Vehicle surging with shudder/maybe torque converter clutch?

[Mountain_Dewd]

Any chance your shuddering is your VCT solenoid? This guy has a ton of Ford repair videos and claims this is one of the most common problems with 3V 4.6 and 5.3 engines. Even has a simple check to see if its the problem.

 

[PotatoExplorer]

Any chance your shuddering is your VCT solenoid? This guy has a ton of Ford repair videos and claims this is one of the most common problems with 3V 4.6 and 5.3 engines. Even has a simple check to see if its the problem.

Thanks for the suggestion Mountian_Dewd. I'm not sure, but could be possible? I don't know if this is any indication to anything, but when looking around the VCT solenoid openings on the outside of the valve covers, it appears there was, at one point, oil dripping down the outside part of the valve covers, on both banks, around these spots.

For testing, he suggests that you unplug the wiring and driving the vehicle for a short distance. But this is for the instance where the solenoid isn't disengaging (reengaging?) at idle. I'm kind of wondering if having this unplugged and driving around 40ish MPH if this will cause any serious issues?

More on the current status update -
Unfortunately nothing has really changed. If anything, I've noticed the RPM surge happening lower in speed (now seems to happen anywhere from 25-45MPH and really seems to be limited to 4th gear). My next step is the PCM reset, although I'm very doubtful this will accomplish anything...

 

[Ken TN]

Just to throw my 2 cents into this thread. I have a 2006 Mountaineer that had the shudder, starts out as a little bump in the trans then becomes more noticeable with shudder and a little jerk. Stops when OD button is pushed and the trans drops a couple of gears. The OD puts a large load on the engine as it lugs it down to low to be producing much power.
Hitting the OD button gets the rpm up and into a higher HP spot in the RPM range where the misfires are not noticeable.

Since we were traveling I did go by the Ford store and have the tech there hook up the Ford Diagnostic tool just to check the trans operation and it was fine, no issues found.

I did get a P0300 misfire code with my scanner. I was sure glad I threw that sucker in for the trip, part of being a Boy scout, always prepared. I did also get a P0306 code which means Cyl 6 had a hard misfire.
For me to get the codes I had to drive it hard and lug it down pretty hard on some long steep uphills. I found the speed and RPM right where it did it worst and held it there. These things do not set the Check engine light easily!
I replaced all the plugs and the one coil on #6 and it was fine. We were out of town and the local part store only had 1 coil at $65!
I wanted to replace all the coils but at that price said oh hell no! It has been running smooth for over a year and no more shudder!

The Mercury also had a muffler welded in where the front resonator was located. It rusted out and blew the seam open on the same trip. I had the little muffler shop in town cut it out and put a pipe in that section. Now with just the muffler and no resonator it sounds GREAT!

Now a year latter and I just had my S10 t-boned and totaled out...Time for a new car.
I enjoyed driving the Mercury V8 so I just bought a 06 Explorer 4.6 V8 XLT, one owner super clean 120,000 miles.

Well what do you know it has the "shudder", could be the original owners reason for trading it in...
Upon pulling the plugs and coils I found 2 new plus under 2 new coils...A partial fix at some point!
I installed new MotorCraft Plugs and MSD Street Fire Coils from Amazon, great price on all 8 coils!
I paid $162 for the set of 8 coils on Amazon! Beats the hell out of $65 I paid for the one coil on the Mercury.

Runs great no shudder or bumping at 40-60 going uphill where the spark miss is most noticeable.

Since I have done plugs on both of my 4.6 and did the coils on the Explorer I'm going to change all the coils on the Mercury over to the Street Fires. I'll also be deleting the resonator and putting a pipe in its place on the Explorer to get the same sound I have in the Mercury.

Just my 2 cents,
Ken
ASE Master Tech since 1982

 

[PotatoExplorer]

Ken TN, thanks for the input.

I've had some time to kind of stew this over and I think the next logical move is to just go ahead and replace the rest of the COPs. This way it completely eliminates them from the equation. I wanted to avoid it due to the price... especially since I stupidly spent money on a new throttle body. I guess you live and learn...

