Ford reducing FFV models for '08??!?

E.B. Cornburner · 09-26-2007, 03:28 PM

I just checked the '08 lineup of FFVs, and it seems to be getting smaller and smaller every year! Ford, for example, has only THREE (well, technically two) FFVs for the '08 model year...The F150, and the Crown Victoria/Grand Marquis. That's it??!?
GM also seems to have scaled down on their models, where Chrysler seems to have stayed the same from what I could quickly discern.

I can't believe Ford though...From having the first real FFV for the masses, the Taurus, to expanding their lineup quite nicely, to now having only one car (that nobody really wants) and one truck available as a FFV just blows me away. I wonder which big oil company is behind that? I even emailed Ford Motor Company's consumer relations and got this reply:

From time to time, vehicle models are added, deleted or modified. Decisions to make these changes take into account factors such as market trends, customer demands, engineering advances, and dealership input.

The Customer Relationship Center is unaware of changes that our Engineering and Design Team may be making and the specific reasons that the changes may be made in the future. This type of information is considered confidential until the appropriate media statement is released.

How stupid is that??!?

All I know is I'm going to be watching the whole automotive industry in regards to things like this, and ultimately the one that seems to be maintaining their lineup will get my money on another vehicle purchase. A couple years ago, Ford looked like they were really going hard and heavy in the FFV market and I based my purchase accordingly since I figured they'd keep continually improving the technology, etc. Since that happened, every year a few more models get axed to become dedicated gas-burners once again.
Chrysler is starting to look more and more attractive in this aspect now, with a few trucks, cars, minivans and SUVs available with FFV options. But there's something quite stupid about them too...Certain states aren't allowing them! CA, RI, MA, and a few others. What??!? E85 burns cleaner than gasoline! These are the same states that aren't allowing new diesel cars to be sold there either.

The whole thing with Ford just gets my blood boiling. You know Big Oil is controlling that...It's as obvious as the nose on your face. even though Ford seems to be in denial about the whole thing.

I have a feeling that my next vehicle is going to be something other than another Ford.

steventadams · 09-26-2007, 03:50 PM

yea its true that the FFV is a good thing... but it makes sense that the options for the flex fuel cars is going to start to dwindle. at first everyone wanted to be "part of the solution" and so bought the cars the burned cleaner. but then these people realized it isnt as easy to get ethanol as it as gas and society today is about convenience. and of course big oil has something to do with it. big oil companies are dependent on us buying gasoline and other petroleum products, so they sure as hell arent going to start selling an alternative to their cash cow. and not many people are going to open up dedicated ethanol stations because there arent enough FFV out there to make that a financially sound investment.
businesses arent going to start selling ethanol until there are enough FFV on the road to make a profit and people arent going to buy FFV until its convenient to get ethanol. which means we are at a standstill. so it doesnt make sense for Ford to make more FFV because it costs more (im assuming it costs more to produce, not entirely sure though) when people arent going to buy enough of them anyway

E.B. Cornburner · 09-26-2007, 05:57 PM

In all reality, it doesn't cost them more to produce a FFV than a dedicated gas-burner. Ford doesn't use any additional sensors in the fuel system to read the alcohol content...They rely on O2 activity to "guesstimate" the type of fuel in the tank when the vehicle is restarted after a fill-up. It's mostly a difference in PCM calibration than it is any one component or system costing more than it would on a gasser.
So, that being said...Why not make them all FFV? Every single car and light truck built could easily be FFV for little to no additional cost, and the owners could choose which fuel to run at their discretion. If it even cost $100 more on the retail end to have a FFV, that could be built into the MSRP and most people would never even know it. People pay more than that for a paint sealant package which does them little to no good 6 months later, so I can't see why it'd be a big deal at all.
Just because a vehicle is capable of running E85 doesn't mean that the people have to use it...I know lots of people around me that own FFVs and never run E85 in them. Mainly for the reason you brought out...Convenience. Another small handful are not educated correctly and believe that ethanol will harm their vehicle, even though it's designed to use it.

