supercharged 5.0 true fire 98 explorer sport

vroomzoomboom · August 1, 2015

The fuel filter is serviceable so you can change the elements in it. when I called summit to find all of my part numbers I asked for a filter that had connections on both ends rather than the one Andy used which connects from the front and the side . It will filter to 10 microns as well . For how long it lasts I also asked the guy at Summit about that his answer was a very honest one it all depends on how crappy the gas is in your area, which is the truth

CDW6212R · August 1, 2015

Thanks, every time we change a fuel filter you wonder how it got so dirty. I change mine it seems like about every 2-3 years(under 15k), and that isn't really enough. An easier to change filter would be nice. I hope that one is the hot ticket.

vroomzoomboom · August 2, 2015

got the wiring done today. wasnt too bad. took a few hours doing it at a relaxed pace.

block to body wire

block to battery ground

mega fuse on the power distribution box to positive battery

and alt to mega fuse

was able to squeeze the factory bolt cover over the new wire

the new batter clamps came off my buddys 02 grand prix that we sent to the shredder last week. he had a pretty good size stereo in it, but took some of the stuff off and thats where the clamps came from. however my old clamps had about 5 other wires going to them, and i had no place to put them now because they wouldnt reach. so i bolted them on the posts where the mega fuse is (and if i am calling that the wrong name someone correct me please).

all the wire is 4 gauge. it looked bigger then the stock wire. i know what your going to say. its the plastic the wires are covered in. thats what make them look bigger. no. when i stripped them back, the new stuff looked bigger.

started it up. no problems, and more important, NO FIRES! i will take it for a drive tomorrow and pray this works.
i was also told if i havent put it down already, evil is booked for aug. 20th for the dyno tune. i hope that doesnt change. i am running out of days the track up here will be open.

oh, and one other thing i forgot to mention yesterday.

if your ever in the market for a cordless 1/2 inch impact, look no further.

i borrowed this from a buddy when i had to drop the tank down. its got balls i tell you. not only does it have the power to strip the bolts on the tank strap, but it also has the power to shear the bolt in two on your modified front tank mount causing you to spend 2 hours getting the bolt out, and for you to lay in a woodtick infested field to get a bolt from one of your parts truck. if i had the money (he said they are not cheap) i would be getting one of these. he had said there hasnt been one bolt he could get out with it, and some of them his air impact couldnt touch, and he has snap on air impacts.

ahodges · August 3, 2015

Looking dyno ready! I'll be interested to see if the larger wires help.

vroomzoomboom · August 3, 2015

ahodges said:
I'll be interested to see if the larger wires help.

so was i.....until i did a datalog and looked at it....didnt do ****. im at a loss here. i have had 2 different alts on it (both tested fine) 3 different pulleys, battery tests fine, better ground wires.....what am i missing!!!
i doubt the belt is slipping, because its new and so is the belt tensioner. went i have gone to the smaller alt pulley, i have changed one of my idler pulleys to take up any slack there might be. that and getting the belt on you almost have to force it on as well. thats how tight it is.

Turdle · August 3, 2015

I thought the idea of changing the alternator pulley ws to get more spin out of it.

A larger pulley will slow it down.

Also, just out of curiosity, I wonder if the voltage drop happens when the fuel pump kicks it's guts in. Is there a way to data log the fuel pump cycling to see if anything coincides with the voltage drop?

I think the PCM does this to prevent overvoltage to the pump, but I might be wrong. Also, it could be that the PCM requires a regulated 12v to maintain accurate data and an accurate 0v reference.

I do know there are aftermarket fuel pump drivers which ramp the voltage up to fuel pumps according to demand. Just throwing this out there.

CDW6212R · August 3, 2015

Turdle said:
...

I do know there are aftermarket fuel pump drivers which ramp the voltage up to fuel pumps according to demand. Just throwing this out there.

That's how the 1999+ Fords handle the fuel pumps, with varying the power/voltage. The pre-99's should be running virtually the same current at any rpm.

