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Towing with 2011 5 th generation Explorer

Anyone had any experience with this? Ford says 5000 lbs. GCWR is supposed to be 10,125. Vehicle weighs 4614 and payload is about 1335. When you reference the towing package they reference a 150 lb driver. Why ? Has any one towed a trailer about 4000 lbs with a passenger and about 400 lbs of gear over a long distances? The
 



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Do you have the class III towing package?
 






Anyone had any experience with this? Ford says 5000 lbs. GCWR is supposed to be 10,125. Vehicle weighs 4614 and payload is about 1335. When you reference the towing package they reference a 150 lb driver. Why ? Has any one towed a trailer about 4000 lbs with a passenger and about 400 lbs of gear over a long distances? The
Any truck, any truck-based SUV, and some crossovers (like the 5th gen Explorer) will only allow the full tow rating when you only have a driver in the vehicle. In other words:
GCVWR = Empty vehicle + max tow rating + 150lbs

Other crossovers and most modern minivans (aka, lighter duty vehicles) will often allow up to several hundred lbs in the vehicle and still allow the full max tow rating. In other words:
GCVWR = Empty vehicle + max tow rating + ??? (more than just a hypothetical driver).

The reason (IMO) is that the truck-based vehicles always have a very strong frame, often strong enough to the point that the limiting factor is the drivetrain. Take the 4th gen Explorer. V8 got up to 7300 lbs rating. V6 was only up to 5500. V6 with less cooling was only 3500. But all had the same strong frame. They were drivetrain limited. Once you hit the tow rating, you can't put more in the truck because the driveline is maxed out. But that tow rating will be much more than a minivan (of course).

But the lighter duty crossovers and minivans are/were structure limited. They have plenty of power from modern V6 engines, but the unibody is only designed to handle what it was designed for. Therefore, once you hit the max tow rating, the drivetrain may (or may not) be capable of safely handling more. In the case of my last minivan, it amounted to about 350 lbs of van cargo at my 3500 lbs tow rating. Since I towed a 3000lbs popup, I had 850 lbs of capacity in the van, which was plenty for my family and some tools in the hatch.

It's all in the numbers. Asking why? Well, you'd have to speak to the engineers (and perhaps the marketing folks).:salute:
 






My recommendation to you would be, rather than use the 150 lbs game, since you already have the truck (right?), just get it weighed (if not available on a sticker somewhere), and subtract that weight from the 10,125 GCVWR. If 4614 is accurate, that leaves you with:
10125 - 4614 = 5511lbs "hauling rating" (my term for loaded trailer plus cargo in truck). This means you actually have 5000lbs available for the trailer, plus 511lbs in the truck.
If you want to tow a trailer that is 4000 bls LOADED (not dry!), you'd have 1511lbs available.

But I suspect your truck actually weighs more than 4614. But as you can see, using the GCVWR is much more accurate, and might find some capacity for you.
 












First off, I would be interested to see where the OP got his/her figures because I rarely see manufacturers even mention how load in the truck itself affects tow ratings, let alone give actual weights. When I actually do see weights mentioned, it is typically for a driver and one passenger (150lbs each). Anything above that would be deducted from the max tow rating. That is also the SAE J2807 standard.

Secondly, this method worries me.

10125 - 4614 = 5511lbs "hauling rating" (my term for loaded trailer plus cargo in truck). This means you actually have 5000lbs available for the trailer, plus 511lbs in the truck.

Applying industry standards, if you subtract the 511lbs you put in your truck from the tow rating, the rating is now reduced to 4489. If you tow 5000lbs, you are over the tow rating. Can the truck handle the extra load? Maybe but get into an accident and you could get ticketed and your insurance company could deny your claim. Ford could even void power train warranty if you tow overloaded long term and develop a problem. This method also does not take into account GVWR and axle ratings which could be exceeded by passengers and gear alone before even coupling up a trailer. For those reasons, I would not recommend this method.

