supercharged 5.0 true fire 98 explorer sport

vroomzoomboom · July 27, 2015

my little update for the time being. have been busy trying to help [MENTION=102869]Dono[/MENTION] when i can with his truck. he need to get it back on the road because its his daily driver, and things have gone less the par for the guy. as well, the local shop that is doing the dyno tune for me has told me i should be good to go for around august 20th. i was grinning ear to ear when they told me they were going to get a guy by the name ed hohenberg (if you were a mustang guy back in the late 80's or early 90's you know this name, if not google him, or wolf performance) who lives up here to help with the tuning, but he couldnt do it till mid september, so they are going to have another tuner to help.
i am also now facing 2 upgrades to evil, both are needed, not wanted either. step back to last summer when i put the fuel rail kit on, it has a connector that goes from 8an to the factory ford fitting fuel line. i had a real ***** trying to get them on, and had to lightly sand the edge of the trickflow fitting for it to push into the factory fitting. 3 weeks ago i had smelt gas in the engine bay. after looking over all the connectors, that one felt wet. i unplugged it, and pushed it back it. problem solved, or so i thought. yesterday i had taken evil out for a quick ride, and when i got home i could smell gas again. when i popped the hood, that same connector had a drip on it. thanks to both [MENTION=102869]Dono[/MENTION] http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=393262&highlight=fuel+filter and [MENTION=119708]ahodges[/MENTION] http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=338061&page=14 for showing what they did for fuel line upgrades. both of them used 6an line and fittings. im going way overkill. im using 8an line and fittings for two reasons. the feed line going into the rails is 8an, so i wanted to keep it the same. the second is my sisters boyfriend is into cars as well, and had a length of 8an line that when stretched out reaches past both bumpers that has sat around for years, so he gave it to me, SCORE!
the parts for a 8an that i have are
Aeromotive 15118 - Aeromotive AN Quick-Connect Adapter Fitting (3/8th to 8an that goes from the sending unit to the line
Professional Products 10302 - Professional Products Competition Inline Fuel Filter (8an strait in and out)
Summit Racing SUM-220847B - Summit Racing AN to NPT Adapter Fittings x2 (1/2 inch to 8an fittings for the fuel filter)
Summit Racing SUM-220890B - Summit Racing Hose Ends x2 (fittings to go from fuel filter adapters to fuel line)
an there is also one 90 degree 8an fitting from the hose to the 3/8's sending unit adapter.
the next one [MENTION=81804]4pointslow[/MENTION] has been hammering at me over the last while when viewing my datalogs. he was seeing a major voltage drop when i when to WOT. i was trying to find the problem (if you look over the last few posts) but couldnt find anything. even comparing it to dons truck, which dropped but not as bad, and andys truck which was as bad as mine figured it was a thing with the 5L trucks. well, that problem really showed for me the other night, an i emphasize the word night. a life long buddy of mine was in from calgary (the same person whos place i crashed at when i went out there to buy brads truck, and he also went for a ride in that truck as well) was here for the weekend. he was never in the truck when i went supercharged, or put the m112, and stroker in as well. coming back from another friends place on friday night, he wanted to see how it went compared to when that motor was in the other truck. me being me i happily obliged said request. about a 1/4 of the way in second gear i started noticing all my dash lights start to dim and when i got off it, they went bright again. so i am now going to do the only thing that i can left to do, and thats do the big 3 upgrade (larger gauge wire for grounds, and alt. power). luck also has it that a friend of mine works at a stereo shop and does car audio installs as well, so he is going to price it all out for me, and hopefully i can get a break on that stuff and do it before it goes on the dyno as well. now if we can get over this africa like heat we have been having, i can work on this thing!

2000StreetRod · July 28, 2015

electrical power issue

It seems odd to me that there are electrical power issues at WOT. The fuel injection and ignition energy increase with engine speed should not be significant. If you have a return type fuel system, even if you have a high flow fuel pump its energy consumption should not increase significantly with engine speed. I don't know your existing cooling configuration. Do you have an electric cooling fan for the radiator that activates at WOT? Does your intercooler pump and fan that activates at boost? Do you have a stock 130 amp alternator? Does it spin at the same speed as stock or a different speed because of changing pulley ratios?