I would also include the frame in the electrical circuit, just for any added items that do or could go to the frame near the back(stereo etc). I've got a wire on my 99 leading to the frame from the front main radiator support ground, and one at my left rear for the air compressor I put in. That was the 30amp load I originally did it for, but I think it's helpful for the starter circuit too.

vroomzoomboom · August 3, 2015

the reason why i put a bigger alt pulley was to slow it down. the reason why i wanted to slow it down was the crank pulley that is on it is a inch in diameter larger then the stock one. i didnt want to spinning too fast because what my thought is it would wear the bearings out faster as well as overheat it. i dont know, or think you can log just the fuel pump, but i could be wrong. if there is a way, i dont know how to go about doing it. i also dont know how hard the meth pump is on the system. i dont want to unplug it either and go for a WOT. that is the only thing saving me right now from detonation.

gmanpaint · August 3, 2015

Bad TPS?

vroomzoomboom · August 3, 2015

if i sound like a grumpy fart, im not but please explain how that would effect voltage? i know when 4pointslow was looking at some of my data logs, he had said the voltage wasnt pegged the way it should be at WOT. i know andy and myself both have the same tps (bbk, and if i am wrong, correct me andy) and 4pointslow said both voltage and tps voltage were less the desired

gmanpaint · August 3, 2015

ECM reads the TPS voltage, and sends voltage out accordingly. TPS sends the signal From 1.5v to 5v. If the voltage signal is low, I was thinking it would affect other items such as spark or fuel delivery.

I'm just reaching here with that guess mind you. You asked for something missed, and this is what popped into my peanut brain. Thus the :dunno:

lol

ahodges · August 3, 2015

Yes, I have a BBK as well. I am using the TPS that came with the throttle body. You are right that 4pointslow said both things were the case on our datalogs. I know from having a friend help hold the gas pedal down that the butterfly on the throttle body was as far open as possible on mine. My voltage at it's lowest was about 1/2 volt higher than yours. With all that being the case, mine dyno'd fine and nothing was said about low voltage when I had mine tuned.

2000StreetRod · August 3, 2015

Charging indicator?

Does the charging indicator (looks like a battery) illuminate when the ignition is On but the engine not running? Does it go out when the engine is idling? What is the voltage across the battery posts with the engine off and with the engine idling? The charging circuit wiring is fairly simple but the voltage regulator may not be.

If you've replaced the stock charging indicator with an aftermarket LED it may affect the charging function. When I started my engine without the instrument cluster the alternator did not charge the battery.

Is the new power wiring stranded 100% copper, copper tinned or aluminum? 4 gauge wire is not that large but should be adequate. I used stranded 100% copper, 0 gauge from the alternator to the battery junction box, to the battery positive post and from the battery negative post to ground. I reused the battery to starter wire which I think is 4 gauge.

2000StreetRod · August 3, 2015

mega fuse & inline fuse

Some members add another wire with an inline fuse from the alternator positive terminal to the battery positive terminal instead of upgrading the stock wire from the alternator to the battery junction box. The diodes in the alternator can fail in shorted mode. The function of the mega fuse and the inline fuse (if installed) is to prevent a fire hazard in the event of shorted alternator diodes. I replaced my stock 175 amp mega fuse with a slow blow 250 amp mega fuse. That way I have fire protection if the diodes short and if the battery is dead and the alternator charges it with the rated 240 amps the mega fuse won't blow.

Dono · August 3, 2015

My simple minded opinion is that it isn't too much current draw causing the low voltage.
Something else is going on here that seems to have become even more pronounced in Evil.

Looking at the schematic, it does seem very odd that the voltage drops on all our v8's at wot. It would be cool to come up with a simple amp meter and stick it in line off the positive cable off the alternator to see what kind of current draw happens. I find it really hard to believe the ignition draws enough juice to cause a voltage drop in our trucks. Assuming the alternator is able to create close to 130 amps, at wot there should be no issue.

As 4pointslow suggested, if there was a charge system connection to the pcm, it could be plausible that the alternator would be turned off under wot to free up horsepower. Again, the schematic doesn't support that theory. We do know the air conditioning pump shuts its self off, but can clearly see why in air conditioning schematic.

It would seem the alternator does shut off under wot though. Can we prove, or disprove this? I wonder what the data log would look like with the alternator charge cable off and a wot pull done immediately during the day without the headlights on? I wish I had a amp meter that went past 10 amps. Then we could easily see whats happening. As Tim said, the only thing that turns on under wot that's different is the meth pump. The alternator should easily be able to handle this if the charging cct is working. How could the alternator be told to shut off under wot?

edit: I really think theres more going on than the schematic shows. How is it that 2000Streetrod didn't have his charging system working with his cluster unplugged? Im sitting here scratching my head.

