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Explorer & Ranger Transmissions, Transfer Cases, & Differentials Transmissions, Transfer Cases. A4LD, 4R70W, 4R44E, 4R55E, 5R44E, 5R55E, M5OD, BW 1354, Control Trac, GEM, AWD. Ford 8.8", Dana 35

New 6 Speed Automatic Transmission

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Old 10-07-2005, 01:28 PM   #1
Glacier991
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New 6 Speed Automatic Transmission

Spindlecone had PM'd me and asked if I had heard about this. I had recently done a little research because I was curious where the industry was in developing a continuously variable transmission (CVT) and ran across this issue. Here's the skinny on what I know so far.

When FORD came out with the FORD 500 and the Fusion, they used a 6 speed made by the Japanese company Aisan. In the background, FORD and GM had been collaborating on an entirely new RWD 6 speed, to be called the 6R. (A front wheel 6F is also in the works.) They together had invested a reported 750 mil into the project. (See why not a lot of new auto trannies are being designed and old ones tweaked instead?). Meanwhile the German company ZF, who had produced a transmission for FORD before, was also coming on the market with their own 6 speed. As it turns out, it also appears that ZF will be first to market with a CVT as well.

Why 6 speed? The marketing answer will say smoother shifts, better fuel economy etc, but it all comes down to fuel economy... 4 to 8% reportedly.

I'm really curious about CVT's but so far there isn't a lot of info out there. When you think CVT, think snowmobile or go kart, the twin sheave pulley they use provides them with a CVT. Wonder how they will do it in automotive transmissions?

Anyway, rather than reply directly to you Spindlecone I thought I'd post this here on the open board for those who might find it of interest.

Here is the only pic I can find of the 6R

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Old 10-07-2005, 01:37 PM   #2
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Great info, thx Chris, hope it will hold up using the 3 valve 4.6 in the new sporttrac next yr
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Old 10-07-2005, 02:31 PM   #3
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ive worked on this kind of torque converters before, with the examples you stated... snowmobiles and go-karts

but... belt wear. How often do you think you're going to have to pop open one of these trannys to replace belts? or is it not belt driven?




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Old 10-07-2005, 02:59 PM   #4
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that thing pictured fits in a car?




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Old 10-07-2005, 03:24 PM   #5
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Creager, my question exactly, but as to the CVT's - the transmission pictured is NOT CVT but a 6 speed. That is why I am curious how they plan to effectuate a CVT for automobiles - I am only familiar with the belt version..... and 410, I thought the same thing as you but looking more closely I think it's the perspective in that pic, the trannie is much closer to you than the guys are..... and so that it is much smaller than it looks. Sure hope so anyway!
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Old 10-19-2005, 05:25 AM   #6
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I was talking with a new member. His folks have a 2006 Ford 500 with the CVT. I have asked him to post here about what it is like to drive. This forum needs to stay on top of the newer transmissions coming our way... like the 6 speed and CVT.
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Old 10-19-2005, 12:56 PM   #7
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Car and driver said you don't feel anytype of "shifting" with the CVT in the 500. Very smooth, how durable, I have no idea.




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Old 10-19-2005, 01:40 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00XLS
Car and driver said you don't feel anytype of "shifting" with the CVT in the 500. Very smooth, how durable, I have no idea.
Do a couple of neutral drops and see what happens It'll be covered under warranty. Try a few brake stands first though.




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Old 12-13-2005, 03:32 AM   #9
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I have found some pics of this beast's innards.... but cannot copy them here. It is like a snowmobile with a twin sheave pulley. Apparently the pulley is machined to a super smoothness.

How it all works I am still investigating but I did see a planetary setup and it does have a torque converter. Oh the fuel economy? supposedly -8% from a manual. How it stacks up the automatics I do not yet know.... So... the jury is till out.

Someone find me a wrecked Ford500 and I'll do a Diary! <g>
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Old 12-13-2005, 03:53 PM   #10
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Nissan has been using the CVT style of trans for a dew years now (I am guessing 2-3). From there web site it looks to be like a giant snowmobile clutch with a steel belt not a rubber one. A lady at work has a Murano and says it is really nice to drive, also compairs it to a powerglide trans due to the wide gear ratio of the powerglide.

Eric




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Old 12-13-2005, 04:26 PM   #11
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Now, i thought that Allison had a type of CVT a few years ago. I remember an article in a magazine about that. It, in stead of using a belt system used more like a set of ropes to transfer the power. I wish i could remember where i had seen that though, as i can't remember the specifics.
-Glacier, is the improvement over a manual tranny 8% or is it a loss of 8%? You have it written as -8%, as in negative. Just curious.




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Old 12-13-2005, 05:03 PM   #12
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CV Transmissions in cars have been around a while now. Honda had one ~10 years ago i think. The standard design consists of two V shaped pulleys with a steel chain between them. The pulleys change how wide the V is, inversly of each other, so the chain rides at a different depth, which changes the ratio. Then its all up to the programming as to how it performs. Idealy it should keep the engine at a constant RPM, where the RPM is dependant on how hard you are on the gas, thus using the most efficient part of the power band depending on load. However I know the first Honda CVT had a few settings: performance (higher RPMs), economy (lower RPMs), and one that made the transmission feel like a 'normal' automatic, shifting through virtual gears.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glacier991
Here is the only pic I can find of the 6R
I hope thats a scale model




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Old 12-13-2005, 05:15 PM   #13
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From what I know about the the new tranny (very little) it is a virtual tranny, alot can be modified at the flip of a switch.
Is BMW using this tech in the new high end models?
And yes pls glacier, what are the power train loss numbers, even 8% would be killer compared to approx 20 with the standard auto
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Old 12-13-2005, 05:22 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spindlecone
From what I know about the the new tranny (very little) it is a virtual tranny, alot can be modified at the flip of a switch.
Is BMW using this tech in the new high end models?
And yes pls glacier, what are the power train loss numbers, even 8% would be killer compared to approx 20 with the standard auto
BMW for the most part is using the "new" paddle shifting manual/auto trannys in their high end cars. I don't even think that they have devloped a CV tranny. I could be wrong on that though.




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Old 12-14-2005, 02:23 AM   #15
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I'm not exactly sure, but I think the first CVT was in the 3 cylinder Subaru Justy. It had a pulley system similar to the shape of an ice cream cone, and an electronic/magnetic torque converter with iron particles. When a magnetic field was present, all of the particles would magnetize, and become engaged. This is similar to a hydraulic torque converter when the TCC solenoid was energized. One good article with information on CVTs is: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/cvt.htm/printable. According to the information here, it says that Da Vinci first had the idea for a CVT over 500 years ago!
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Old 12-14-2005, 02:48 AM   #16
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I did a search on CVT, and found this website that is dedicated to CVT transmissions: http://cvt.com.sapo.pt/toc_en.htm. It has a lot of useful information.
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Old 01-02-2006, 02:40 AM   #17
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Here is an article that talks about CVTs, and a 7 speed automatic: http://www.popsci.com/popsci/automot...cbccdrcrd.html. I was surprised to see that they actually have a working 7 speed already in production. I was wondering what ratio the car companies that manufacture CVT transmissions consider their transmissions to have. Would one CVT be analogous to a 6 speed, while another type be like a 10 speed? I know the size of the toroid shapes with the position of the drive belt/chain determine the actual ratio of the gear. They are never actually considered locked into a specific gear, because the chain is always moving in proportion to the rpms, and vehicle's speed.

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Old 01-02-2006, 03:11 PM   #18
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You are correct. There is not a ratio, other than a final drive ratio, in a CVT.
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