Completed Project Turboexplorer's Full Width SAS Build Thread

turboexplorer · September 10, 2014

Here is a video from June doing a night run up to Forest Lake.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3bfGbWBtH8&feature=youtu.be

turboexplorer · September 16, 2014

Got the side rock lights done and the control box in a few weeks ago just after the hitch was put on. Turned out awesome and control box works perfect. Really nice to have the rock lights come on with the doors.

Let the fun begin.

Ford was kind enough to have all the door switch signals all in a line. Every single one in a line. LF, LR, RF, RR, (Left hatch, Right Hatch, and rear glass all as 1 wire). Made it really easy.

If you look under the radio support ledge and mounting holes you can see the velcro that was used to mount the box. Big sections of the velcro, holds it tight with no rattles and easy to get to and remove if needed since it way down there behind the HVAC controls.

White wires all coming down from the top left of the hole are the control signals. Easy to tap into the BCM for them since its mounted just to the left of the radio.

View of the drivers side as I got them wired up. Love how bright they are

Looks amazing and with both sides on its really cool looking. Cant wait to have time to do the front and rear which will have the same amount of light as well, which is 3 Lights per side.

So a recap the left lights will turn on with either left front or rear doors, right lights on with right front or rear doors, and rear lights on with hatch open or glass open, or they all (front, left, right, back) will come on with 1 switch.

Very happy with the set up and kinda unique. :thumbsup:

Ill get some mount pictures up of how they where mounted to the sliders.

turboexplorer · September 21, 2014

So here is my wiring diagram for what I drew up before I ordered parts and built the control box for the rock lights.

I also marked the inputs and outputs so that you don't ever have to open the box to remind yourself what wire does what.

Inside the control box.

Used foam to hold it all nice and tight and also put the hand made wiring diagram into the box so I never loose it.

turboexplorer · September 21, 2014

For mounting I started out finding where I wanted to mount them and then picking up some 1/8" X 3/4" steel to make the mounts. After a template was made the metal was then cut to length.

Then all bent to fit the template. Had to adjust the template after I saw that I needed to bent the light portion a little more to aim lights outward.

Then drilled light mounting holes and trimmed corners and painted the mounts.

Then measure the sliders really well for distances from the tires so that the lights aren't to close to the tires to create shadows. And weld them on in place.

You can see how they are angled outward to get a much better and useful light. Even with the windows fully up you can still see the edge of the light. Can also see the lights are above the bottom of the sliders, in hopes that I wont bump them. 3 lights mounted per side.

gmanpaint · September 21, 2014

That is a lot of detailed work! :thumbsup:

turboexplorer · September 22, 2014

Thanks! Really like how it turned out.

turboexplorer · October 20, 2014

Last weekend we got Sector9's first gen lifted. He will do a thread with some of the build at some point. Used the James Duff 6" lift without the rear springs. We did a spring over and kept the factory springs. Did 35" MTR's as well. Turned out great. We did the cross member and radius arm mounts a few weeks ago and regeared and locked it the week before. Then had my dad and three of us brothers last weekend and got it all knocked out in 1 1/2 days. The mounts, brackets, arms etc all really well built and fit well. However ANYTHING to do with the brake lines was completely wrong and the stuff from Duff was HORRIBLE to say the least. Rear line wrong, front lines both wrong etc etc. Very poorly thought out system Duff sends with the kits and very frustrating. However as I said the actual lift was very well built and fit very well, even though their instructions leave a lot to be desired. Very poor instructions.

Before

Big jack stands came in VERY handy for this project lifted the whole truck really high and it made the whole lift really easy. Several people could be working at the same time and we got it all knocked out in no time.

After

turboexplorer · October 20, 2014

Anyone ever ordered springs from ATS Springs? My rear leafs are starting to look very sad from all the wheeling. They are starting to W fairly bad. I currently have the factory leafs and an add a leaf that is the same length as the 3rd spring. I also run the lift shackles that are common when they are still T-Bared in the front. I have emailed and tried to call Deaver and they have yet to even respond to me so guess they aren't interested in the business. The factory leafs seam to flex well and they hold the weight of trailers and cargo well. So going to go with them I think and the small price of factory leafs makes it appealing as well. Even though I'm willing to spend more money to get more product.

