Completed Project Turboexplorer's Full Width SAS Build Thread

gmanpaint · March 3, 2015

That's a bunch of work. Sheesh.

So where do you think the play is coming from? Pinion shaft?

turboexplorer · March 3, 2015

ZWilson07 said:
No worries man, glad it wasn't bad.

It was nice seeing the pictures of explanation of the 4406 though.

Yeah its a very easy case to go through. I'll post additional pictures on a how to thread when I get the chance. I didn't end up doing seals or bearings but can describe how to in the thread.

turboexplorer · March 4, 2015

gmanpaint said:
That's a bunch of work. Sheesh.

So where do you think the play is coming from? Pinion shaft?

Yes it was a bunch of work that didn't really need to be done but hey at least I know the case is still great and its freshly resealed.

The play I was talking about earlier is actually the in the splines between the drive shaft slip yoke and the output shaft of the T-Case. Wasn't able to tell when it was in due to the rear transfer case seal. Once the case was fully disassembled I took the output shaft and slid it into the slip yoke and there is a small amount of play there. Both the internal splines on the slip yoke and the external ones on the output shaft look perfect and are clearly not worn as you can still see all machining marks from when they where made. So they have obviously been that way the whole time, also second drive line shop said that it wont create an issue and they weren't concerned about it. And even more the transfer case tail housing bushing is still in good order and is not even worn through the primary coating so it doesn't look to be an issue. So that is where the play is that I was feeling in the rear drive shaft when I would push up on it when it was in the truck.

Guess I will find out when I take it for a drive. Haven't felt up to it. One is raining hard and two I really don't want it to be still vibrating because if it is I will be frustrated. :banghead:

Still have both front seats to install is all then I can drive it and see.

Don't know if I mentioned it earlier but rear axle pinion shaft vertical play is "0.0000000" Its perfectly tight. And its flange face runout was "0.001" so well within spec and isn't an issue.

gmanpaint · March 4, 2015

What is your pinion angle relative to the tcase output?

Is it less than 4? You might have said before, but I can't remember

turboexplorer · March 4, 2015

So to recap the drive shaft. I bumped a rock, not hard at all but had a very small dent. So I took it int o get it retubed to avoid and drive shaft failures do to a weak spot. It did not vibrate on the drive back home after bum,ping the rock. However after it was retubed it vibrated badly. So I took it back in and he retubed it again. This time was like 30% better but still vibrated and was not okay by me in the least. He swore the drive shaft was perfect so I tore into the case to look further, found no issues. I then took the drive shaft to a second drive line shop and had them look at it. They said it was not straight and that the top 3/4 of the tube needed to be straightened. So they heat treated it and straightened it and rebalanced it. The weight from the first shop was moved and another was added at the other end of the shop so something had changed. I then took the receipt from the second drive line shop to the first and had him, reimburse me for the cost to have it corrected. So the third try at the shaft was free to me since he did reimburse me. Still swore it couldn't have had an issue but it obviously did. We then parted ways on cordial terms.

I didn't expect any issues when I took it to him to have it retubed as he is the one that built both my drive shafts in the first place. But this tells a different story, also in asking around (after I had him retube it originally

) I found that several people I know that run 4X4 shops have had customers with issues from there as well recently so no further business there.

Now for the dreaded test drive to fully see.

Test drive will =

or :fire: I'm sure [MENTION=87244]gmanpaint[/MENTION] felt this way about test drives after every brake repair he did trying to fix the soft brake pedal.

gmanpaint · March 4, 2015

I'm starting to wonder if he reused your yolks or not on the retube. That spline play just doesn't sit right with me the more I think about it. :scratch:

Oh, and yeah... Thanks for reminding me of all that anguish. Ugh...

turboexplorer · March 4, 2015

gmanpaint said:
What is your pinion angle relative to the tcase output?

Is it less than 4? You might have said before, but I can't remember

Rear pinion u joint working angle is 2.5-3* so under driving load should be near 1-1.5* Which is doable for sure. Ideally the working angle at a rest should be 2* so under load is .5-1* but that would require cutting off spring perches and moving them.

