timing in that area of the tune. I guess the turbo is pushing more air earlier than I would have expected at lower loads.

      The knock detector is at least as important as a wideband o2 in my opinion. It's a tuning tool that should be installed in any forced induction application (Even temporarily for a few weeks while tuning is performed). I'm trying to get a couple of degree's below where the knock sensor is set off.
      I may try to create another tune later that under load it just barely registers knock and hopefully is only retarding a couple of cylinders. This would be max power.

      Just finding that lower load detonation issue makes it all worth it.

      Once my V-band clamp comes in, I'll get my wastegate fixed up so I can control boost and continue WOT tuning. Drive-ability of my truck is starting to near a factory vehicle.

      upload_2017-6-8_20-33-30.png
       
      • Like Like x 1
    10. CDW6212R

      CDW6212R Hauls the mail. Elite Explorer

      Joined:
      June 17, 2004
      Messages:
      16,555
      Media:
      3
      Albums:
      1
      Likes Received:
      300
      Trophy Points:
      113
      City, State:
      Knoxville, TN
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      98 Limited AWD
      Great to hear, that sounds like a positive tuning method and tool.
       
    11. 4pointslow

      4pointslow Explorer Torture Tester Elite Explorer

      Joined:
      April 3, 2008
      Messages:
      2,433
      Likes Received:
      142
      Trophy Points:
      83
      City, State:
      Gloucester City, NJ
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      98 2Dr,98 & 04 4dr xlt
      Hook up the output from the Vampire to the analog input to the X3or 4. That way you will see the rpm and load where the detonation took place in the datalog.

      It is a shame that some vehicles did not come with a knock sensor from the factory. My 1998 did and it has proven to be one of the most necessary things along with the wideband O2 setup.
      My 2004 has factory knock sensor but it doesn't datalog correctly with the datalogging software, I hope that SCT/Derive gets it working soon.
       
      • Like Like x 1
    12. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

      Joined:
      February 18, 2009
      Messages:
      4,633
      Likes Received:
      95
      Trophy Points:
      68
      City, State:
      Winnipeg, Manitoba
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      00 Limited V8
      Here's me being lazy.

      When I take my ohm meter, do you know if I'm looking for the wire that's on the tip of the 3.5mm plug? I'm pretty sure that's standard.
       
    13. 4pointslow

      4pointslow Explorer Torture Tester Elite Explorer

      Joined:
      April 3, 2008
      Messages:
      2,433
      Likes Received:
      142
      Trophy Points:
      83
      City, State:
      Gloucester City, NJ
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      98 2Dr,98 & 04 4dr xlt
      There is a dedicated out put for datalogging, I will look it up......
      Edit: From one page it says the tip is 12 volts, don't use that one.
      The signal is the "ring" area or middle contact part of the 1/8 jack.
       
    14. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

      Joined:
      February 18, 2009
      Messages:
      4,633
      Likes Received:
      95
      Trophy Points:
      68
      City, State:
      Winnipeg, Manitoba
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      00 Limited V8
      Appreciated. for some reason, I struggle with finding documentation on this.

      Edit: Done. An exercise in frustration. I should have bought a new cable and worked with it. The wires inside that cable are crazy small.

      I had 3 wires to pick from. ! was red, so I made the assumption that was 12v. The only way to get a reading with my meter was to scrape a wire with a knife first. 50/50 chance. wrong one. shit. a slight bit of electrical tape, and back in the sheathing. I opened up a different area of the cable and found the right wire. Now to solder to it. lol. Painful. Success though, my ohm meter tells me everything is good, with no shorts either. I need a beer.

      I tried removing vacuum to the vampire and rapping on the knock sensor. I couldn't get a reading on livelink, but I couldn't see the vampire gauge either....So I have no idea if its working. Seat time logging will tell me. Back to that beer.
       
      Last edited: June 10, 2017
    15. 4pointslow

      4pointslow Explorer Torture Tester Elite Explorer

      Joined:
      April 3, 2008
      Messages:
      2,433
      Likes Received:
      142
      Trophy Points:
      83
      City, State:
      Gloucester City, NJ
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      98 2Dr,98 & 04 4dr xlt
      If I remember correctly the Vampire will not retard knock under a certain RPM, 1700 I think.
      That may be why it doesn't prove out at Idle?
      Beer sounds good.
       