Thirdly, with respect, I could not disagree more with this statement:
But as you can see, using the GCVWR is much more accurate, and might find some capacity for you.
There is nothing you can do to increase capacity. Playing with vehicle weight ratings, using weight distribution, putting on beefier shocks or brakes, driving slow or within a certain speed limit, etc. will not "find you more capacity." The tow ratings are the tow ratings.

My suggestion would be to look on your driver side door sash where your tire and certification stickers are located. They will list many of the capacities that are relevant for towing such as RAWR, FAWR, GVWR, payload, tire load ratings, etc. If you stay within these capacities, you'll have a much better chance of having a safer towing experience. Think of these capacities as links in a chain. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. IMO, RAWR, GVWR or GVCWR will likely be the weakest link. Stay under that weakest link and you will likely be within all other capacities.
 






This has nothing to do with industry standards, but has everything to do with using the numbers published by the OEM. I was only using the numbers that the OP supplied. I think it's important to look at all of your ratings, and do the math. This likely means putting aside any previously-assumed standards and rules.

By your standards, you would take a vehicle that weighs 4614, a 5000 max tow rating, and a 150 driver, and add them up to 9764 lbs, which would be the max GCVWR.

But the OP said his manual gives him a GCVWR of 10125! So, where can they put that extra 361lbs? Does 361lbs just have to go unused? Then why publish the 10125 number, if it's not attainable? If you think they should get another 150 lbs passenger allowance (which isn't mentioned by the OP), that still leaves 211lbs in neverland.

The reality is that (as I said), most full-frame trucks calculate GCVWR exactly as you state. But when it comes to lighter-duty crossovers (like the 2011 Explorer), minivans, etc, there is often the ability to put a bit more in the vehicle, because these vehicles are structure-limited.

So, I say that 361 lbs should get added to the 150 lbs driver allowance, where is where I get my 511 lbs figure.
 






By your standards, you would take a vehicle that weighs 4614, a 5000 max tow rating, and a 150 driver, and add them up to 9764 lbs, which would be the max GCVWR.
First of all, these are not MY standards. They are actually your "standards" that you created. I never calculated how to get to the GCWR. At best, by your math, this is the gross combined CURB weight not the GCWR.

This has nothing to do with industry standards, but has everything to do with using the numbers published by the OEM. I was only using the numbers that the OP supplied. I think it's important to look at all of your ratings, and do the math. This likely means putting aside any previously-assumed standards and rules.
I beg to differ. Any valid towing-related question must take into account towing standards and rules. "Putting them aside" would be akin to ignoring the rules put into place for safety, not to mention a few rules of physics. And how do you think Ford arrived at their OEM numbers? They had to use some sort of standard, albeit proprietary and not well published.

I could not AGREE more that it is important to look at all ratings but a basic understanding of the interplay between the ratings is just as important because ratings published by auto makers can often times be confusing and contradictory of each other. Take your example of the 361lbs that you inquired whether or not it would go "unused". The short answer is YES. IF RAWR, GVWR or any other rating is met, then I would stop adding weight to the trailer and/or tow vehicle. If I am reaching the capacity of one rating (say for instance RAWR), why would I keep adding weight for the sake of getting closer to another rating (say for instance the GCWR) when that extra weight can overload my rig (at the RAWR)? This is the interplay that I'm speaking of. You cannot take each rating separately. You must see how weight on one rating affects other ratings. This goes back to my suggestion to think about ratings as links in a chain. Take the weakest link and stay under that rating, and all other ratings should be within specs.

Personally, I always look at towing and related ratings as much as marketing numbers as they are performance/safety standards. With the SAE J2807 I previously mentioned, I'm open to the idea of being less critical of them, but I am critical of them for the sake of erring on the side of caution, rather than trying to get the most "capacity".