Which in all reality I may do anyways because the perches are 3/8-1/2" to close together. Found this out as I set the perches with the failed rear frame shackle bushings where the rear shackles where next to the frame. And now with everything new (all bushings and leafs) I have to pull the leafs inward to get the pins to sit in the perches. So they need to be moved a hair anyways and perches are cheap. So when I have a plasma in the garage I will cut them off and redo. I should have one sometime this summer as I want to notch the right frame rail for my right upper link and get an additional full inch of up travel and bump the front. Will do it all at that time.

turboexplorer · March 4, 2015

Yes both end yokes on the tube where reused. They put it in a lathe and they cut the welds then retube. And everything with the splines looks in perfect order so it has to have been the same since I have had this shaft and CV yoke in the truck since the SAS.

Lol, sorry about the sore reminder but knew someone has felt similar anxiety after what feels like 5,000 repairs.

gmanpaint · March 4, 2015

Axle shafts....Check
T-case..........Check
Drive shaft....Check (still skeptical of this)
Brake rotors..???? (slight warping)
Trans mount..???? (Bad bushing)

The only thing else left that I can think of is the dampening weights on the T-case and rear axle housing. I'm pretty sure you had the 5th shock and the lateral bar stock.

That's it, that's all I got. LOL!

BKennedy · March 4, 2015

I removed the dampening weights and there was no added vibration. The axle dampener was removed after it became a rock catcher. The transfer case one went with the transfer case when I installed the NP231.

You sure its not something simple like uneven or out of balance tires?

I agree that it is, most likely, the drive shaft. Its what was replaced before the issue started, correct? Unless your scrapping it in rocks caused some other drive line issue, but I don't see that being the case. I turned my rear drive shaft into a barber pole on the Rubicon and drove 12 hours home with no other issues.

turboexplorer · March 5, 2015

gmanpaint said:
Axle shafts....Check
T-case..........Check
Drive shaft....Check (still skeptical of this)
Brake rotors..???? (slight warping)
Trans mount..???? (Bad bushing)

The only thing else left that I can think of is the dampening weights on the T-case and rear axle housing. I'm pretty sure you had the 5th shock and the lateral bar stock.

Yes I had the 5th shock factory but its been gone for 50,000miles and never noticed a difference. I have never had a vibration weight on factory or this axle and never a concern. Also with the 4404 (factory AWD) and current 4406 (F-150) case neither ever had a vibration weight and never a concern. Brake rotors have never been a concern and no pulsing of any kind when braking. And trans mount checked when I had the case out and it still in good order.

Haven't driven it since the 2nd shop straightened the rear drive shaft. Been really busy at work and home.

BKennedy said:
I removed the dampening weights and there was no added vibration. The axle dampener was removed after it became a rock catcher. The transfer case one went with the transfer case when I installed the NP231.

You sure its not something simple like uneven or out of balance tires?

I agree that it is, most likely, the drive shaft. Its what was replaced before the issue started, correct? Unless your scrapping it in rocks caused some other drive line issue, but I don't see that being the case. I turned my rear drive shaft into a barber pole on the Rubicon and drove 12 hours home with no other issues.

I do have the 1 tire that is slightly out of round but that's been there since the swap. And as far as scrapping this is the only time I have rubbed something with it. Even factory. Trans pan, cats etc are all perfect and never been bumped.

And yes the rear drive shaft was the ONLY thing changed when it started the issue. And hard to describe but it is defiantly a drive line issue. Very Very fast vibration etc. It is something that is at full drive line speed. Only things that do that on my truck are rear pinion, drive shaft, t-case and transmission. Also manual shifting 3rd-4th etc doesn't change it in the slightest. I am fully convinced it was the rear drive shaft. 2nd shop said it wasn't straight which was my gut feeling on it.

Fixed drivers seat last night, fixing passenger seat tonight then will install and drive tomorrow. That will be the first drive on the straightened drive shaft. Just fixing the metal netting wires under the foam pad. Both seats have 2 broken metal netting wires and a spring on each seat has slid off the pull bar. (seats felt old) So figured while they are out I will look into it and yup found the reason. Netting fixed, foam that has small tears from sinking over the wires glued, new fabric net guard and a full cleaning. Good as new!!!

turboexplorer · March 16, 2015

Me and [MENTION=137709]sector9[/MENTION] drove down to Vegas to watch [MENTION=3964]sirhk100[/MENTION] race in the MINT 400 and to watch the big trophy trucks run. Was great to go and watch and to see what properly set up trucks are truly capable of. It really is mind blowing, we will be back next year to watch for sure.