Link to factory replacement leafs.
Link to factory HD leafs.
The factory leafs have the 3 leafs and the overload spring and the HD springs have 4 leafs and the overload spring. I want to call them tomorrow and see what length the extra leaf is.

The other benefit to new leafs is the new rubber eyelets that are very sad on mine as well. I am also going to at the very least for now replace the frame mounted shackle bushing. Ford also has these for $36 each. Mine have failed and the shackles have slide over and are starting to lightly rub on the frame, at normal ride height not just while wheeling.

If I where to go the route of factory springs I am really thinking of doing what bkennedy did with his rear leafs.

I could use my original springs to do the conversion. And we all know that his rig flex's very well. I know in the go fast crowd making hybrid leafs is not recommended and a tuned leaf is very important to get the most from the suspension.

So again anyone bought springs through ATS? And any input on ideas for if the hybrid pack is worth doing or should I try to contact Deaver harder? Need to talk to them to see if axle wrap is an issue with the thin leaves. The 37's and 5.13's and V8 make me think they may not like all the TQ. Also their ability to hold an additional 500-1,000lbs of cargo and trailer. Rick has aftermarket leafs maybe he can shed some light on the subject and with how both sides worked for him?

Pro's and Con's? bkennedy may also make a few comments on if the hybrid is the way he would go again or if he would consider the aftermarket. sirhk100 can chime in from the go fast side, he has wheeled a bunch as well so input would be nice.

Lay down your thoughts! :thumbsup:

gmanpaint · October 20, 2014

I'm not SOA, but I have the hybrid leaf packs. For me, it was fairly easy to get a set of 2wd 3" F-150 packs. Netted 4" of lift by adding a couple leafs to them. Cost me $50 for the F-150 packs. Eliminated the extended shackles, and still wheel on em years later.

Now your main leaf is in need of replacement, so either a new pack for the main, or a used set for the mains. Depending on your budget, Deaver packs would be awesome, but you can build 5-6 used hybrid sets for the cost of one Deaver set up. Removing the lift shackles extended my main life span (inversion), and my pinion angle was reduced.

As far as axle wrap, I know Rick installed a anti wrap bar, and Maniak recently went SOA with no anti wrap. Both are geared as low as you, run the 4.0L, but have lower crawl ratio's with trans & t-case swaps. The TQ has increased for them, and I'm sure they both can give insights.

I have the lift shackles, and a 2" leaf pack lift, on a 1st gen, and haul heavy loads with it. After a couple years, I have to change the main leafs from inversion at the rear mounts. I will build another hybrid pack and eliminate the lift shackles. This time, it will cost me more as I have to buy both explorer & F-150 packs.

It would be awesome if we could buy just the main leaf with new bushings new, then add the F-150 leafs for lift.

BKennedy · October 20, 2014

I have never had axle wrap issues, but I am easy in the throttle. I also have 5:13 gears, a NP231 and 700R4, which lower my low range and give me more throttle control.
I have put over 2500 miles on the truck since I went with the frankenleafs. They are fine for me and total cost, including the graphite paint, was about $75.
Part of the miles was over 700 during the Mojave Road adventure shortly after the SAS completion. The leaf springs performed well in all types of terrain and complimented the front suspension. When unloaded, they are a little firm. When full of camping gear or people, they are great. With your wider axle you should get more flex out of them.
If I ever decide to go with a custom leaf, I would go with National Spring in El Cajon, CA. One trip to their shop will convince you they know what they are doing.
I think part if the reason your leafs wore out so fast is due to the full-width axles and the add a leaf. Having two springs the same length is keeping the rest of the pack from flexing. The wider axle is forcing flex at the ends if the two same length leafs instead of evenly throughout the pack, when a stock width axle just would not flex the springs (I think that made sense). My suggestion is to try a frankenleaf. If you don't like it, you have not wasted a bunch if $$.

Let's talk leaf bushings for a minute. I prefer OEM rubber to poly. They allow more movement which I think helps the springs last due to less binding at the mounts. If anyone us having trouble locating OEM, call National Spring. They can get you whatever you need.

