97 Mountaineer v8 tranny o/d shift rough

jackehendrix · 01-12-2005, 06:57 PM

I don't know what tranny I have. I don't know much of anything actually, but I started feeling and hearing a "shudder" when shifting into (and I think out of) overdrive. If I turn the o/d switch off, it doesn't happen. I did tow a trailer load of wood (very heavy) recently and I did not know to turn off the o/d.
Help!

Bill Kemp · 01-12-2005, 07:26 PM

I would start out by changing the trans. filter. This will get about five new quarts of fluid into the trans. and should cure your problem. If not there is a lot more you can do but hopefully you wont need to go any further.
Due to the age of the trans. I would not suggest a flush. Just a filter change.

jackehendrix · 01-12-2005, 07:45 PM

I should have mentioned. I had the filter and all fluid (flush) changed. It did seem to help, but still a little noise and shift roughness into o/d.

V8Exploder · 01-12-2005, 10:20 PM

mine has a smilar problem, I have a really hard downshift from o/d coming to a stop. If I do it manually, its not bad, but when I get to the bottom of an offramp it shakes the whole car and makes a huge "THUD", sometimes worse than other but I just changed the filter and fluid and added some lubeguard trans additive and it cleaned up the jolt a little bit, but its still noticable. I dont know what can cause that problem, I just hope it doesnt get any worse. I too tow, I have a 2k lb boat but the V8 and trans can handle that no problem, I'm just keeping my fingers crossed

Glacier991 · 01-12-2005, 10:22 PM

BTW you have a 4R70W. Might try a bottle of Lubegard... any transmission supply house will have it.

V8Exploder · 01-12-2005, 10:37 PM

Napa has it ! It tightened up my shifts and like I said helped lighten up the thud, it worth a shot !

Glacier991 · 01-12-2005, 11:15 PM

Ok Aaron when do we get the picture studded thread on your effort !???? I know you did one....

*V8BoatBuilder* · 01-12-2005, 11:30 PM

Haha Chris, I just stumbled onto this thread

jackehendrix,

I installed a Baumann engineering shift kit into my 1997 4R70W, and had the valve body apart. The thread (with pics) can be seen here: http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/...d.php?t=123942

One of the modifications that Baumann suggests to add is a redesigned Torque Converter engagement valve. Check out: http://www.baumannengineering.com/aodecat.htm and scroll down to the "Bypass Clutch Control Valve for AOD-E / 4R70W Transmissions" as taken from Baumann's website:

"This precision replacement valve and orificed sleeve are manufactured by Sonnax utilizing superior construction and materials. These redesigned components help to prevent and eliminate torque converter clutch slip and shudder concerns in AOD-E and 4R70W transmissions. This valve is recommended for any AOD-E or 4R70W transmission that has higher mileage or has experienced torque converter clutch problems."

It is installed in the valve body, and does not require removing the entire transmission. My torque converter was not having any difficulty enaging or disengaging, but I installed the valve as cheap insurance while the valve body was sitting on my bench.

It might also be worth calling Baumann up, they know a ton about modding the 4R70W, and could possibly recommend other parts/mods.

A simple pan drop removes about 4-5 quarts of ATF from the system. If you do drop the valve body, you will take out about 12 quarts of ATF from the system. That's most of it. I use Castol Mercon V, with good results. Mercon V is more expensive than DexronIII/Mercon, but the two are NOT compatible, and the 4R70W needs the MerconV.

Here's a tip, the standard FRAM trans filter, sold at many autoparts stores is the actuall OEM filter. Fram doesn't make them, they just re-sell them. One of the reasons, IMO, that flushes kill transmissions, is that they don't change the filter. Instead, the new, detergent laiden, clean fluid knocks gunk loose, and cloggs the filter and valve orificies. They're tiny. Keeping that filter clean is a top priority. I installed an external filter.

If you remove the valve body, get yourself a torque wrench. Ask us here, and I'll post the torque specs and sequence for the bolts. It matters. You'll also need valve body gaskets.

Glacier991 · 01-13-2005, 12:14 AM

I am anxious to do a 4R70W upgraded rebuild.... anyone on the left coast who wants to be the guinea pig PM me!

ps. Aaron.. There is an old adage.... "He do not tootheth his horn, the same shall not be tooted". Great thread btw.

*V8BoatBuilder* · 01-13-2005, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glacier991

I am anxious to do a 4R70W upgraded rebuild.... anyone on the left coast who wants to be the guinea pig PM me!

ps. Aaron.. There is an old adage.... "He do not tootheth his horn, the same shall not be tooted". Great thread btw.