4pointslow · August 4, 2015

Fan

Two of things that changed are the electric fan and water methanol pump.
If the fan controller is not pulse width modulated it will draw tons of current when it is on.

Since all three of the 5.0 explorer vehicles we are looking at drop down then you would think it is normal to drop down. But how much is normal and what is controlling that drop. Maybe the regulator, but based off of what? Voltage, temperature? Who knows? The PCM does not control the charging voltage on these vehicles, I checked the wiring diagrams. So if Dono's and Ahodges are normal drop off's then what was causing Tim's to be lower than them. Maybe the fan controller or water methanol pump? (and the pulley size making it worse)

If I recall Dono uses a pulse width modulated fan controller, do you have water methanol installed on the 5.0?

Ahodges, do you have an electric fan and if so what kind of controller? Do you have water methanol?

Both of you have 347"s now what size pulley's do you have, alternator and crank?

Tim, what is the CCA's of your battery, not the rating on the battery but the measurement of it. That has to be done with a tester(shop equipment not person) that has that capability. Also what is the alternator output in amps when the vehicle's charging system is put under load with the same tester. That could be done at different rpm's as well.

Another test is voltage drop, with the engine cranking. You put both leads on the same circuit at different points. On the ground side one would be on battery negative and the other on the bolts of the starter, crank it and see what the voltage reading is at the same time. Voltage drop is supposed to be .5 or less when the circuit is under load (on)(cranking). On the power side you would go from battery positive to the positive battery post at the starter, check voltage while cranking the engine over. Again .5 or less is desired.

These voltage drop tests can be modified to test other circuits as well. For a dim headlight you would go from the headlight ground to battery negative and from headlight positive to battery positive with the headlights on of course. Voltage should not drop more than .5
If it does than there is high resistance in the circuit due to corrosion or the wire size not being large enough etc.

2000StreetRod · August 4, 2015

exciter voltage & remote sense

Dono said:
. . . edit: I really think theres more going on than the schematic shows. How is it that 2000Streetrod didn't have his charging system working with his cluster unplugged? Im sitting here scratching my head.

The alternator needs an exciter current flowing thru the coils before it will generate any current. The path for the exciter current is:

battery > fuse 15 > charging indicator > alt terminal I

The 470 ohm resistor in parallel with the charging indicator allows current to flow if the bulb is burned out.

The output voltage of an alternator with no voltage regulator (VR) will continue to increase as rpm increases until the max voltage is reached (typically around 16 volts) at around 8K to 10K alternator rpm. Most alternators spin about 3 times engine speed. Our Explorer alternators have a remote sensing voltage regulator which in my opinion is the best configuration available. The solid state controller in the voltage regulator has a voltage reference (typically about 14 volts) that is compared to the remote sensed voltage. If the sensed voltage is less than 14 volts the VR will increase the output voltage. If the sensed voltage is greater than 14 volts the VR will decrease the output voltage. The path for the remote sensed voltage is:

mega fuse/alt B+ junction (Pwr Dist box) > Alt Sys Fuse > alt terminal A

14 volts is picked as a reference because a charged battery has a potential of about 12.6 volts. A higher voltage is required to keep the battery charged and make sure that load requirements (electric fan, etc.) is provided by the alternator instead of the battery. I assume the sense wire is routed to the power distribution box because that is considered the main bus for the vehicle power. However, the farther the load is from the Pwr Dist Box the lower the voltage will be at the load. Electric motors (fans, fuel pump, intercooler pump, etc.) are typically the greatest load in the vehicle. Often these motors get current thru marginal sized wires increasing the voltage drop to each device. Most high performance fuel pump manufacturers recommend increasing the wire size to the fuel pump to reduce voltage drop in the wires. The remote sense is distant from the local voltages at the motors and does not "recognize" the need to increase the alternator output voltage.

The PCM receives power from the PCM power relay and monitors the voltage at VPWR pin on the PCM connector. The PCM reference is chassis ground provided by the stud bolt/ground wire at the firewall next to the PCM connector (green arrow below).

I suggest checking the ground wire and stud bolt for a good connection to chassis ground so the PCM will have a good reference. By the way, James Henson hates to tune a vehicle with an unstable power source because it complicates the injection tuning and makes the PCM less reliable.

An interesting test would be to measure the voltage to chassis ground at the radiator fan motor. If it is significantly less than the remote sense voltage then the wire to the fan motor should be increased or the remote sensor could be moved closer to the fan motor.