Congrats to [MENTION=3964]sirhk100[/MENTION] and everyone else on and a part of that race team for taking 1st in their class!!!!!!! :thumbsup:

Awesome achievement!

turboexplorer · March 24, 2015

Still having rear drive line vibration issues. Even after the 2nd shop straightened it. But it is better it only vibrates under load now @ 60mph+. Before it would do it all the time. Now just on the throttle. If I get off the throttle it goes dead smooth and quiet. Tom Woods drive lines mentioned that there are 2 types of drive line vibrations. Torsion and Dynamic. Dynamic being the shaft not straight or true or out of balance. So when it vibrates it always does, load etc doesn't change it often is worse when shaft is in a coast with little load on it. Torsion being load related and is usually a angle problem, joint problem, or bent or worn inner CV ball etc. So in chasing it still I used a small piece of plate and changed the rear pinion angle to 1.5* and still exactly the same no change. 1.5* is under the recommended 2* even so we can rule that out for sure now. So that's not the issue. (still going to do new rear spring perches to fix the leaf alignment issue mentioned in earlier posts)

I called several well known drive line shops in California and Texas and everyone seams to think its the bushing the tail housing of the T-case. They think that is the reason for the play between the slip yoke and T-case. They all think that all the weight of the drive line and keeping the slip yoke in place is done by that bushing and that the shaft does not hang off the rear output shaft, and didn't seamed worried about the spline fit if both look good and don't have any signs of wear.

I got under over a dozen F-150's and Expeditions and all but 1 was dead tight. Like not even a .001" of vertical free play when pushing up and down on the shaft. The 1 that did have play was about the same as mine but was leaking incredibly bad. Mine doesn't even leak at the rear seal. So looks like the tank is coming out again and I will press in a new rear bushing.

It obviously should be nice and tight if every rig I got under was. All from 30K miles 170K and all still tight. 1 Expedition and 1 single cab short bed F-150 had CV slip yokes so I know that Ford had factory CV's in these T-cases. They looked 100% identical to my CV. So only thing left to do for that free play is that bushing, so that is next on the list. Curious why it has all started after the shaft change but whatever I don't care as long as I get it back on the road. Blah, what a dumb issue to have lol. :banghead:

So now my guess is that the shaft gets up to a nasty speed @ 3,000rpm and it gets thrown ever so slightly off to one side because of that play and then its no longer running true as it is ****ed in the T-case. And that is my vibration. (crossed fingers)

boominXplorer · March 25, 2015

Are you sure you have enough working angle to use the double cardon driveshaft? I have a 4406 in my ranger and have been chasing vibrations since I built it. My major shimmy was caused by an out of round tire with about 5000 miles on it. I tried everything until saying screw it and ordered 2 new tires. Put them on and the truck drives 10x better but then I could feel a vibration on coast between 60-70 mph. I knew when I built the truck when installing the d/c shaft and checking angles I was about 2* shy of having enough angle to use the joint correctly. I now have a normal single ujoint shaft and I don't have any vibrations till about 80mph now and I am pretty sure its all in the front drive shaft now.

turboexplorer · March 29, 2015

boominXplorer said:
Are you sure you have enough working angle to use the double cardon driveshaft? I have a 4406 in my ranger and have been chasing vibrations since I built it. My major shimmy was caused by an out of round tire with about 5000 miles on it. I tried everything until saying screw it and ordered 2 new tires. Put them on and the truck drives 10x better but then I could feel a vibration on coast between 60-70 mph. I knew when I built the truck when installing the d/c shaft and checking angles I was about 2* shy of having enough angle to use the joint correctly. I now have a normal single ujoint shaft and I don't have any vibrations till about 80mph now and I am pretty sure its all in the front drive shaft now.

Didn't know they had a min working angle. In everyone I have talked to no one has mentioned if that could be an issue. My CV working angle is roughly 13* so that should be plenty for use of the joint I would think, if I had a normal shaft it would end up being 13-14* per joint. Its a higher working angle than either the single cab short bed F-150 or the expedition that had factory CV's in them had.

turboexplorer · March 30, 2015

So in pursuit of the issue I pulled the gas tank again and pulled the tail housing off the T-Case. I had a new rear tail housing bushing pressed in. When you would slid just the tail housing over the slip yoke and wiggle it it did feel like a fair bit of play. The new bushing did feel to have a fair bit tighter fit.

