Bad designs all around....

I'm starting to get fed up with the bad designs Ford has incorporated into this Explorer.

I spent the better part of 2 hours trying to remove the exhaust manifold bolts from the head. Why did this take so long? Ford used the SMALLEST and longest possible exhaust manifold bolts I've ever seen. These bolts rust up like crazy and you can't use a regular ratchet & needed a breaker bar. In order to make sure the bolts don't strip I had to use a 6 point socket.... but since I was limited by the rotation of the bar I had to rotate the bolt, then rotate the socket on the breaker, then go again.

Then I snapped 4 of the 12 bolts (and amazed it wasn't more). Why? Because Ford used the smallest possible bolts possible. I can't fathom who thought it was a smart idea to use M8 x 75mm bolts for an exhaust manifold - where the steel of the bolt is degraded every single time you start the engine. I'm used to smart engineering in Toyota's where they use M12 bolts no longer than an 1.5" long... in the 50+ old/high mileage Toyota's I've worked on and owned I've ever only had to replace 3 exhaust manifold studs... because they stripped out from prior owners using an impact wrench to tighten, not because of bad engineering.

To further the nuissance - one of the bolts is located behind the EGR tube... which also rusts between the nut and the pipe and upon removal the pipe caves in on itself and destroys the pipe.

Even worse? Ford wants.... per exhaust manifold bolt (again, an M8 x ~3")... $15 per bolt?!?!?!?!?!? How much for that 10" egr tube? $68....

F*** Off, Ford. The hardware store was $0.62 per bolt (and that was the more expensive store) and I also now get to spend $100+ on machine work to get these damn broken bolts out.... not to mention I had to spend ~$500 on the rockers, push rods, and lifters as is.... that EGR tube will be cut and rewelded for just a couple dollars... no way in hell I'm giving Ford the satisfaction of price gouging me.

All of this because the lifters needed replacing... which Ford designed the engine so that the heads must be removed to replace.... all stemming from bad design.

I'm working on this at a friends place who has a huge/wide/lifted 97 explorer... he had big plans to boost and do additional work... after seeing the nightmare that is this pile he's seriously considering selling it. He fears the day he has to do any type of work like this.


Considering the RV we just picked up has a Ford 460 in it... I'm also seriously considering selling the Explorer once fixed and geting something 1/2 way decent to work on so that I don't have 2 piles of Ford crap to deal with.....

Maybe you should stick with Toyotas. Seriously, I know where you are comjng from. I have a 96 Explorer that I will be getting rid of as soonas I can afford it. Some of the same issues you have. I am not too sure about Fords 'better idea'.

I think you 2 need to sell your explorers and don't ever talk to me. Your beloved toyota's and hondas have only caused me problems.....

...and Ford isn't all bad, I mean the guys MegaSquirting the 1st gen MR2's used the Ford EDIS system to control spark.

toyotaspeed90 said:

All of this because the lifters needed replacing... which Ford designed the engine so that the heads must be removed to replace.... all stemming from bad design...

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I have a weak lifter that will remain as such exactly because this design.

BTW: is Toyota OHV V8 different designed in this aspect?

BTW, wanna talk about a bad design. Making a stick shift without a tach. Asian cars seem to love to this, go ahead and try to find a american car like that.

Consider yourself lucky you don't have a 91-94. A 6mm 12 point socket to remove the spindle, really?

I feel your pain but owning a Saab I've become numb to stupid designs.

True- if you want to swear, buy a Saab. I can verify that... My neighbor used to have one, I learned to hide from him when he was in the driveway when he was trying to work on it.

well, i am going to throw a different curve in here. if your want to bash explorers, or ford and praise toyota's, here's one for you. throw a little salt at them, and watch them disintegrate in front of your eyes. sure, explorers and fords, or everything else for that matter rusts, but wow. that is one major reason i do not like imports is because the rot away fast. then try and repair that. they use high tensile strength steel, which is as thick as tinfoil. try welding on that, then try welding on a explorer. it will make you forget all about a bolt fast.

^thats funny, there's another thread on here complaining about how much faster fords rust

^Thatd be me.. But I don't own japanese cars.. 10000000000x's more **** to break in one of those than an american car.

I live in new england and I've never snapped an exhaust manifest bolt... its called pb blaster... it works..

Joe Dirt said:

True- if you want to swear, buy a Saab. I can verify that... My neighbor used to have one, I learned to hide from him when he was in the driveway when he was trying to work on it.

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It's honestly not all that bad, it's my first car so the learning curve has been a bit stretched. The worst part is parts, the closest dealer is an hour away. The closest reliable dealer is two hours (~100 miles).

You guys know, dont you, every vehicle manufacturer has its own quirks, downfalls, shortcomings, just as every manufacturerhas its strong points. From my own experiences, with vehicles I have owned, in the 60's General Motors had the best parts interchangability, Fords sucked. In the 70's Ford pickups had better cabs. Every mid 70's Chevy or GMC I owned had door hinges breaking out of the doors. In the 80's Fords fuel injection systems were a royal PIA. My 86 F150, 302 batchfire system would not run the same two days in a row. However my 86 Bronco, with the exact same FI system, got an honest 20 MPG,@55 MPH, 17MPG@65MPH.
My 96 Explorer is not reliable, there is always something in the last 3,000 miles not working. It drives good, gets good fuel mileage, and is comfortable. But I never know when the A/C is going to not work, the Control Track doesn't work,if it is going to start or not, or whats going to happen next. It was a good truck for what it was intended when I bought it just over a year and a half ago with something like 141,000 on it, now 154,000.
The whole point is, they all got their problems. If you are young enough to work on them, if you like them, if you are happy with them, then by all means go for what you want. But, let others do what they want. Best trucks I ever owned were GMC's. Just MY OPINION.