Possibilities I can think of for the voltage drop:
1. Serpentine belt slipping on the alternator pulley at boost.
2. Alternator output less than required for load:
a. Pulley spinning slower than stock due to ratio changes.
b. WOT activated load exceeds capacity of alternator.

Based on your symptoms I suspect that at WOT the alternator output voltage is dropping rapidly to the battery voltage. Increasing the current capacity of the wires may help some but I doubt that is the main problem. I suggest adding up all of the loads at WOT to see if they exceed the capacity of the alternator. When I tested my stock alternator under load I found that even though it was rated at 130 amps the output voltage did not drop significantly until the load was 150 amps. Electric motors draw a lot more current at start up than when up to speed. Maybe you have multiple motors starting at the same time but my guess is the belt is slipping.

vroomzoomboom · July 28, 2015

i can say no belt slip, its super tight. new belt, and tensioner as well. have had the alt tested, and its good. i have a 3 inch pulley, and the stock 2 inch pulley. i had to slow it down because the crank pulley is a inch bigger then stock. i do have electric fans, and a meth kit for the truck (meth is activated by boost). the other thing i forgot to mention was voltage bleeds down to 13.4 volts when driving normally as well.

2000StreetRod · July 28, 2015

pulley ratios

As I recall the stock crank pulley is about 6.25 in. dia. (please confirm). If the stock alternator pulley was 2 in. dia. then the ratio was 6.25/2 = 3.125:1
If your new crank pulley is 7.25 in. dia. and the new alternator pulley is 3 in. dia. then the ratio is 7.25/3 = 2.42:1
That means your alternator speed is only 77% (2.42/3.125) of stock.
The advantage of your new slower alternator speed is more engine power due to less drag. However, your electrical power requirements are greater than stock. Your PCM strategy has a table to adjust injector pulse width vs supply voltage and your fuel pressure regulator probably compensates for lower fuel pump output when the supply voltage drops. The wire upgrade is a good step since you have added current requirements. However, I suggest increasing your alternator speed back to stock if you retain the stock alternator. 7.25/3.125 = 2.32 in. dia. I don't know what sizes are available but I wouldn't go with bigger than 2.5 in. dia. which would provide a 2.9:1 ratio. I spent a lot of time upgrading my wire sizes and connectors. I would hate for you to do the same and not have that solve your problem.

Dono · July 28, 2015

Its a very strange phenomenon on the 5.0's that we are seeing.
Ahodges and myself also see voltage drops in our data logs. Not as Bad as Tims, but we are seeing it. Its very strange.

ahodges · July 28, 2015

I really don't know what to think about the voltage drop. No one ever pointed out the voltage drop on my truck during tuning (2 different places did tuning), but it is obvious is the datalogs that Tim and I looked at. I haven't noticed it being a problem during driving though.

4pointslow · July 28, 2015

Voltage drop off

I suspect that the voltage drop off may be purposely commanded by the pcm or by the regulator, since I saw it on all three of the vehicles mentioned.

How much drop off is another story. Tim's at different times was worse than others, he changed a lot of things though during testing including multiple alternators so one may have been a little worn out.

Thank you 2000streetrod for coming up with the rpm's of the alternator, that puts things into perspective. Finding a 2.32 pulley may prove to be difficult.

Dono and Ahodges have not reported any problems with charging system that I know of so maybe they can be considered the norm, if tim can get his to at least stay up where the others do and the lights no longer dim then that should be fine.

After that I would be more concerned about the TPS not staying pinned at wot unless that is not happening any more. In our tuning class where I work if the TPS doesn't stay pinned at wot we make them go back and redo the dyno run. Cant tune off of bad TPS data.

4pointslow · July 28, 2015

Voltage dropping

ahodges said:
I really don't know what to think about the voltage drop. No one ever pointed out the voltage drop on my truck during tuning (2 different places did tuning), but it is obvious is the datalogs that Tim and I looked at. I haven't noticed it being a problem during driving though.

I would not worry about it, looks to be a common thing on the 5.0.
Now about that TPS reading on both of your trucks.....

ahodges · July 28, 2015

On the datalogs I provided, the TPS wasn't staying at WOT? That is an old data log one the first go around of tuning so it may not be like that anymore, not sure. The shift points are the same every time though.

2000StreetRod · July 28, 2015

Voltage drop

4pointslow said:
I suspect that the voltage drop off may be purposely commanded by the pcm or by the regulator, since I saw it on all three of the vehicles mentioned. . .

