Turbo on 2000 Limited 5.0

Well guys, I don't even have it yet and I'm looking at going turbo.

I think I'll be going STS style with the turbo underneath the the body. I'm hoping I can find room somewhere closer to the front to mount it. If not, I may just go classic style and cut the muffler out and install the turbo in its place.

Tim was kind enough to point me at a turbo for sale locally. I'm checking it out now. I sent the specs to James Henson to see what his thoughts are.

Here's the specs:
t4 F1-68 turbine .68 a/r housing 3" exhaust outlet with a 72mm compressor blade 4inch inlet, 2.5 inch outlet, journal bearing. Also, see compressor map attached. I have a vague understanding, and that concerns me.

Now, the next issue is oil routing.
Oil in to the turbo would be handled from a T off the oil pressure sending unit on the block. Return oil would need a scavenge pump to the top of the oil pan, or in the timing chain cover. The scavenge pump adds quite a bit of cost to the setup. I think saving a few bucks in this area would spell disaster. So, this seems to be the best pump out there:
http://turbowerx.com/Scavenge_Pumps/Exa-Pump/Exa-Pump.html
Stainless steel oil lines will have to be used. As I read about under cab mounted turbo's oil issues seem to be a huge issue. This is going to require careful thought and routing.

My real issue is routing the air filter and compressed air up to the engine bay.
The frame rails will be the the way. I saw one guy notched out his frame for the plumbing and re-enforced the frame by welding metal around the plumbing line (3 inch or 4 inch hole). I'm concerned about running the two pipes and think this will be the biggest challenge. I really don't want that air filter under the truck.
See what this guy did on his ranger?


As for Maf? Pro-M all the way, in a blow thru design.

Fuel pump, injectors, sct go without saying. I'll be having James put together a care package for me along with the Pro-M.
Aeromotive Stealth 340 pump
Bosch uscar (EV6) 60lb injectors part # 108191

I'll recycle my boost gauge and wide band o2 from my supercharged 4.0 ohv.

I'll be using stainless steel for everything under the truck as rust always seems to be an issue.

Also. intercooling. I learned from my last project that cool intake air is incredibly important. People say on under cabin turbo's you don't really need it as the compressed air cools on the way up. Not good enough for me. Im going to go air/water so I have flexibility as to where I mount the intercooler. This could change, but intercooling of some form is a must.

My eye's are watering at what this is going to cost.

I see 02Limited turbo'd his, but he must have had quite a few issues and fell off the forum.

Not much info on guys completing something like this to be found. All input appreciated.

This will be a long process.

 

[Dono]

I was at 7lbs boost.
When we were playing a bit on the way there, I heard a bit of detonation, so before we ran at the track, I dropped the boost slightly on the boost controller.

No spinning off the line, just a shifty reaction time. First time making a pass in over 25 years.

The hose that blew off was a boost hose just before the intercooler. This happened when I let off the gas. Kinda makes me wonder if my blow off valve is working. This is the least of my concerns though.

I'll strip the motor to the short block and take the short block and heads in.
I'm concerned about bent valves, bent rods, and bearings. Water in a cylinder with a piston going up (and valves closed) at high speed can't be good.

 

[shucker1]

Dono,

Sorry to hear about the bad news.

Since the heads are back off and are going to the shop now might be a good time to have them set up for wire ring head gaskets if you don't have them already.

Chris

 

[Dono]

I thought about that, but this was my fault. Completely.
Detonation kills motors, no matter what.

The head gaskets blowing might be the fuse that saved the rest of the motor.

 

[shucker1]

Good point.

 

[4pointslow]

Detonation

Time for water methanol in this truck.
The intercooler if working at its best will cool things down some, but probably not enough with the 91 octane gas you guys have.

After messing around with intercoolers and water methanol, I have to say W/M works way better. However, both might be the right combo to get the most out of your truck.

Has anyone played with octane booster in Canada? I wonder if it would work consistently to increase the octane to 93.

 

[Dono]

It was a bit dis-heartening to take the passenger header off and have coolant pour all over my leg.

Interestingly enough, to my eye everything looks pretty good.

I'm going to leave the timing cover and water pump on when I take the motor to the machine shop.
The motors apart, so I'll still run it in with the heads for the machinist to look at. I don't think it will take him long to assess.

Listening to how well w/m is working, I might just go that route.

 

[2000StreetRod]

water/meth & compression?

Since a solution of water/meth is incompressible is there a possibility that too much would blow a head gasket? If so, what prevents too much from being ingested by the engine?

It's a real shame what happened to your engine. One big difference between dyno testing and track testing is wind resistance. I'm thankful neither of you were hurt!

 

[Dono]

When you think about it, your right. No one got hurt, that's what it's all about.

I really think my motor is ok. A bit of cash to have it looked at, some gaskets and sweat equity and I'm back in business.

I'll be backing off max boost to about 5 lbs. As soon as I hear a hint of detonation any time l'll be off the gas. Period.

 

[4pointslow]

347

What is your compression ratio again?
With those ARP head studs I would think you would not have problems with head gaskets, but that thing does look burnt. What is the recommended torque on the nuts?
Is there a better grade Felpro head gasket for the 5.0L?
Felpro is the best but sometimes they have a heavier duty gasket.
I guess with detonation even a high quality gasket could blow.