With over 120k miles on this machine and no record if these have ever been changed, it's not like this will be money wasted. But being on the verge of completely hating this vehicle, it's just getting a bit frustrating...

I guess I need to take a $200.00 plunge!!!

 

[PotatoExplorer]

So I took the $200 plunge of getting 6 more COPs. I inspected the old ones as I was going through and swapping them. I noticed that the springs in the old ones were longer than the boots. Not sure if that's supposed to be like that or if the springs just stretched over time?


These 6 Motorcraft COPs were the same model number as the other 2 I ordered from Amazon, but they came in Motorcraft branded plastic bags instead of the branded cardboard boxes. The top resin part of the COPs, where the parts number get stamped, appeared to also be slightly off-color compared to the previous 2.

Anyways, swapped them out with the old ones using dielectric grease on the spring ends and around the boot collar. I inspected the connectors and wires again - all appeared visually good. Took her on a test drive anddddddddddddd - problem is still there. I know I sounds completely crazy, but yet again, towards the end of the test drive, the problem seemed harder and harder to reproduce. I even stopped, turned the car off, filled with gas and test drove it some more... with the problem seeming to almost be present and almost not be present...
Again, I think I need another day or two behind the wheel to know for sure. Ugh.

Speaking of gas, this is my 2nd Sunoco tank and my mileage has gone down to around 11mpg, wtf????????

Another thing, I took some pictures of my VCT solenoid hole on the valve cover. This is what it looks like on the driver side bank. Passenger side bank looks fine... Not sure if I should be concerned? It looks as if it's old, but doesn't look good. I'm not sure if oil is supposed to be blowing up past the solenoid in the first place.

 

[PotatoExplorer]

Here's another picture of the VCT Solenoid hole opening on the drives side valve cover...



And it appears that my Explorer was made in September of 2007, just FYI.

 

[Ken TN]

Sorry to hear that you still have a little miss.
I've been using Valero regular fuel and my mileage was up to a new high of 19.2 today for my mixed city and highway driving. I hope freeing up the exhaust this week will get me over the 20 MPG mark I'm shooting for.

 

[PotatoExplorer]

Ken TN, when you replaced the plugs/COPs, did it instantly fix the RPM surge issue or did you have to give the PCM some time to relearn?

I just drove about 20 some miles last night and it appeared to still get down into the bog down zone (seems like right at the bottom of the gear around 1,250rpm) and tried like hell to do the RPM surge but would only do it a couple of cycles before subsiding.

I'm going to take a wild guess, but driving it over 3k miles like this maybe screwed up the PCM and it needs time to reset/relearn properly. If the weathers nice after work today, I may even FINALLY do that reset procedure...

 

[Ken TN]

My fix was immediate on first start and test drive. I wonder if you have a lot of carbon build up. I ran Seafoam in two tanks then a tank with Lucus to clean the combustion chambers and carbon out before the plug change. All my plugs cam out carbon free and clean. 6 that were old had a very large gap.

Today I had the front resonator removed and replaced with a pipe. Improves the sound, not like a Flowmaster but it has a slight rumble to the single exhaust. Hope freeing it up will bump the mileage up a little more. I'm going to hook up my OBD2 tester and watch the fuel trims, short and long term.

Hope the computer keeps improving on yours, might be time to take the battery off and let it reset back to full base map programming. If yours had numerous plugs/coils fouling then I could see how the system may have adjusted way off the basemap.

 

[PotatoExplorer]

My fix was immediate on first start and test drive. I wonder if you have a lot of carbon build up. I ran Seafoam in two tanks then a tank with Lucus to clean the combustion chambers and carbon out before the plug change. All my plugs cam out carbon free and clean. 6 that were old had a very large gap.

Today I had the front resonator removed and replaced with a pipe. Improves the sound, not like a Flowmaster but it has a slight rumble to the single exhaust. Hope freeing it up will bump the mileage up a little more. I'm going to hook up my OBD2 tester and watch the fuel trims, short and long term.

