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Hybrids, Electric, Hydrogen, Bio-diesel, E-85, Fuel Economy Discussion This forum is for information and discussion of fuels for tomorrow and fuel economy tips for our current vehicles. Hybrids, Electric, Hydrogen, Bio-diesel, Natural Gas, Propane, E-85 which will become our next mainstream fuel?

Hydro Assist Fuel Cell. Increase gas mileage 50%?

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Old 03-17-2008, 07:17 AM   #1
mp88
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Hydro Assist Fuel Cell. Increase gas mileage 50%?

First off, I wasn't quite sure where to post this.

In my little morning internet searches for performace parts, I came across a link to this system.

http://www.energyempire.com/hafc.html

Proficient product or scam?
The manufacturer((s)?) claim that this product, with all the computer tuning (done for $100), will give you a minimum of a 50% increase in gas mileage.

The claim is also that some cars will receive over a 100% increase in fuel economy, such as a Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic.

Opinions?
Objections?
If Aldive added this could his explorer get 40mpg?
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Old 03-17-2008, 07:25 AM   #2
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I don't know about that specific system whether it's a scam or not but there are systems like that that produce Hydrogen add it to the fuel mixture and can increase mileage. There are other threads on here talking about that. I don't think it's likely to give you a 50% increase in mileage. Maybe in something like a Honda Civic but not an Explorer.




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Old 03-17-2008, 07:48 AM   #3
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Very interesting.




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Old 03-17-2008, 09:40 AM   #4
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The section on hydrogen, E85, and hybrids is the correct section to post this. A member of this site has a similar site: WWW.Watergivesmegas.Com.
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Old 03-17-2008, 10:03 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBay View Post
The section on hydrogen, E85, and hybrids is the correct section to post this. A member of this site has a similar site: WWW.Watergivesmegas.Com.
Moved
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Old 03-17-2008, 12:04 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by mp88 View Post
Proficient product or scam?


Opinions?
Too bad its not true. I could add it to my Prius. I get 48 -50 now; with that thing I could get 100 mpg.

My opinion is that it is in fact a scam. The reason I believe it is a scam, is that for it to work the way they describe, it would violate the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. How do you use electrical energy from the alternator to split Hydrogen and Oxygen, then get back more energy to power the car? It would be a perpetual motion machine.

Anyway that's just my opinion.
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Old 03-17-2008, 12:26 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by dogfriend View Post
My opinion is that it is in fact a scam. The reason I believe it is a scam, is that for it to work the way they describe, it would violate the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. How do you use electrical energy from the alternator to split Hydrogen and Oxygen, then get back more energy to power the car? It would be a perpetual motion machine.
Anyway that's just my opinion.
I totally agree with you, it's also a little suspicious that they have so many testimonies from mechanics, yet they can't name a single mechanic by name or the shop he works at that endorses this product. the way our patent system works you don't have to prove a product works, you just need a unique idea, there have been countless news stories over the past 30 years about saving gas with water and ways to increase your fuel economy dramatically, yet not one of them has panned out.




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Old 03-17-2008, 06:19 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by dogfriend View Post
My opinion is that it is in fact a scam. The reason I believe it is a scam, is that for it to work the way they describe, it would violate the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. How do you use electrical energy from the alternator to split Hydrogen and Oxygen, then get back more energy to power the car? It would be a perpetual motion machine.
I disagree, at least in part, and here is my opinion....

According to that site, there are 4 different parts to the system. The 'Covalizer' additive sounds a little like adding acetone to the fuel, and might help a little. The 'HAFC Optimizer' is just a computer add-on, so I don't know anything about it. The 'HAFC Vaporizer' is magnets on the fuel line, which is a load of poopoo. The main part of the system is the Hydrogen fuel cell, which is supposed to produce hydrogen and oxygen gas from water. If it works, I believe it might increase mileage by as much as 20%. Might.

The reason I don't think it would be a 'perpetual motion machine' is that it adds water as a second fuel source. If the water can be converted to gas easily enough it would be a very cheap and readily available fuel. I know that's a big IF, and I am NOT saying that this thing works, only that it is feasible.