Well that makes the second post I've ready today by deweyville65 that I wanted just click "quote" and say Yep, thats right..

Dad was a Ford dealer for 5 years before he became an independent Used Car Dealer. Grandpa worked at the Ford Plant in KC till he retired. So naturally we're a Ford family. That being said...

During the 30 years that Dad was a dealer, we had all brands of car, from all over the world. (Even had one Bricklin) I remember dad buying a ton of late 70's Malibu Classics and not so many Gran Torinos, even though he preferred Fords.. why? because they were great cars and they sold like crazy. He flat out refused to buy 454 Chevy Trucks.. said they had bad lifter noise and didn't sell. (Always regretted his decision on that one. hehe) But did sell a LOT of 70's Ford pickups (F-150's and 250's. He said he couldn't think of anything that would fit in a F-350 bed that would require that much chassis LOL. this was before everyone was towing anything and everything). He avoided European cars but I think that was mainly because he was unfamiliar with them.

The point is that during that time we found that ALL manufacturers build great cars, and ALL of them build Lemons. American car quality sank to an all time low in the 70's and due to that we have a lot of young folks now who think that all Japanese cars are "da bomb" and all American cars suck. Wake up people, we are starting the second decade of a new century. American Car quality is back where it belongs but the same rule still applies. ALL companies can build great cars and ALL companies can build Lemons.

getting hardware from the dealer is always a ripoff no matter the dealer. yup, the explorer motors are a little complicated to work on. but so are some of the newer honda and toyota motors. i must say in all fairness, the easiest motors to work on by far are the older honda, toyota and pretty most jeeps. just my opinion from my intermediate experience as a home mechanic, but then a again i never worked on a car that didnt involve me cursing at it at one point or another.

Toyota V6

If you have to change the spark plugs on a Toyota front wheel drive V6 you will make similar comments regarding poor serviceability. In order to replace the three rear plugs the intake manifold (among other items) must be removed.

my fav is the starter under an intake manifold, coolant, gaskets, 120 dollar starter turns into 500 in parts and 6 hrs later.

Joe Dirt said:

...and Ford isn't all bad, I mean the guys MegaSquirting the 1st gen MR2's used the Ford EDIS system to control spark.

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....caught.... I was one of the first AW11 guys to use MS/EDIS.....

SoNic67 said:

I have a weak lifter that will remain as such exactly because this design.

BTW: is Toyota OHV V8 different designed in this aspect?

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I'd have to search to see if there were any toyota v8 "OHV" engines.... if so, who knows it would be in something extremely rare anyways (like a 2000gt or something) where 0% of it's owners will be doing the work.

vroomzoomboom said:

well, i am going to throw a different curve in here. if your want to bash explorers, or ford and praise toyota's, here's one for you. throw a little salt at them, and watch them disintegrate in front of your eyes. sure, explorers and fords, or everything else for that matter rusts, but wow. that is one major reason i do not like imports is because the rot away fast. then try and repair that. they use high tensile strength steel, which is as thick as tinfoil. try welding on that, then try welding on a explorer. it will make you forget all about a bolt fast.

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very few cars survive the rust belt all that well... regardless of maker. How well a car survives that is more dependant upon how the owners have dealt with it and how often they've tried to seal it.

our old 86 F150 had 96k miles and almost no fenders (at any corner) left... and it wasn't in the salt belt, ever....

2000StreetRod said:

If you have to change the spark plugs on a Toyota front wheel drive V6 you will make similar comments regarding poor serviceability. In order to replace the three rear plugs the intake manifold (among other items) must be removed.

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this is more to do with the market demanding high power, low fuel sipping engines in small, light chasis to get better fuel economy.... when you're extremely limited in space something's gotta give. Can't say I enjoy those... but in terms of routine maintenance they still aren't as bad as a dizzy cap on a 95 camaro



I can go off on a lot more in regards to designs this vehicle has..... but my break isn't that long. I just can't fathom what the hell Ford was thinking, at all, when using these ridiculous bolts for the exhaust manifold.

Oh... and I did use PB blaster... it sat on the bolts over a weekend, sprayed again as I removed the manifolds, sat another day, and then I worked on pulling the bolts.

Heads have been at the machine shop and I'm expecting these 4 to take them a good hour and a half (or longer) to get out....

and to add....

the chevy-based 4.3 in my boat I was able to pull all lifters out completely (and check them) without touching the heads. Since the 4.3 is basically a 350 with the back 2 lopped off.. this is also the case on the 350/5.7...

I also believe that a friend of mine who has had a couple 5.0 mustangs has said the lifters come out with the head intact (he gave me a funny look when I told him lifters had to come out of the explorer)... which then begs the question --- why didn't ford just save money and follow Chevy's suit? Just take the 5.8 and lop the back 2 off making a 4.4? This would have been very Ford-fashion as well making their engines just slightly bigger than Chevy (302 vs 305, 350 vs 351.... 454 vs 460....)

toyotaspeed90 said:

.....Toyota's I've worked on .....

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Wait, what? I was under the impression that Toyotas never needed any work performed on them- EVER! They are all perfect when they leave the factory. Engines filled with unicorn blood, brakes that never squeak, tires that never wear out, shocks that never go bad.......

At least that's the impression I've been given by Toyota fan boys.

Go buy a 4Runner. Those commonly sell for thousands more than they are worth.