Hope the computer keeps improving on yours, might be time to take the battery off and let it reset back to full base map programming. If yours had numerous plugs/coils fouling then I could see how the system may have adjusted way off the basemap.

I had thought about putting some Seafoam in the tank to try and clean up the carbon. I'm thinking the previous owners never really took care of the routine maintainence in this thing, as you can see from the fuel filter picture a few pages ago. I also was Googling it a bit ago and read some guys thread on a Jeep forum talking about how his pickup line/filter got jacked from all the crud in his tank after Seafoaming it... Kind of scared me a little. I probably should have done this before the new fuel filter.

And that's what I'm also guessing at. I think with so many messed up variables (Fuel filter, COPs, plugs, vacuum leaks, dirty throttle body/MAF) the base map on this thing is all sorts of f-ed up. I still haven't had time to do this reset yet. Nothing but rain this whole week.

 

[tripplec]

I'd go with using Shell Gasoline even higher than regular. Their Nitrogen additive is said clean pretty good and no worry about damage to sensors etc. I don't have a lot of faith in snake oil additives. I tried and had some close disasters to contend with in the past. I stay away from them now.

 

[Explorer_PL]

Sorry for hijacking here.

Ken TN,

did you change the gears in both of your trucks ?
I see one is 3.23 and the other 3.73, they all came with 3.55.

Since it is super easy to upgrade to 3.73 by just swapping pumpkins from a wrecked one, how did you get 3.23 in there ?
How does the 4.6 feel with 3.73 ?

 

[PotatoExplorer]

What wrecked vehicle do you grab the pumpkin from? A 3rd gen Explorer/Ranger?

Horray for beautiful weather today! I was finally able to do the PCM reset, as described in that linked video from a few pages ago. Wow, what a difference! It cleared up the RPM surge for the most part, but was unfortunately still there... Ugh!!!!

40 some miles of driving after the PCM reset, the RPM surge problem seems to now be limited to right after the vehicle shifts into 3rd. Once it shifts into 3rd and I'm steadily accelerating, this brings the vehicle up a few hundred RPMS from 1,000-1,250RPMs and for some reason the transmission shifts into 4th without climbing upwards of 2,000+ RPMs. It will surge (not as severe, but still noticible in sound and feel) but seems to have a very narrow window as compared to before....

I'm wondering, could it be possible that the PCM needs an updated flash?? On the vehicle check prior to purchase I do remember seeing it being flashed once before...

I'm trying to think of my next step(s)... I'm thinking Seafoam in the gas tank, and then maybe unplugging the driverside bank VCT solenoid and giving it a test drive. The story continues!

 

[Explorer_PL]

Did I say it in this "saga" or somewhere else: pay for an hour of certified Ford tech time and you may find it out much quicker without all that guess work.

 

[PotatoExplorer]

Did I say it in this "saga" or somewhere else: pay for an hour of certified Ford tech time and you may find it out much quicker without all that guess work.

Haha, yes! I don't remember which thread, but I remember asking you about diagnostic costs in NY. Seemed reasonably priced if I remember correctly. I just wanted to try to eliminate the routine maintenance items. Now I think I'm getting into the finer things!

The only other wear items I should replace (due to the unknown) is front/rear diff fluid and transfer case fluid (and probably an oil/filter change in another 2k miles - who knows if the correct weight fluid was even used?). I do wonder if dirty transfer case fluid could be another cog in this wheel of misery...

 

[Explorer_PL]

I do not believe the diff fluids would create such conditions. Did I suggested here that the valve body might be acting up ? There are 7 solenoids there and they get stuck sometimes messing up the shift points. While overall the 6R is a good transmission, the valve body issues are not uncommon.

 

[PotatoExplorer]

I do not believe the diff fluids would create such conditions. Did I suggested here that the valve body might be acting up ? There are 7 solenoids there and they get stuck sometimes messing up the shift points. While overall the 6R is a good transmission, the valve body issues are not uncommon.