I got curious and checked the log for one of my boosted pulls on the dyno. This was before I added a fan for the heat exchanger.

The vertical red bar represents about 3K rpm. As you can see the voltage drops as engine speed increases with the minimum voltage at 13.82. Initially I assumed that my belt was slipping on the alternator pulley. What's interesting is that the voltage is not engine load dependent but correlates just with engine speed. Belt slip doesn't explain the drop at closed throttle. I would have thought that the voltage would be less at 4K rpm WOT than 4K rpm closed throttle. This run was with my custom 240 amp alternator, large gauge wiring and connectors, and stock alternator and crank pulley sizes.

I can't think of any way the PCM could control the alternator or battery voltage. I suspect the voltage regulator may be involved but I didn't notice the drop during my alternator testing.

4pointslow · July 28, 2015

Voltage dropping

Some alternators are controlled by the PCM, it can pulse width modulate the field circuit/s to change the amount of charging. Some dodge vehicles used to look at a temperature sensor in one of the two "PCM's" that was right next to the battery, if it was hot it would not charge it as much. (dodge did not call them pcm's, one was the "Logic Module" and I forget what the other one was called.)

I looked at a wiring diagram and the wires do not go to the PCM so it is all done by the voltage regulator on Tim's truck. Again, the voltage dropping is probably not an issue, but the amount it was dropping to at times is what looked bad. And now the lights dimming too, maybe the newest pulley is causing that since it is spinning slower than stock was. Seeing the battery voltage drop below 12.6 was what had alarmed me, that means the battery was getting drained.

vroomzoomboom · July 28, 2015

so you guys got me thinking again as to what sizes those pulleys are. i just went out and measured them. the stock one (when you measure the lowest point inside the ribs) is 2 1/4. the other one i have looks to be 2 3/8. i cant measure the one thats on it right now, but i was told it is 3 inch. i know the guy i bought the crank pulley off had a 3 inch alt pulley that matched the crank when he bought them from asp. i know one other thing i thought was happening was that the under hood temps may have been overheating the alt as well (its also wonderful my air filter is there too...joy) so i pulled the inner fender liners off that clip on. i did help lower temps. my buddy got back to me on how much the wires, ring terminals, and battery clamps will cost. cheap. real cheap. not free, but no brainier to buy them and do it.
oh yea, [MENTION=111113]2000StreetRod[/MENTION], you are correct. the stock size crank pulley is 6 1/4. i also wanted to ask you what terminals did you use for you mega fuse at the power distribution box? to me it almost looks like ends you would find on a welder. not that that is bad, i just want to replace those as well.

2000StreetRod · July 29, 2015

battery junction box terminals

Many of those inexpensive battery post clamps are junk. The first ones I purchased on eBay looked pretty but the inside diameter was not tapered to match the battery post. When the clamp was installed on the post it only made contact at the wide edge of the post. The clamp was made of cast metal that broke when I tried to tighten it enough to made decent contact.

The battery junction box mount for the mega fuse is pathetically weak. I used stranded high flex copper cable to reduce the strain on the mount. I think I also reinforced the plastic with popsicle sticks epoxied to the bottom of the box. I reworked one of the stock connectors and reused it. For a quick summary of my installation: 240 amp 4G alternator upgrade For more information than you probably want: Alternator upgrade - 4G, 3G large or small case?

I checked my notes and my custom alternator has a newly designed load response voltage regulator. I have no details on how it is supposed to control output voltage vs load or rotational speed. When it was tested with 200 amp constant load the output voltage was still increasing as the rpm increased. The alternator/starter shop owner commented that it was more powerful than many of the alternators used on fire engines and ambulances.

CDW6212R · July 29, 2015

The 302 and SOHC 4.0 both use the same 4G alternator, the power terminal doesn't face the rear like 3G units.

I had a DB Alternators unit also that failed after a couple of years. My local shop I took it to was not impressed either. He said it wasn't special, and that there really aren't upgrade parts for the 4G like there are for the 3G.

My local expert also pointed out that the 4G's weakest link is the actual stator(?), the largest most expensive piece. When those fail(more commonly than other models), it's an expensive single part.