Sent from my XT907 using Forum Runner

BKennedy · October 20, 2014

I was thinking of picking up another stock leaf pack and attempting to do a partial "military wrap" setup. If you cut off the eyelets about 2/3 of the way, I think they could be heated slightly and pounded over another main leaf. Maybe not, but its worth a try for cheap. If it doesn't work, I can just keep the springs for spares. I think the weak link in the frankenleaf setup, is the main leaf.

james t · October 20, 2014

No added input- im in the same boat. Im on my 3rd set of "rebuilt" junkyarders and they're W'ed all to hell. I cant decide either new stockers from ATS and build a traction bar or Nationals.

ATS- dirt cheap, bolt in replacement, minimal fab work on the bar

Nationals- cheaper than Deaver, but still big $$$. Upside is I would go 2-3" lift springs then french the hanger into the frame and run shackle sliders gaining a lot of clearance while keeping my same lowrider ride height. Downside is that's a bunch of work and I don't have a lot of free time lately.

turboexplorer · October 21, 2014

gmanpaint said:
Now your main leaf is in need of replacement, so either a new pack for the main, or a used set for the mains.

As far as axle wrap, I know Rick installed a anti wrap bar, and Maniak recently went SOA with no anti wrap. Both are geared as low as you, run the 4.0L, but have lower crawl ratio's with trans & t-case swaps. The TQ has increased for them, and I'm sure they both can give insights.

Yes I feel that the main leaf is in need of replacement. 1 because they are old and worn and starting to W as well as both bushings on the spring are shot and 2 for safety reasons. Been wheeled hard and would be nice to know the main leaf is fresh.

I plan on doing a traction bar at some point as well. That would eliminate the issue of over TQ'ing the leafs at all even if it takes years to stress the leafs. Still playing around with using the factory V8 traction bars, I could do this swap and get flex correct then install them and see if they limit the flex or not? Will see.

BKennedy said:
I have never had axle wrap issues, but I am easy in the throttle. I also have 5:13 gears, a NP231 and 700R4, which lower my low range and give me more throttle control.

When unloaded, they are a little firm. When full of camping gear or people, they are great. With your wider axle you should get more flex out of them.

I think part if the reason your leafs wore out so fast is due to the full-width axles and the add a leaf. Having two springs the same length is keeping the rest of the pack from flexing. The wider axle is forcing flex at the ends if the two same length leafs instead of evenly throughout the pack, when a stock width axle just would not flex the springs (I think that made sense). My suggestion is to try a frankenleaf. If you don't like it, you have not wasted a bunch if $$.

Let's talk leaf bushings for a minute. I prefer OEM rubber to poly. They allow more movement which I think helps the springs last due to less binding at the mounts. If anyone us having trouble locating OEM, call National Spring. They can get you whatever you need.

I am fairly easy on the throttle as well most of the time. (Unless in sand :burnout:

) I have never had wrap issues either was mainly suggesting it as an issue if I went with the thin leafs from national or deaver. I think the factory leafs do well with that or at least have for me.

Unloaded they where a bit stiff and you have the bumper and spare etc on the rear so I think I may go with the ATS HD set up which I will talk about in a minute.

I also agree the full width is able to put more pressure on the leafs than the narrower stock axle due to the added leverage. But in turn can translate to slightly more wheel travel due to the distance from the leaf. (currently badly limited by the shocks for droop) And I fully agree with the add a leaf causing and issue after all these years. It is the same length as the 3rd factory leaf so it adding additional pressure in the center for the main leaf. Instead of longer leafs to really flatten out the load across the whole length.

And also as usual I agree on the bushings. The encased rubber bushings like where run from the factory are the way to go. Little easier on the leafs and ride slightly better. Frame side shackle bushing. That is what I am going with for sure. And both local Ford dealer and ATS carry the frame mounted shackle bushing.

Alright onto next post

turboexplorer · October 21, 2014

I swear it looks worst in person than in the pictures. But here is some random pictures showing my current set up. You can see the add a leaf the same length as the 3rd factory leaf. And you can see the W starting as well. The main leaf is starting to kink a little.