Hmmm, not sure if here, but I think I did see you post that on another thread with a similar (if not exact) issue. I was doing a few more hours of searching the interwebs for a solution and stumbled upon a thread or two where you touch base on the valve body. In my searches I did find a YouTube video of the exact problem -

It's funny how there's quite a few threads about this problem but the threads just die. Only 1 thread that I stumbled upon had a solution and it was solved by replacing the torque converter. Which is also funny, because I remember finding a thread or two where the OP would replace the torque converter only to have the problem come back in a few years.

I believe the next logical move would be a professional diagnosis. Unfortunately doing all this "routine maintenance" and getting my Ranger up to inspection standards (along with having my son born and the wife being out of work), my funds are depleted. I'm going to at some point try doing the VCT solenoid test just for ***** and giggles. I still need to get this thing inspected next month!!

More wonderful news, yesterday was the first real heavy full day of rain since I owned the vehicle. After driving to and from work, I was curious to see if there was any water leaking into the engine bay from the cowl. Yep. Water was pooled up around the base/collar of the COP on 8. What the F... when it rains it pours I guess.

 

[PotatoExplorer]

Oh yeah, another question for you guys. When you take the car out of overdrive, should it eventually shift gears? Not sure if it's related to the RPM surge, but when I deactivate O/D, the RPMs immediately climb up (which I believe is normal). Then I give it more gas to get it to shift, but never does. I had it close to 4k RPMs with no shifting and I was somewhere around 60MPH. I didn't want to push it further since I was on a back road!

 

[PotatoExplorer]

Status update -

To touch base on the O/D issue, I think I was in the final gear, hence it not shifting. If I'm stopped and turn O/D off, the car shifts through normally. Is gear 6 O/D? Sorry, not really familiar with O/D, this would be my first vehicle with it.

I tested out the driverside VCT solenoid and the RPM surge/shudder was still there.

I went ahead and dumped 2/3 of a can of Seafoam into the gas tank. I think I'll let the tank get down pretty low and just dump the rest for good measure. And I don't think this is directly related to this (I think it's related to the COP change), my fuel economy is now averaging around 17mpg. I'd like to try the Seafoam into the intake or whatever, but I'm not quite sure how you get Seafoam to go from a liquid in a can, to being sprayed into the intake. I'll need to find some YouTube videos.

I decided to pull the 4x4 fuse (#23 I believe) just to give that a try. Somehow my 4x4 was still working... what the? No error on the dash or anything. I'll need to further look into this.

I siliconed the crap out of the clips to prevent water from dripping onto #8 and the rest of the engine bay. I didn't realize that there are foam type gaskets between the cowl and the metal of the car right where the clips go in. After squirting all that silicone in and around there, I realized the silicone was dissolving the foam gasket. So I either made the problem worse or better... I guess we will see. I decided to do this to all the clips just for good measure.

I'm starting to wonder if maybe either a new plug or maybe even a new COP that I installed was bad from the factory. Spring Carlisle is coming up next weekend so I'm going to try and find a OBDII to USB cable there. I downloaded FORscan (a free Ford and Mazda scanner program) for my laptop and I am hoping to be able to hook it up, test drive, and find out what's going on in there. I have no idea how to use FORscan, but I'll try to figure it out.

Another thing I'm going to try is to go buy some electrical cleaner spray, disconnect battery, pull the 3 wire harnesses from the PCM, check for corrosion, spray the crap out of the male and female end of the wire harness.

One more thought that crossed my mind, could a bad enough exhaust manifold leak cause a lack of back pressure in the exhaust for that driving range to cause RPM surge issues?

 

[Bill MacLeod]

5th & 6th are overdriven gears. Activating the od switch at speed will drop the trans down to 4th gear in Drive.(allows full use of gears 1 to 4 to accelerate or 4th to 1st on decel)
Manual 1 allows use of 1st gear only. Manual 2 allows use of 2nd gear only. Manual 3 allows use of 3rd gear only.

There is a possibility that your trans may not have the latest calibration. An hours diagnostic time at your favorite Ford dealer may be of benefit. (as PL had mentioned)
Also have them check the trans fluid level and condition.