I then installed it today and put the tank back in etc etc. Feels like I have had to do this a 100 times now,

. If you press up and down on the shaft by hand you still have the play where the slip yoke goes into the case. It is less but is still there. Again I got under a dozen trucks a week or so ago and all are dead tight with no play at all. So still a possible issue I guess. I didn't drive it all all I didn't want to be disappointed so I left it there. For all I know its fixed, but it may not be as well. No idea. I have a video of it showing the play I should get that on you tube and show you guys visually what I am talking about to make sure we are all on the same page.

If it is not fixed, my first thing to do is get my buddies F-150 and pull both rear shafts. Slide his drive shaft into my T-case and see if it has play or is tight, same with my drive shaft to his T-case. If both drive shafts have play in my case and none in his then the case I guess somehow has the issue. If his drive shaft is tight in both cases and mine is loose in both cases then its my slip yoke somehow. Its the only next step I can think of before calling outside the state to have a fully 100% new drive shaft made for it to the running tune of $600 for a CV style shaft.

Other possibility is if the CV itself has an issue in the alignment ball and pin that doesn't show up when its all straight on their balancing machines but does when its under a working angle? Heard that that pin in the CV can be bent and maybe me bumping the shaft was enough to bend it so it isn't holding the CV true under its working angle? Either way that would require a new one to be built as the CV alignment pin section is welded to the tubing.

---sigh---

Want my truck back

gmanpaint · March 30, 2015

I think your on the right path, by testing the shafts. Like I mentioned before, that play doesn't sit well with me. This test will tell.

turboexplorer · March 30, 2015

Agreed. Now even with new bushing there should be really no reason for the play in it. Hopefully I can get to that this week. Busy week plus leaving town this weekend for Easter it may not be until next week. Some point I'll have it fixed

boominXplorer · March 31, 2015

Now I didn't read all your history about your rear driveshaft but are you positive it came from a 4x4 truck? A 2wd expedition has the exact same spline count but smaller O/D on the slip yoke. I figured this out in the u-pull it yard looking for my first driveshaft. Its a good 1/8" difference so I would think it would leak at the seal pretty good too.

The more and more I drive my truck the better it feels with my new single joint shaft in it. My issue was either I didn't have enough working angle (only had about 7* between flanges) or my top 2 u-joints were worn out (didn't seem to be but were original with over 150k mi). If it was the right size I would make you a good deal on it but its probably a good 8" too long for an explorer with even with your lift.

Oh and out of curiosity what is the cost for a retubed and balanced shaft out that way? The shop I use is $1 per inch of tube plus $100 for labor.

turboexplorer · March 31, 2015

boominXplorer said:
Now I didn't read all your history about your rear driveshaft but are you positive it came from a 4x4 truck? A 2wd expedition has the exact same spline count but smaller O/D on the slip yoke. I figured this out in the u-pull it yard looking for my first driveshaft. Its a good 1/8" difference so I would think it would leak at the seal pretty good too.

The more and more I drive my truck the better it feels with my new single joint shaft in it. My issue was either I didn't have enough working angle (only had about 7* between flanges) or my top 2 u-joints were worn out (didn't seem to be but were original with over 150k mi). If it was the right size I would make you a good deal on it but its probably a good 8" too long for an explorer with even with your lift.

Oh and out of curiosity what is the cost for a retubed and balanced shaft out that way? The shop I use is $1 per inch of tube plus $100 for labor.

I Had the shaft built so it has 7,000 miles on it is all. It was 100% new with the SAS.

I have had it re tubed twice and balanced 3 times by 2 different shops so no idea why it has the issue. Like I said I bumped a rock and even driving back from bumping the rock it didn't feel like it does now. So the only thing that has changed is having the drive line re tubed as a precautionary measure as I didn't want it to candy cane on me at a poor moment.

First re tube was $125, everything since has been free due to the issues. Had the first shop reimburse me for the cost of the 2nd shop looking at it.

Completed Project Turboexplorer's Full Width SAS Build Thread

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