Man... all the cool kids play next to the pacific ocean. I have a feeling my 4R70W will be out within the year to install the Advance Adapters kit.

jackehendrix · 01-13-2005, 07:01 AM

You guys are great. It has been a good truck and I actually like working on it, but I don't know what I am doing. I think that I will attempt the valve body removale and do the modifications suggested. I will look at the threads and call Baumann before I start. Any other tips will also be appreciated.

I mainly know real estate, so email me if you need advise in that arena.

97BlackX5.0 · 01-13-2005, 01:51 PM

just curious but when they did the flush what fluid did they put back in ... i remember someone telling me a while ago that they updated all 4r70w's to mercon V fluid to eliminate precisely the shudder your talkinga bout.... when they flushed it they could have used regular mercon and not the merconV as not alot of people know about the update... so you might be feeling the effects of a different fluid

jackehendrix · 01-13-2005, 03:13 PM

I just pulled the invoice and it reads 14 quarts Dextron III /Mercon ATF. As I remeber the conversation when I dropped it off the Technician (if that is the right term) asked me whether I used Dextron III or Mercon. I couldn't answer so as he was raising the hood, he said "it doesn't really matter, cause Mercon is just Dextron with an additive which we will add it if it calls for Mercon." I could be mistaken about the above fluid names. You might have to change the order of the proper names in the above quote and or substitute completely different names (or roman numerals). I will call them before I do anything and try to pin them down. If you can shed any more light on the different types of fluid and what I should do to be sure that I get the right type in there I would be thankful.

*V8BoatBuilder* · 01-13-2005, 03:17 PM

Your transmission needs Synthetic Mercon V. Mercon and Dexron III are very different. If they put in the wrong fluid, make them change it. MerconV is more expensive, so you might have to pay. I'd argue it though - they screwed up.

Unless there is some magical new additive, you CANNOT turn Mercon into Mercon V.

V8Exploder · 01-13-2005, 05:02 PM

Sorry, I didnt take any pictures on my fluid and filter change, and I wish I could be more helpful on the problem, I guess the best I can do is make sure he is not the only one with a mickey mouse tranny. And I dont get the tooting horn adage....

jackehendrix · 01-13-2005, 05:53 PM

http://www.lubegard.com/automotive/i...ard_Poster.pdf
Lubegard is claiming to enhance DEXRON/MERCON ATF to provide a MERCON V type ATF.

*V8BoatBuilder* · 01-13-2005, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackehendrix

http://www.lubegard.com/automotive/i...ard_Poster.pdf
Lubegard is claiming to enhance DEXRON/MERCON ATF to provide a MERCON V type ATF.

Cool. Had no idea that existed.

mvoeller · 01-13-2005, 06:52 PM

Some of the earlier 97 4R70W trannys used regular mercon fluid, such as my 97 Ford explorer. That's what it calls for on the dipstick and in the manual. But I think that you can switch it over to the mercon V fluid.

97BlackX5.0 · 01-13-2005, 06:53 PM

i was told the difference between mercon and mercon V is it is part synthetic and contains some different additives... it could be that adding a bottle to your tranny to update the mercon to mercon v could be suffiecient.... i personally am running regular mercon right now in mine and have not had any problems but am planning on switching to merconv when i change it again.... (this was before i knew about the tsb)...

97BlackX5.0 · 01-13-2005, 06:55 PM

if somone could source the tsb number it would probably help alot of people because this seems to be coming up an awful lot

01-12-2005, 06:57 PM	#1
jackehendrix Wannabe Elite Explorer birmingham, al '97 mountaineer Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7 Vehicle Specs (Original Poster)	97 Mountaineer v8 tranny o/d shift rough I don't know what tranny I have. I don't know much of anything actually, but I started feeling and hearing a "shudder" when shifting into (and I think out of) overdrive. If I turn the o/d switch off, it doesn't happen. I did tow a trailer load of wood (very heavy) recently and I did not know to turn off the o/d. Help!

01-12-2005, 07:26 PM	#2
Bill Kemp Elite Moderator Emeritus Greenville, MI 98 Mountaineer 5.0 AWD Join Date: Apr 2000 Posts: 5,211 Vehicle Specs	I would start out by changing the trans. filter. This will get about five new quarts of fluid into the trans. and should cure your problem. If not there is a lot more you can do but hopefully you wont need to go any further. Due to the age of the trans. I would not suggest a flush. Just a filter change. __________________ Bill Kemp Mods to come..... 07 Lincoln MKX Clones are people two.