So I am also interested in that custom 4G you had made Dale. That's a good link to your thread, I had missed it. I upgraded my 99 SOHC system when I added some new loads(E-fan for one). My truck had the battery cable cut when I got it(wrecked), so I used one cable to run straight to the frame near the starter, and new cables I had made. I made an extra one for the alternator(10G) and it laid neatly with the stock wiring.

I agree about having the alternator tested, do that before worrying too much. The wiring upgrades are good insurance, do no harm and might improve the voltage. I think the small stock wires are near their limits of current, and that could cause some dimming with enough new loads.

gmanpaint · July 29, 2015

I installed a nice set of Knuconcepts terminals on mine, and I really like them. Super heavy duty, they are taller then the posts, and fit nice and tight from top to bottom.

You have to change the connectors on the wires to loop ends of some sort. I used a few of the Knuconcepts connectors, and man, are they heavy duty. You really get what you pay for with these. I got everything off of Amazon. Just choose Pos or Neg blocks, and the proper wire gauge you need for the connectors,

A post I made in my registry with pics of the terminals.

http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3385146&postcount=1639

bats · July 30, 2015

Yay for AN fittings. I still have all the pieces to convert the Bronco over to them. The Ford specific ends that go into the fuel pump side are like $30 each, at least for the first gens. They do look pretty though. I buggered one of the ends and just used a couple more hose clamps.

gman, those terminals are beefy. Going to go order a set. There was a guy on another truck site that made custom aluminum machined terminals that were drilled for what ever wire gauges you needed and held in with machine screws. bugman was his username I believe but can't seem to find the bookmark.

vroomzoomboom · August 1, 2015

fuel lines done. got all the (or i thought) all the connectors yesterday. started to drain the tank by running the pump and unhooking the line that goes to the fuel rall (thanks john btw). i started laying everything out to find the speed shop gave me one wrong connector. when i figured that out it was around 7pm. try and find someone open at that time on a friday of a long weekend. i got lucky and found one, and he even waited around for me for a haft hour after he closed (even told him i would pay double lol). then i started pulling the tank down. i have done it twice and each time i tried, i had to unbolt the sending unit from the tank because i couldnt get one line off. well, that happen to be the feed line.....2 hours later tank was down. went back out today and finished it. besides a small leak which was one fitting that needed a little extra grunt at the filter, cant see any leaks or smell any gas. i will go back outside later now that i cooled off and start the big 3. and now for your viewing pleasure....

stock

stock compared to steel braided

this is the adapter needed to go to 3/8 to 8 AN. BTW, you will need a union as well. i found that out the hard way.

and new lines

btw, if anyone reading this in the future and they are doing this to a sport, you can get away with 65 inches of line from the sending unit to the fuel filter. i forgot to measure how much from the filter to the fuel rails, but that will also depend on how you route things up top as well.

4pointslow · August 1, 2015

Fuel Lines

Looks very nice!
Now you wont have that old fuel line as a restriction.
How long is that filter supposed to be good for? I would assume it would need more attention since it looks to have a smaller surface area.

CDW6212R · August 1, 2015

Well done Tim.

I know how tough some of that is, I had to replace my main fuel line from the tank to the filter back in January. I got the used line from Karl here, because my old line had at least one of the rear metal clips buggered in it. I had to fight it to release twice before, and the flexible line near it was very weak from past owners. I was afraid that the next time the line(plastic) would leak there where it had been pulled on so much.

I like the fuel line connections better which don't require a special tool. The plastic locking clips should be plenty, which were the first type on early EFI cars.

CDW6212R · August 1, 2015

Also, how do you like that filter? Is it big enough do you think, in capacity; how long do you go between cleaning it etc?

supercharged 5.0 true fire 98 explorer sport

vroomzoomboom

Elite Canuck STOCK SUCKS!

2000StreetRod

vroomzoomboom

Elite Canuck STOCK SUCKS!

2000StreetRod

Dono

04 GT

ahodges

4pointslow

Explorer Torture Tester

4pointslow

Explorer Torture Tester

ahodges

2000StreetRod

4pointslow

Explorer Torture Tester

vroomzoomboom

Elite Canuck STOCK SUCKS!

2000StreetRod

CDW6212R

Hauls the mail.

gmanpaint

It's Always Something!

bats

vroomzoomboom

Elite Canuck STOCK SUCKS!

4pointslow

Explorer Torture Tester

CDW6212R

Hauls the mail.

CDW6212R

Hauls the mail.

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