    16. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

      Joined:
      February 18, 2009
      Messages:
      4,633
      Likes Received:
      95
      Trophy Points:
      68
      City, State:
      Winnipeg, Manitoba
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      00 Limited V8
      4pointslow, absolutely correct. I forgot to wedge a board in between the seat and peddle to get rpm's up.

      success on the date log. The dark blue is knock. Load .65 at 3500 rpm, and the big one was at a load of .76 at 4000 rpm.
      There we have it! The guessing is gone. I see a histogram being made for this coming shortly. Did I mention I love histograms? Again, thanks to 4pointslow.

      upload_2017-6-10_16-26-17.png
       
    17. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

      Joined:
      February 18, 2009
      Messages:
      4,633
      Likes Received:
      95
      Trophy Points:
      68
      City, State:
      Winnipeg, Manitoba
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      00 Limited V8
      Check out my histogram for knock.
      Anything in green is nothing to worry about.
      Hows this for awesome?

      upload_2017-6-10_16-40-23.png
       
    18. 4pointslow

      4pointslow Explorer Torture Tester Elite Explorer

      Joined:
      April 3, 2008
      Messages:
      2,433
      Likes Received:
      142
      Trophy Points:
      83
      City, State:
      Gloucester City, NJ
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      98 2Dr,98 & 04 4dr xlt
      That is awesome!
      I never even thought of making one for knock/timing
      Great job, I may steal this idea. lol.
      How did you decide on specs for knock activity?
       
    19. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

      Joined:
      February 18, 2009
      Messages:
      4,633
      Likes Received:
      95
      Trophy Points:
      68
      City, State:
      Winnipeg, Manitoba
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      00 Limited V8
      Before I dump too much timing. at .75 load I am commanding a/f of 12.34. I saw an a/f of 13.2 in the log at this load level. Too lean.
      I'll get that maf transfer function closer in line to where it should be. Fattening up the fuel will probably help the detonation issue.

      If getting the a/f down to what I'm commanding doesn't drop the detonation, I might command an even richer a/f in the fuel table.
       
    20. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

      Joined:
      February 18, 2009
      Messages:
      4,633
      Likes Received:
      95
      Trophy Points:
      68
      City, State:
      Winnipeg, Manitoba
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      00 Limited V8
      I didn't use any spec's, just the raw voltage. It might not be a bad idea to multiply the voltage by something as a formula in the livelink analog 1 spot, but this seems to work great.

      I think the vampiure unit has a max of 1 volt output, so seeing the numbers in raw format is ok.
       
    21. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

      Joined:
      February 18, 2009
      Messages:
      4,633
      Likes Received:
      95
      Trophy Points:
      68
      City, State:
      Winnipeg, Manitoba
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      00 Limited V8
      Ok, guys, interesting tuning thing found with the vampire unit and knocking. Keep in mind that the knock sensor brain does not even activate till it see's 5psi vacuum

      Here's my borderline knock table. Decipha stated that MBT for aluminum heads at low load cruise was 45. I know there is lots ov other variables, but that is where I kind of adjusted my spark around.
      upload_2017-6-15_22-49-3.png

      Son, here is my histogram showing knock. I had to step on the gas at just the right moments, but have a look:
      upload_2017-6-15_22-53-18.png
      Red is bad. lol Red is knock, or false knock?

      So, this tells me that you can actually touch on low load areas in transition to high load right from the base. How could I have a low load condition under low vacuum? Well here it is, you clearly can.
      With the vacuum port off the Vampire brain, it it always sensing, and this knock does not happen under cruising conditions. Only quick transitions to wot while the vehicle is already moving.

      .So, I reduced timing in the offensive area.
      upload_2017-6-15_23-2-11.png

      I didn't log after this, but I did end up going for a drive. I can tell you for certain that this helped quite a bit. The Vampire unit is still retarding timing under certain conditions, but far less. I may very well end it at the factory timing (Numbers are black) in this area when I am done.

      I don't want to make any further changes to spark till I actually log what rpm/load the knock is coming from. No point in guessing at this point.

      Very interesting, and worthy of pointing this out. Once I'm thru this process, I know there will be absolutely no reason to visit a dyno to find more power.
       