The reality is that (as I said), most full-frame trucks calculate GCVWR exactly as you state.
Again, I never stated how GCWR is calculated. I was providing an example of how adding weight inside the tow vehicle affects the tow rating. Please stop attributing comments to me that I never made.

when it comes to lighter-duty crossovers (like the 2011 Explorer), minivans, etc, there is often the ability to put a bit more in the vehicle, because these vehicles are structure-limited.
This is the first I'm hearing of this. I'm completely lost here. To me this reads, because light-duty crossovers and minivans are weaker, you can put more in them. Feel free to flame me on this interpretation as I freely admit I have no idea what you are talking about.
 






Isn't SAE J2807 the new tow certification standard no one is using yet? Except for full size pickups starting this year and even then not agreed to by all manufacturers. Just like SAE certified HP, only a few vehicles by any manufacturer use them. Prior to that the Big Three used that hill climb in the desert and self certified that their vehicle did "OK".

The engineers won't tell what the limiting factor is for any given vehicle. The liability lawyers come out of the woodwork. This all leaves me to believe that marketing plays the most significant roll, within reason.
 






Isn't SAE J2807 the new tow certification standard no one is using yet? Except for full size pickups starting this year and even then not agreed to by all manufacturers. Just like SAE certified HP, only a few vehicles by any manufacturer use them. Prior to that the Big Three used that hill climb in the desert and self certified that their vehicle did "OK".

The engineers won't tell what the limiting factor is for any given vehicle. The liability lawyers come out of the woodwork. This all leaves me to believe that marketing plays the most significant roll, within reason.

Actually, I believe it was toyota that first applied the SAE standards back in 2011….a full 3 years after SAE was first published if that says anything about the auto makers' (lack of) interest in adopting them. Although I will say that the standards were revised in 2010 so that might have contributed to the slow adoption. But for the first time this (or maybe next year?), all major truck manufacturers will be applying SAE J2807 to their truck lines. I believe Dodge is still the only one that applies the standards across their entire truck line though but don't quote me.

Yes, for the clear present, there is no single standard. Auto makers clearly enjoy inventing their own recipes at how they arrive at their tow ratings and yes, figuring out how they arrived at those ratings is nearly impossible, which again, can make them confusing and/or contradictory. I may not like them but the standards are the standards, whether SAE or proprietary.
 






Not that this matters to the OP but thats why I throw them out. He should not. He should listen to the owners manual. In my case, little is stock about the truck. It even has a boxed frame. Finally hurt the engine a bit with a very slight overheat. The twin core aluminum radiator had been bullet proof until then. I'll replace the radiator with a 3 or maybe even 4 core with the engine mods.

Yep, Dodge got on the band wagon first. I think Ford was last to agree. Didn't know any of the imports had. Still thought they were only certifing their full size pickups.
 






Actually, I believe it was toyota that first applied the SAE standards back in 2011….a full 3 years after SAE was first published if that says anything about the auto makers' (lack of) interest in adopting them. Although I will say that the standards were revised in 2010 so that might have contributed to the slow adoption. But for the first time this (or maybe next year?), all major truck manufacturers will be applying SAE J2807 to their truck lines. I believe Dodge is still the only one that applies the standards across their entire truck line though but don't quote me.

Yes, for the clear present, there is no single standard. Auto makers clearly enjoy inventing their own recipes at how they arrive at their tow ratings and yes, figuring out how they arrived at those ratings is nearly impossible, which again, can make them confusing and/or contradictory. I may not like them but the standards are the standards, whether SAE or proprietary.

Thank you for clarifying my point:
-Trucks have pretty much adopted this standard for tow ratings, which leave non-trucks (crossovers, minivans, etc) using other methods.
-There is no single standard. Some require subtracting any cargo/passenger weight from the tow rating. Others will still have some capacity for cargo/passengers, even when at max tow rating.
 