I have heard of a system that uses the electrical energy created by the alternator to power an electric super charger, which made the engine more powerful, so why couldn't you use electricity to get better mileage somehow?
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Old 03-17-2008, 08:30 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by dlk View Post

I have heard of a system that uses the electrical energy created by the alternator to power an electric super charger, which made the engine more powerful, so why couldn't you use electricity to get better mileage somehow?
Got any dyno tests from an independent source to show how much power is gained by the electric supercharger?
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Old 03-26-2008, 06:14 PM   #10
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Google it, there's lots of 'em!
http://www.electricsupercharger.com/...no-article.pdf
Wow! 1 whole psi., claimed 5 hp increase. Don't spend it all in one place!
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Old 03-26-2008, 06:43 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by dlk View Post
Google it, there's lots of 'em!
http://www.electricsupercharger.com/...no-article.pdf
Wow! 1 whole psi., claimed 5 hp increase. Don't spend it all in one place!
The left side of the graph is interesting - it indicates that the thing kills your available hp below about 3800 rpm. It isn't a perpetual energy scheme like the hydro assist - it pulls energy out of your battery (833 W ) to provide boost - but your alternator must recharge the energy (pulling power from the engine) . Good thing it only works at WOT, otherwise you would probably be killing batteries and alternators every week.
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Old 03-30-2008, 10:36 AM   #12
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On a Yahoo Discussion group I belong to, (PTS - Prius Technical Stuff), someone asked "Is this Real" referring to the water4gas website. Here is one of the responses that I thought was very clear (and I agree with):

Quote:
There is no such thing as "free energy" in physics terms, all energy has to
come from somewhere, and can not be created nor destroyed, only changed in
form. The whole energy game is converting the energy to a useful form. The
only exception is nuclear reactions.

Luckily for Solar power, we have a giant spherical nuclear reactor that we
orbit around at a convenient distance to collect the nuclear energy that has
been changed into light form, and convert it to electrical form. It's free in
terms of $ once you have the equipment to harvest it, but the energy comes
from somewhere, it's just normally energy wasted by beating upon the ground.
So it is free in the sense that collecting it is just wasting less of it.


"HHO" gas is simply a combination of hydrogen gas and oxygen gas, in the exact
quantities that allow them to burn completely to form water
(dihydrogen-monoxide a.k.a H2O). Creating HHO gas from water requires as much
energy as is released when they recombine to form water. Plus, there is no
100% efficient process to do this, and when it burns you can't make use of
100% of the energy releaed. So basically in the overall process you are going
to lose energy, not gain energy.

Since you can only get out (a maximum) of what energy you put into producing
HHO, it's only useful as an energy storage medium (like a battery), unless
you can find a naturally available source of it. This is why oil is useful,
nature has already converted the energy into a form of chemical energy that
we can use. The energy in oil came from somewhere too, originally the sun,
converted to chemical energy by living organisms, and concentrated into oil
by underground pressure and heat. We are just lucky nature has already done
the work for us in this case.

Energy can only be collected and converted. And you lose some energy in any
conversion process. A car is a closed energy system, all the energy
enventually comes from the fuel (unless you have a solar car or something).
making HHO in a car requires converting the chemical energy in the fuel to
mechanical energy (20-50% efficient), which is converted to electrical energy
by the alternator (80-95% efficient), which is used to electrolyse the water
(I'm guessing less than 90% efficient), which is burnt in the engine (20-50%
efficient). On this path you are now left with 2-2-20% of the energy you
started with in the fuel. This is fundamental physics, to get more energy out
of this conversion than is put in, requires rewriting those fundamental laws.
If anyone manages to do that, they should apply for a Nobel prize, and open a
power station, not mess around with trying to save fuel on cars.

Note that the HHO gas could be useful if you have an abundant source of energy
in a form that isn't convenient to run a car, and you use this enery source
to generate HHO to use that energy in your car. e.g. Use solar power to
electrolyse water. You then have to solve the storage problem of course, the
same problem as hydrogen cars face. I'm also fairly certain you would be far
better off storing the electricty from solar panels in batteries rather than
electrolysing water. Batteries can be up to 95% efficient, and electric
motors can be over 95% efficient, burning HHO is at best 50% efficient, and
fuel cells to generate electricty from hydrogen are about 50% as well, so you
would end up with less useful energy after electrolysis.