09-26-2007, 03:28 PM	#1
E.B. Cornburner Wannabe Elite Explorer Oshkosh, WI 2004 Eddie Bauer Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,146 Vehicle Specs (Original Poster)	Ford reducing FFV models for '08??!? I just checked the '08 lineup of FFVs, and it seems to be getting smaller and smaller every year! Ford, for example, has only THREE (well, technically two) FFVs for the '08 model year...The F150, and the Crown Victoria/Grand Marquis. That's it??!? GM also seems to have scaled down on their models, where Chrysler seems to have stayed the same from what I could quickly discern. I can't believe Ford though...From having the first real FFV for the masses, the Taurus, to expanding their lineup quite nicely, to now having only one car (that nobody really wants) and one truck available as a FFV just blows me away. I wonder which big oil company is behind that? I even emailed Ford Motor Company's consumer relations and got this reply: From time to time, vehicle models are added, deleted or modified. Decisions to make these changes take into account factors such as market trends, customer demands, engineering advances, and dealership input. The Customer Relationship Center is unaware of changes that our Engineering and Design Team may be making and the specific reasons that the changes may be made in the future. This type of information is considered confidential until the appropriate media statement is released. How stupid is that??!? All I know is I'm going to be watching the whole automotive industry in regards to things like this, and ultimately the one that seems to be maintaining their lineup will get my money on another vehicle purchase. A couple years ago, Ford looked like they were really going hard and heavy in the FFV market and I based my purchase accordingly since I figured they'd keep continually improving the technology, etc. Since that happened, every year a few more models get axed to become dedicated gas-burners once again. Chrysler is starting to look more and more attractive in this aspect now, with a few trucks, cars, minivans and SUVs available with FFV options. But there's something quite stupid about them too...Certain states aren't allowing them! CA, RI, MA, and a few others. What??!? E85 burns cleaner than gasoline! These are the same states that aren't allowing new diesel cars to be sold there either. The whole thing with Ford just gets my blood boiling. You know Big Oil is controlling that...It's as obvious as the nose on your face. even though Ford seems to be in denial about the whole thing. I have a feeling that my next vehicle is going to be something other than another Ford. __________________ Mike 2004 Explorer Eddie Bauer 4.0 SOHC FFV Showroom clean, showroom stock.

09-26-2007, 03:50 PM	#2
steventadams Wannabe Elite Explorer New Jersey 2001 Sport Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 976 Vehicle Specs	yea its true that the FFV is a good thing... but it makes sense that the options for the flex fuel cars is going to start to dwindle. at first everyone wanted to be "part of the solution" and so bought the cars the burned cleaner. but then these people realized it isnt as easy to get ethanol as it as gas and society today is about convenience. and of course big oil has something to do with it. big oil companies are dependent on us buying gasoline and other petroleum products, so they sure as hell arent going to start selling an alternative to their cash cow. and not many people are going to open up dedicated ethanol stations because there arent enough FFV out there to make that a financially sound investment. businesses arent going to start selling ethanol until there are enough FFV on the road to make a profit and people arent going to buy FFV until its convenient to get ethanol. which means we are at a standstill. so it doesnt make sense for Ford to make more FFV because it costs more (im assuming it costs more to produce, not entirely sure though) when people arent going to buy enough of them anyway __________________ -Steve 2001 Explorer Sport 4x4, Silver.

09-26-2007, 05:57 PM	#3
E.B. Cornburner Wannabe Elite Explorer Oshkosh, WI 2004 Eddie Bauer Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,146 Vehicle Specs (Original Poster)	In all reality, it doesn't cost them more to produce a FFV than a dedicated gas-burner. Ford doesn't use any additional sensors in the fuel system to read the alcohol content...They rely on O2 activity to "guesstimate" the type of fuel in the tank when the vehicle is restarted after a fill-up. It's mostly a difference in PCM calibration than it is any one component or system costing more than it would on a gasser. So, that being said...Why not make them all FFV? Every single car and light truck built could easily be FFV for little to no additional cost, and the owners could choose which fuel to run at their discretion. If it even cost $100 more on the retail end to have a FFV, that could be built into the MSRP and most people would never even know it. People pay more than that for a paint sealant package which does them little to no good 6 months later, so I can't see why it'd be a big deal at all. Just because a vehicle is capable of running E85 doesn't mean that the people have to use it...I know lots of people around me that own FFVs and never run E85 in them. Mainly for the reason you brought out...Convenience. Another small handful are not educated correctly and believe that ethanol will harm their vehicle, even though it's designed to use it. __________________ Mike 2004 Explorer Eddie Bauer 4.0 SOHC FFV Showroom clean, showroom stock.