 

[Dono]

Yea, I'm 9.6 to one.
I have been reading, and the iron heads apparently don't need much spark advance at all.
They still make the power, but retain the heat and don't need the advance.

I have no idea. All I know is at 14 degrees advance, 9.6:1 compression, 91 octane, 7 lbs boost, I detonate. Cam maybe? Heads? Its not a lot of advance.

The cam was matched to the combo with boost in mind. I wouldn't think the cam would be the issue.

 

[vroomzoomboom]

another thing i was going to mention, and want to say now so i dont forget is maybe pull your oil line off the turbo and blow it out if it hasnt drained already just in case there is any small amount of coolant in it

 

[ford99_1979]

Don, sorry to hear of the issues you and Tim have had. Just laying in bed watching engine power on powerblock. It's a stage 3 build of a 347 turbo, starting with a dart block. May be of interest. Original air date Sept 20th.

 

[4pointslow]

All I know is at 14 degrees advance, 9.6:1 compression, 91 octane, 7 lbs boost, I detonate.

As a comparison, I am running about 16 degrees of advance, 9.7:1 compression, 93 octane, 16lbs of boost.

That is with an intercooler,93 octane instead of 91, and water methanol injection. Before the water methanol my timing advance was so low I was probably in danger of burning the exhaust valves.

 

[2000StreetRod]

please explain

. . . Before the water methanol my timing advance was so low I was probably in danger of burning the exhaust valves.

I'm only running about 12 degrees advance at WOT until I get my AFRs adjusted. Does that mean I'm in danger of burning my exhaust valves?

 

[4pointslow]

timing

I'm only running about 12 degrees advance at WOT until I get my AFRs adjusted. Does that mean I'm in danger of burning my exhaust valves?

Maybe, maybe not. I don't know where the limits of your engine are. I am pushing mine I am sure.
The burn that usually happens in the cylinder, gets cooled when the heat gets absorbed into the coolant surrounding the cylinder. If the timing is retarded some of that heat is on its way out the cylinder across the exhaust valve instead of being absorbed into the coolant.
If it happens(burnt valves) it would usually be under WOT conditions.
I guess the question is, how much heat can the exhaust valves take and how much are we making. There is an inferred exhaust valve temperature PID in LiveLink, I forget what it is named.

 

[Dono]

Motor is back from the machine shop.
No damage. Amazing.

I worked the spark plug boss's on the heads tonight, removing sharp edges in the combustion chambers. Then I used a cartridge roll and gave most of the combustion chamber surface a light sand. Hopefully this helps with detonation. I know it can't hurt.

Tomorrow afternoon I'll get the motor together. Hopefully Tim can come over tomorrow night for a few minutes for his weekly install or remove of my block (At least that's what it feels like).
It is always a bit of a fight seating, or pulling the block so I just don't feel comfortable with this part by myself. Hopefully he won't even have to get dirty.

I checked in to the J&S safeguard unit. Suddenly it doesn't seem so expensive to me.
Apparently a GM knock sensor will work just fine in the factory knock sensor location in the block just behind the intake manifold. I just hope I can get to that location with the motor installed. The sensor is ordered off ebay, but the knock controller hasn't been ordered yet. A bit of a cash flow situation, it will have to wait a little bit.

I did take the time with my wiring harness and replaced the injector connectors that were dried out and the locks broken. I also replaced the cam position sensor connector.

James is still scratching his head as to why I would be having knocking issues with my combination. He says there is no way I should be experiencing it at 14 degree's timing. I'm hoping that either smoothing the combustion chambers, or replacing those bad injector connectors take care of this issue.

 

[4pointslow]

Engine

Glad to hear the engine is OK!
Good luck on the install.

Were you still getting the cam sensor code after cleaning the PCM connector?

 

[Dono]

Were you still getting the cam sensor code after cleaning the PCM connector?

Yes, it seems like it takes 3 days of driving after clearing the code or changing the tune it comes back. I'm not sure why though, as I can 'see' ac signal at pin 85 with the motor running. It doesn't make sense to me yet. I have a new cam position sensor I'm going to install also, but truthfully I'm not hopeful that this is going to fix the issue.

 

[4pointslow]

P0340

P0340 is lost cam sensor signal.
Your ignition system doesn't need the cam sensor because you have coil packs.
The spark happens in each cylinder on the compression and exhaust stroke by default, so the ignition system doesn't care about the cam sensor.

Now the fuel injectors, they need the cam sensor since they are sequential fuel injection. If the fuel injectors are not timed correctly lean or rich conditions may occur possibly resulting in other problems like engine damage from detonation.

If one injector is firing but at the wrong intake valve that is not open, the fuel can puddle which means it is not getting into the cylinder that was supposed to get it and the fuel starved cylinder runs lean.

If you don't find anything else wrong, make sure your ignition wires are far from the cam sensor wires.

 

[Dono]

Thanks,
I keep looking for more info on this, but the cps is a bit of a mystery.

It would be a beautiful thing is there was a pid for it to see whats going on, but
It seems to take 8-10 engine warm ups from cold before the code comes up.

I agree, this could very well be my detonation issue.