01-12-2005, 11:30 PM	#8
V8BoatBuilder Transplanted Bostonian East Brunswick, NJ 97 Mountaineer V8 4x4 Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 3,429 Vehicle Specs	Haha Chris, I just stumbled onto this thread jackehendrix, I installed a Baumann engineering shift kit into my 1997 4R70W, and had the valve body apart. The thread (with pics) can be seen here: http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/...d.php?t=123942 One of the modifications that Baumann suggests to add is a redesigned Torque Converter engagement valve. Check out: http://www.baumannengineering.com/aodecat.htm and scroll down to the "Bypass Clutch Control Valve for AOD-E / 4R70W Transmissions" as taken from Baumann's website: "This precision replacement valve and orificed sleeve are manufactured by Sonnax utilizing superior construction and materials. These redesigned components help to prevent and eliminate torque converter clutch slip and shudder concerns in AOD-E and 4R70W transmissions. This valve is recommended for any AOD-E or 4R70W transmission that has higher mileage or has experienced torque converter clutch problems." It is installed in the valve body, and does not require removing the entire transmission. My torque converter was not having any difficulty enaging or disengaging, but I installed the valve as cheap insurance while the valve body was sitting on my bench. It might also be worth calling Baumann up, they know a ton about modding the 4R70W, and could possibly recommend other parts/mods. A simple pan drop removes about 4-5 quarts of ATF from the system. If you do drop the valve body, you will take out about 12 quarts of ATF from the system. That's most of it. I use Castol Mercon V, with good results. Mercon V is more expensive than DexronIII/Mercon, but the two are NOT compatible, and the 4R70W needs the MerconV. Here's a tip, the standard FRAM trans filter, sold at many autoparts stores is the actuall OEM filter. Fram doesn't make them, they just re-sell them. One of the reasons, IMO, that flushes kill transmissions, is that they don't change the filter. Instead, the new, detergent laiden, clean fluid knocks gunk loose, and cloggs the filter and valve orificies. They're tiny. Keeping that filter clean is a top priority. I installed an external filter. If you remove the valve body, get yourself a torque wrench. Ask us here, and I'll post the torque specs and sequence for the bolts. It matters. You'll also need valve body gaskets. __________________ -Aaron Off Road: 97' Mountaineer: V8, 4x4, 4.56s, 4" Superlift, SOA, TrXus 33x12.5 - Under The Knife Work: 00' Ranger 4cyl 5spd, 02' Ford E250 5.4 On Road: 2006 VW Jetta TDI/6spd DSG. Fill it with diesel, please. Octopus Yachts, LLC Engineered Marine Electrical Systems

01-13-2005, 07:01 AM	#11
jackehendrix Wannabe Elite Explorer birmingham, al '97 mountaineer Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7 Vehicle Specs (Original Poster)	Accolades You guys are great. It has been a good truck and I actually like working on it, but I don't know what I am doing. I think that I will attempt the valve body removale and do the modifications suggested. I will look at the threads and call Baumann before I start. Any other tips will also be appreciated. I mainly know real estate, so email me if you need advise in that arena.

01-13-2005, 01:51 PM	#12
97BlackX5.0 Wannabe Elite Explorer Scipio, Indiana 97 X XLT AWD Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 624 Vehicle Specs	just curious but when they did the flush what fluid did they put back in ... i remember someone telling me a while ago that they updated all 4r70w's to mercon V fluid to eliminate precisely the shudder your talkinga bout.... when they flushed it they could have used regular mercon and not the merconV as not alot of people know about the update... so you might be feeling the effects of a different fluid __________________ 97 5.0 v8 Black AWD 31x10.5 Goodyear RT/S MAC air intake Borla Cat Back Exhaust 170,000 and still goin strong with lots of lovin

01-12-2005, 07:45 PM	#3
jackehendrix Wannabe Elite Explorer birmingham, al '97 mountaineer Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7 Vehicle Specs (Original Poster)	I should have mentioned. I had the filter and all fluid (flush) changed. It did seem to help, but still a little noise and shift roughness into o/d.

01-12-2005, 10:20 PM	#4
V8Exploder Wannabe Elite Explorer Los Angeles CA 96 XLT V8 Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 94 Vehicle Specs	mine has a smilar problem, I have a really hard downshift from o/d coming to a stop. If I do it manually, its not bad, but when I get to the bottom of an offramp it shakes the whole car and makes a huge "THUD", sometimes worse than other but I just changed the filter and fluid and added some lubeguard trans additive and it cleaned up the jolt a little bit, but its still noticable. I dont know what can cause that problem, I just hope it doesnt get any worse. I too tow, I have a 2k lb boat but the V8 and trans can handle that no problem, I'm just keeping my fingers crossed

01-12-2005, 10:22 PM	#5
Glacier991 EF Tranny Guru Sacramento, CA 95827 1992 XLT Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 9,823 Vehicle Specs	BTW you have a 4R70W. Might try a bottle of Lubegard... any transmission supply house will have it.