Isn't SAE J2807 the new tow certification standard no one is using yet? Except for full size pickups starting this year and even then not agreed to by all manufacturers. Just like SAE certified HP, only a few vehicles by any manufacturer use them. Prior to that the Big Three used that hill climb in the desert and self certified that their vehicle did "OK".

The engineers won't tell what the limiting factor is for any given vehicle. The liability lawyers come out of the woodwork. This all leaves me to believe that marketing plays the most significant roll, within reason.
Exactly! And since when has an SAE standard trumped the owner's manual, when it comes to what is required? SAE standards are for the automotive OEMs, suppliers, etc, to consider adopting. But they are not equivalent to law.

We should point people to their owner's manual (which is why every vehicle comes with one), not tell them that they have to go read every SAE paper out there before they can operate their vehicle (towing or otherwise).
 






Thank you for clarifying my point:
-Trucks have pretty much adopted this standard for tow ratings, which leave non-trucks (crossovers, minivans, etc) using other methods.

I'm not clarifying your point at all. I was just describing the current state of the industry in terms of towing. If it so happens to clarify your point, then I guess it's your prerogative to use the one post that I made that actually might bolster your claim and ignore the rest of my posts that don't.

-There is no single standard. Some require subtracting any cargo/passenger weight from the tow rating. Others will still have some capacity for cargo/passengers, even when at max tow rating.

I still disagree with this and quite frankly must state that this is just incorrect. If there was still some capacity for cargo/passengers, even when at max tow rating, then why would auto makers, Ford especially based on the OP's original post, make mention of a 150lb driver? If it didn't matter how much was in the truck, then why mention it? For the sake of argument, let's just say you are correct. Let's pull a trailer at max tow capacity and also place more than one passenger in the truck. Technically you would not be overloaded BUT you will be towing at MAX capacity. Do you really want to be at MAX capacity for however long you are towing with your family and other precious cargo along for the ride? I certainly would not be pushing the limits with what I know is at stake. And if you are ok towing at MAX tow capacity, then would you also be ok running your motor at redline for the entire trip because that's also squeezing out every ounce of the truck's capability. Or how about waiting until the very last drop of gas in your tank is used before filling up? Or waiting until every centimeter of tire tread is worn before replacing tires? I would also provide an example involving brakes that would probably hit home for you but I think you see my point.

Exactly! And since when has an SAE standard trumped the owner's manual, when it comes to what is required? SAE standards are for the automotive OEMs, suppliers, etc, to consider adopting. But they are not equivalent to law.

You miss the point. If an auto maker choses to adopt SAE standards to reach ratings and capacities, would they not place those ratings and capacities in the owners manual? They may not be equivalent to law, but where do you think the police will look when they are deciding if you were towing overloaded to see if they can write you a ticket if you get into an accident? And where do you think insurance companies are going to look when they decide to deny your claim? Do yourself a favor and never try to find out.

We should point people to their owner's manual (which is why every vehicle comes with one), not tell them that they have to go read every SAE paper out there before they can operate their vehicle (towing or otherwise).
The owner's manual is a good place to start but it is not the single authority. How many times have you looked at a manual and scratched your head because it didn't seem to have all the info you were looking for? In fact, owners manuals often direct you to other sources. I'm not saying to read every SAE paper out there before operating a vehicle but what I am saying is to have a solid understanding of what is involved in towing. Reading only the owner's manual will not do that.
 






...
I still disagree with this and quite frankly must state that this is just incorrect. If there was still some capacity for cargo/passengers, even when at max tow rating, then why would auto makers, Ford especially based on the OP's original post, make mention of a 150lb driver? If it didn't matter how much was in the truck, then why mention it? For the sake of argument, let's just say you are correct. Let's pull a trailer at max tow capacity and also place more than one passenger in the truck. Technically you would not be overloaded BUT you will be towing at MAX capacity. Do you really want to be at MAX capacity for however long you are towing with your family and other precious cargo along for the ride?
...
This argument could be made for/against towing at the limit, regardless of whether there is excess capacity in the TV or not. To me, it's a separate discussion:
a. What are the limits/ratings?
b. Should one adopt some form of safety margin to those limits/ratings (and stay away from them).