As you can see the rear frame side shackle bushing has failed and the shackle is against the frame.

turboexplorer · October 21, 2014

So onto what I found out today I called ATS and talked with Bob. Sounded like a cool guy and says he has been there forever and that they make all the springs in house. The factory replacement spings they have are the exact arch load etc as factory packs. The HD replacement leafs have 4 leafs instead of the 3. They build a leaf in between the factory main leaf and the factory 2nd leaf. Similar to a add a leaf but in the right spot

Also just like bkennedy did with his. bkennedy said his was a bit stiff unloaded and has the bumper and spare over the rear so the 4 leafs should be just right for my rig at this point. Also ATS said with factory weight the 4 leaf pack will net 2-1/2" of lift over the factory leaf due to the additional load capacity. This is perfect, that way I can get rid of the lift shackles and keep the same ride height. And worst case if I need to go in between the current shackles and factory ones I can drill holes a bit higher on the lower mount of the lift shackles for a middle ground if needed. I want to keep the factory ride height. So with the new leaf pack and a longer added leaf being roughly 2" I should be able to remove the lift shackles and end up right about where I want it.

So here are rough measurements of the current add a leaf lengths.

ATS said the leaf they add is 22" on the front side and 27" on the rear side. So you can see where that would end up on the main leaf.

And again with the failed frame side shackle bushings.

Should have been replaced a while ago but didn't fully shift until the swap.

Anyways so that's what ATS said for the HD pack. And since I am wanting whole new packs because mine are tired and all bushings are shot this seams like a good route to go. Still ends up at $260 for both rear springs but it could be worse. Thoughts? Anything I am missing? Only thing is I have no idea how much my current set up is sagging compared to a healthy factory pack.

gmanpaint · October 21, 2014

The F-150 leafs are a little different length than the Ex leafs. The one under the Ex main is much longer and gives more support. I have 6 leafs and the overload in these packs. I had one leaf made at a local spring shop, and used a small add a leaf on the bottom. Extended shackles would invert it much faster than without. Center load is shifted to the rear with more weight on it with them longer shackles. Keeping the load distributed to both hangers evenly helps eliminate inversion and the dreaded W.

BKennedy · October 21, 2014

Sounds like it would be worth it to go with the new springs as the price is right. Let us know how they work. I have five leafs total which gave me the height I wanted without the overload leaf and shims. You think they would make you a set where the bottom leaf is not an overload? I took mine off because it limited compression. You can always turn them over so they are arched down.
Before you install, pull them apart and spray them with a coat of graphite based coating like this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/EZ-Slide-Ae...=BI_Heavy_Equipment_Parts&hash=item5d4dc4de11

I think that is part of the reason I get so much flex. Saw it in a magazine about getting more flex on the cheap.

turboexplorer · October 23, 2014

Last night was busy removing the lift shackles from Sector9's rear leafs. Dropped it back down exactly 1 1/2" by installing the factory shackles which is exactly what it needed to match the front. Looks much better.

Also got the front TTB D35 re geared to the 4.88's so its ready to install when there is another spare evening.

I got the frame side shackle bushings ordered through Ford on Tuesday. They where supposed to come in today so I'll run over there and snag them tomorrow at lunch. They went down to $33.75 so cheaper than anywhere else. I was going to order the springs on Tuesday as well but the shipping is $70

. Guess still not to bad seeing as how they are big heavy and awkward but was like :scratch: The wife was even mad I didn't order them

So think since shipping is the same I'm going to see how much additional they want to make that 5th leaf. Would go between the factory 2nd and 3rd leaf like bkennedys leafs. I wouldn't run it at first and see height but would have on hand for when/if I ever get a rear bumper made and run a big spare. So will see. But either way doing the shackle bushings really soon.

Bkennedy how much difference did you see without the overload? One picture I saw looks like you may go just a hair negative.

BKennedy · October 23, 2014

Right now its parked in the garage with the cargo area full of wood and the springs are not flat. The overload leaf made no difference installed or not.

You think ATS would install a spring guide instead of wrapping them? The guide allows much more movement, which = more flex. You can see what I did in the pic you posted of my frankenleafs. If they will do a guide, have them install on the back side of the leaf as opposed to the front where the stock wrap is located. I turned a wrap into a guide by straightening out the wrap and running a bolt through it. Ended up contacting the frame and breaking.

turboexplorer · October 23, 2014

Thought you said it flexed better and had more compression travel with it off.

Completed Project Turboexplorer's Full Width SAS Build Thread

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