01-12-2005, 10:37 PM	#6
V8Exploder Wannabe Elite Explorer Los Angeles CA 96 XLT V8 Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 94 Vehicle Specs	Napa has it ! It tightened up my shifts and like I said helped lighten up the thud, it worth a shot !

01-12-2005, 11:15 PM	#7
Glacier991 EF Tranny Guru Sacramento, CA 95827 1992 XLT Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 9,823 Vehicle Specs	Ok Aaron when do we get the picture studded thread on your effort !???? I know you did one....

01-13-2005, 12:14 AM	#9
Glacier991 EF Tranny Guru Sacramento, CA 95827 1992 XLT Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 9,823 Vehicle Specs	I am anxious to do a 4R70W upgraded rebuild.... anyone on the left coast who wants to be the guinea pig PM me! ps. Aaron.. There is an old adage.... "He do not tootheth his horn, the same shall not be tooted". Great thread btw.

01-13-2005, 03:13 PM	#13
jackehendrix Wannabe Elite Explorer birmingham, al '97 mountaineer Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7 Vehicle Specs (Original Poster)	Mercon III vs Mercon V vs Dextron III I just pulled the invoice and it reads 14 quarts Dextron III /Mercon ATF. As I remeber the conversation when I dropped it off the Technician (if that is the right term) asked me whether I used Dextron III or Mercon. I couldn't answer so as he was raising the hood, he said "it doesn't really matter, cause Mercon is just Dextron with an additive which we will add it if it calls for Mercon." I could be mistaken about the above fluid names. You might have to change the order of the proper names in the above quote and or substitute completely different names (or roman numerals). I will call them before I do anything and try to pin them down. If you can shed any more light on the different types of fluid and what I should do to be sure that I get the right type in there I would be thankful.

01-13-2005, 03:17 PM	#14
V8BoatBuilder Transplanted Bostonian East Brunswick, NJ 97 Mountaineer V8 4x4 Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 3,429 Vehicle Specs	Your transmission needs Synthetic Mercon V. Mercon and Dexron III are very different. If they put in the wrong fluid, make them change it. MerconV is more expensive, so you might have to pay. I'd argue it though - they screwed up. Unless there is some magical new additive, you CANNOT turn Mercon into Mercon V. __________________ -Aaron Off Road: 97' Mountaineer: V8, 4x4, 4.56s, 4" Superlift, SOA, TrXus 33x12.5 - Under The Knife Work: 00' Ranger 4cyl 5spd, 02' Ford E250 5.4 On Road: 2006 VW Jetta TDI/6spd DSG. Fill it with diesel, please. Octopus Yachts, LLC Engineered Marine Electrical Systems

01-13-2005, 05:02 PM	#15
V8Exploder Wannabe Elite Explorer Los Angeles CA 96 XLT V8 Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 94 Vehicle Specs	Sorry, I didnt take any pictures on my fluid and filter change, and I wish I could be more helpful on the problem, I guess the best I can do is make sure he is not the only one with a mickey mouse tranny. And I dont get the tooting horn adage....

01-13-2005, 05:53 PM	#16
jackehendrix Wannabe Elite Explorer birmingham, al '97 mountaineer Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7 Vehicle Specs (Original Poster)	http://www.lubegard.com/automotive/i...ard_Poster.pdf Lubegard is claiming to enhance DEXRON/MERCON ATF to provide a MERCON V type ATF.

01-13-2005, 06:52 PM	#18
mvoeller Wannabe Elite Explorer Grand Forks 97 AWD 5.0 Explorer Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 14 Vehicle Specs	Some of the earlier 97 4R70W trannys used regular mercon fluid, such as my 97 Ford explorer. That's what it calls for on the dipstick and in the manual. But I think that you can switch it over to the mercon V fluid.

01-13-2005, 06:53 PM	#19
97BlackX5.0 Wannabe Elite Explorer Scipio, Indiana 97 X XLT AWD Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 624 Vehicle Specs	i was told the difference between mercon and mercon V is it is part synthetic and contains some different additives... it could be that adding a bottle to your tranny to update the mercon to mercon v could be suffiecient.... i personally am running regular mercon right now in mine and have not had any problems but am planning on switching to merconv when i change it again.... (this was before i knew about the tsb)... __________________ 97 5.0 v8 Black AWD 31x10.5 Goodyear RT/S MAC air intake Borla Cat Back Exhaust 170,000 and still goin strong with lots of lovin

01-13-2005, 06:55 PM	#20
97BlackX5.0 Wannabe Elite Explorer Scipio, Indiana 97 X XLT AWD Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 624 Vehicle Specs	if somone could source the tsb number it would probably help alot of people because this seems to be coming up an awful lot __________________ 97 5.0 v8 Black AWD 31x10.5 Goodyear RT/S MAC air intake Borla Cat Back Exhaust 170,000 and still goin strong with lots of lovin