I suspect that in my case at 3,000 engine rpm the output of the alternator as sensed by the VR exceeds 14 volts and the VR reduces the output voltage. It will be interesting to log another run with the intercooler heat exchanger fan running when activated by the Hobbs switch at 1 psi boost.

Dono · August 4, 2015

Ah. thanks Dale, I see it now. The lt Grn/Red is actually an input rather than an output on pin 1.
As you say, the ground reference could make a huge difference in how the regulator behaves. Since we have 3 x Explorer 5.0's showing symptoms of the same voltage drop to varying degree's It would seemingly be a design thing going on.

I just don't understand how the voltage regulator isn't keeping the voltage up.

4pointslow, on my log all that I have different from factory of any significance is my efan using pulse width modulation. If anything, there is less current draw normally as I don't use my actual headlights fro DRL's. Tim doesn't use his headlights for this either.

Why on earth would the factory want to lower the voltage at wot? I can't help but think its a voltage regulator thing, but Tim has tried a couple of whole alternators already.

edit: What would it take to bypass the internal voltage regulator and try an external one?
edit2: Everyone seems to upgrade to our 4g alternators and loose the external regulator. The best I could find was guys adding an external rectifier that they add to the internal rectifier.
http://alternatorparts.com/quicktifier-external-bridge-rectifier.html
This lead me to a simple 200 amp 3 phase rectifier:
http://www.mouser.com/Semiconductor...Bridge-Rectifiers/_/N-ax1mf?P=1yzv2q0Z1z0w4pf

I'm just not sure if its worth the effort, and doubt it would help with the current issue we have under wot condition.

ahodges · August 4, 2015

I do have dual electric fans controlled by a painless dual fan controller. I do not have a methanol kit. 347 yes, max RPMs 6,100, stock sized crank pulley and stock alternator pulley. 130 amp alternator. My fans are set to not come on when the ground speed is over 45mph. I have a yellow top 65 series Optima battery in mine, but do not currently know the true CCAs.

vroomzoomboom · August 4, 2015

for what this info is worth, i will post it. i went for a ride to a buddy's place who is about 10-15 mins away and did a voltage reading on some of the stuff. at rest (both before i left, truck sat overnight, and when i drove it to buddys house) i have a reading of 12.3 volts. now i wanted to see what it was doing when cranking, but couldnt because the hot side of the starter is way up top with a cap on it, right beside skin melting hot headers so we did a reading at the battery when cranking. it was 10.8 volts. with the truck warm and idling no matter where we took a reading it was at 13.8 volts and that was with the stereo on, but not pounding and the fans running as well. looks like the only thing that i shouldnt do is go WOT.....yea, right. like thats going to happen lol. i will see if i can take the truck back to the place that tested the alt and battery off the truck and see if they can test the charging system with everything intact.
don also gave me a link from another forum where it sounded like the guy had the same problem, but the solution is far from cheap http://www.modularfords.com/content/224-Nation-Auto-Electric-Alternator-Review?page=2
also, and as much as i hate saying this, looks like the dyno may be pushed back again....the shop thats doing it for me (and i am glad he is honest about it) had told me today the only thing they might be able to do is a remote tune. he's not really thrilled about it, neither am i for that matter. he would like to wait until the original guy he wants to do it is back from drag week (if he makes it there for that matter) but once again that might be in the middle of sept. but i know the guy is real good, i used to read about him in muscle mustangs and fast fords back in the day, he would be sitting there seeing and hearing what the truck is doing.

supercharged 5.0 true fire 98 explorer sport

vroomzoomboom

Elite Canuck STOCK SUCKS!

CDW6212R

Hauls the mail.

vroomzoomboom

Elite Canuck STOCK SUCKS!

ahodges

vroomzoomboom

Elite Canuck STOCK SUCKS!

Turdle

DIY stunt double

CDW6212R

Hauls the mail.

vroomzoomboom

Elite Canuck STOCK SUCKS!

gmanpaint

It's Always Something!

vroomzoomboom

Elite Canuck STOCK SUCKS!

gmanpaint

It's Always Something!

ahodges

2000StreetRod

2000StreetRod

Dono

04 GT

4pointslow

Explorer Torture Tester

2000StreetRod

Dono

04 GT

ahodges

vroomzoomboom

Elite Canuck STOCK SUCKS!

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