I really don't want to muddy the waters by going on that tangent.

I think we have both stated our points, and we disagree with each other. And that's fine. That's what these forums are great for. Let people state different opinions, and the OP can sort it thru for themselves.
:chug:
 






This argument could be made for/against towing at the limit, regardless of whether there is excess capacity in the TV or not.
huh? Once again you have lost me. How can this argument be made for/against towing at the limit if you don't have excess capacity in the tow vehicle? The argument is moot if you stay under the limit.

a. What are the limits/ratings?
Those are determined by the industry, either through some third party, i.e. SAE, or proprietary. Stay within them.

b. Should one adopt some form of safety margin to those limits/ratings (and stay away from them).
This point is also made moot if you stay under the limits. You don't have to adopt your own safety limits if you stay within guidelines. Better yet, how about employing some common sense. If I'm going to be pulling a trailer cross country, maybe it would be a good idea to NOT be at max capacity. Seems a sensible self-imposed safety margin to me. But since you ask, there are some that belong to camp that apply "the 80% rule". That is for maximum safety, stability and as not to over tax a tow vehicle during towing, staying within 80% of tow rating is prudent to THEM. I personally think 80% is an arbitrary number. I prefer to gauge my tow vehicle's performance against conditions, load, distance, etc. I have a more than capable tow vehicle that is rated for 7100lbs towing but I would only tow that much under the right conditions because I know how my tow vehicle handles when I'm tugging my 5700lb rig.

I really don't want to muddy the waters by going on that tangent.
Why stop now? All you have done is muddy the waters by sharing your "standards" and opinions, i.e. let's use creative math to eek out ever ounce of capacity that we can, ignoring previously established standards and rules, ignore the extra passengers and cargo in the tow vehicle when you are at max tow rating, attributing comments to me that I never made, claiming that I clarify your point when actually I was just describing a trend in the auto industry, making light of the fact that other sources of authority other than an owner's manual might be out there to better understand the task of towing.

I think we have both stated our points, and we disagree with each other. And that's fine. That's what these forums are great for. Let people state different opinions, and the OP can sort it thru for themselves.
:chug:
There certainly have been a bevy of opinions shared here but in my case, I use FACTS whenever possible to dispute your OPINION. The FACT is you must deduct the weight of extra passengers and cargo in the tow vehicle from the max tow rating. In your OPINION, you think you can ignore this long standing industry standard because crossovers are "structure-limited" (whatever that means). Don't believe me? Maybe this sticky posted by our very own moderators will change your mind:
http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176988
This is your max towing capacity. Meaning all cargo, passengers and weight of trailer and contents included. Don't think you can load up with stuff in the truck and still tow this amount of weight on a trailer!
Oh wait that sticky only contains ratings for previous generations before Ford made Explorers crossovers (i.e. "structure-limited?"). Ok, so take a look at other auto makers websites and I'd be willing to bet that you would find cases where they state to deduct passengers/cargo from tow rating even for crossovers.

Oh wait, those only apply to other brands, not Ford? Ok, then pull up a Ford towing guide (i.e. http://www.fleet.ford.com/resources/ford/general/pdf/towingguides/14FLRVTTgde_Sep9.pdf) and it is peppered with references that include only a 150lb driver in the tow rating and to deduct additional passengers/cargo. Oh wait, that only applies to Ford's truck line? Ok, then look in the section entitled "Know your limits" and under "Maximum Loaded Trailer Weight" and it states to deduct additional passengers and gear.

Clearly, these are not my OPINIONS.

Oh wait, what about the owner's manual? Well, ya got me there. I guess despite all the FACTS that are square in my face, I'm left with just my OPINION after all.

Where are your sources?
 






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