    22. vroomzoomboom

      vroomzoomboom Elite Canuck STOCK SUCKS! Elite Explorer

      Joined:
      January 22, 2007
      Messages:
      8,672
      Likes Received:
      188
      Trophy Points:
      83
      City, State:
      selkirk, manitoba
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      98 supercharged 347 sport
      i may have to beg and throw some money at you to borrow that thing when your done tuning. then again, when is tuning ever done, right?
       
    23. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

      Joined:
      February 18, 2009
      Messages:
      4,633
      Likes Received:
      95
      Trophy Points:
      68
      City, State:
      Winnipeg, Manitoba
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      00 Limited V8
      We just need to see if we can get a knock sensor with connector, knock sensor adapter, and the connector that plugs in to the vampire unit. Then, wiring, and swapping the brain over isn't difficult.
      Moving knock sensor and wiring back and fourth is a big deal. Its not easy to get at that stuff.
       
    24. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

      Joined:
      February 18, 2009
      Messages:
      4,633
      Likes Received:
      95
      Trophy Points:
      68
      City, State:
      Winnipeg, Manitoba
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      00 Limited V8
      @4pointslow
      I have a bit of an issue. Its small, but interesting.
      Tuning via ltft histogram, I would end up with a datapoint on my MAF thats lower than the one previous to it.
      The LTFT is perfect in Neutral (datapoint 124), but in drive I'm looking at multiplying datapoint 151 by .96.
      This will make datapoint 151 lower than datapoint 124 (Both are at 623 currently). Doesn't this create other issues? Am I ok to do it in this case? Leave it alone and let adaptive learning do its thing?

      upload_2017-7-5_8-51-40.png

      upload_2017-7-5_8-53-1.png
       
    25. 4pointslow

      4pointslow Explorer Torture Tester Elite Explorer

      Joined:
      April 3, 2008
      Messages:
      2,433
      Likes Received:
      142
      Trophy Points:
      83
      City, State:
      Gloucester City, NJ
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      98 2Dr,98 & 04 4dr xlt
      Keep in mind that there are glitches sometimes in the datalogs. They can come from voltage spikes during the recording.
      I have looked at them in excel as I assume you have too.
      If there seems to be erroneous data, just leave it alone.

      If there are no glitches I would tune it off of the readings in drive. We spend more time in drive at idle than neutral in idle under regular usage.
      With that said I will add more.
      I like my mixture to be a tad on the rich side, so I would prefer it to say I need a .96 adjustment (and not do it), than a 1.04.
      So I tune to try to make the PCM have to take a little fuel away, again I say a little.
      Why? a slightly richer mixture at Idle will run slightly smoother.
      A slightly richer mixture at WOT burns cooler in the combustion chamber, further away from detonation.
      Again I say slightly richer because an extremely richer condition leaves fuel behind that can end up in the crankcase through normal blow-by gases from normal ring end gaps.

      With that all said the target is to be within 3% of desired A/F.
      So I would try to adjust it by 1% or .99 multiplier, but 4% is really only 1% away from target of within 3%. lol.
      You can not have 151 data point lower than 124 data point, it will cause problems or even cut fuel.

      Your options,
      Leave it alone
      try to lower both by the same amount
      try to lower the one below the one that says it needs to be adjusted and see if that alone fixes the one above.
      There may be more I am not thinking about.lol.

      Hope I didn't make it more confusing.
       
    26. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

      Joined:
      February 18, 2009
      Messages:
      4,633
      Likes Received:
      95
      Trophy Points:
      68
      City, State:
      Winnipeg, Manitoba
      Year, Model & Trim Level:
      00 Limited V8
      lol.
      Clear as mud.

      I think I'll leave it alone for a while. I want the ltft's down low to be at 1.

      This truck has a starting issue. It just does not like to start without touching the gas.
      Of course I play with different crank fuel pulse widths and air charge during crank. I finally think I have it right, and after a few days it wont start without touching the gas. Very odd. I'm wondering if adaptive learning is retaining its memory thru ltft's and throwing off the start mixture?

      It just seems to be a characteristic of this motor. It's always behaved like that. I'd sure like to figure it out though.
       

    Share This Page







    We Support Our Troops!