Cheers,
Mark
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Old 04-23-2008, 04:17 PM   #13
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wow i just lost interest in trying out these "fuel saver kits"
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Old 04-23-2008, 04:42 PM   #14
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Here are a couple of links on Wikipedia related to using water for fuel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley...ater_fuel_cell

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water-fuelled_car

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fuel_injection

The last one is particularly interesting. Remember, you can't get something for nothing.
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Old 04-24-2008, 10:17 AM   #15
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hho injection isnt a scam... and doesnt really give you a 50% increase... more like a 30% increase....


it does help make the engine run cleaner, slightly more power... and better gas mileage...

*gas mileage* being the key word..... you are supplementing hydrogen gas for gasoline... so you are still burning the same amount of total fuel... but less gasoline since your injecting hydrogen into the system... so its not really defying any laws or what not... buddy is working on a kit for his V6 F150... gets 29-30mpg with a supplemental kit installed.... here is a link...

http://www.v6f150.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14610

my apology if the link offends anyone from being directed to another site... just helping getting some info out there...

Im getting ready to make a kit for my 97 eclipse... if it works good... going to put it on my 2000 explorer...




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Old 05-28-2009, 06:48 PM   #16
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Has anybody tried hydrogen in a 2005 XLT?
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Old 05-31-2009, 12:36 AM   #17
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Many people have tried hydrogen. Check the threads in this section. AlDive has a write up with his test results.
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Old 08-07-2009, 08:21 PM   #18
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thought id just add this in:

my grandfather knows a professor at csu and he did testing for two years on hho, and he seemed to think that the best way to do it was use stainless stell plates put together, for the most output.
and as far as moddifying the computer, he said not to use the defices that tell the computer to inject less fuel, (like efie) as its not as reliable, but to actually have a way to constantly modifly the computer on demand, which takes lots of equipment.
those were just his tips to do, IF your going to try it
he tested it on 3 different vehicles, and his conclussion was that its far more effective on a carbed vehicle where you can quickly change and monitor the fuel given to the engine.
also another thing he said about it that many things online lie to you about is that the hho isnt actually burning along with the gasoline, since it doesnt burn nearly as efficiently in a gas engine, so really, the hho is just helping the gasoline burn more fully, which is why being able to fine tune it is essential.
btw all the ppl out there who say it doulbed there mileage is fake, and even a 30% increase in not realistic,most like people that are getting this much of an increase is because they are using devices like efie too much, and are running way lean, and are gonna have serious engine damage soon.

the final conclussion after our conversation is: its not a magical easy way to improve anything on your car. you may gain 1 mpg, if you put tons of time and money into a good system and tons of tuning.
all the cheap kits off ebay arent gonna do any good.
and just like dogfriends post said, the power you use to create it, really isnt made back up with the hho, so there is minimal differences in total effeciency.
so basically, its not a driveway mod thats gonna save money, you probly wont lose more than a 100 bucks if you do it yourself, but to do it well, its going to have to be an expensive system, with lots of time an money put into it

i spoke with him for a while about hho and learned alot , and it convinced me not to do any kind of hho install, hoping to gets tons of power and mileage.




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Old 05-08-2012, 02:39 PM   #19
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US Second Law

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogfriend View Post
Too bad its not true. I could add it to my Prius. I get 48 -50 now; with that thing I could get 100 mpg.

My opinion is that it is in fact a scam. The reason I believe it is a scam, is that for it to work the way they describe, it would violate the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. How do you use electrical energy from the alternator to split Hydrogen and Oxygen, then get back more energy to power the car? It would be a perpetual motion machine.

Anyway that's just my opinion.
from the verry little information you have given on your analysis of the second law of thermo, I don't see how it would violate it. What are you inputs, and how did you obtain a measurable amount of energy input. What are you stating are your out puts? What efficiency are you assuming? Have you tested the First law of Thermo dynamics? What was your procedure? I'm sorry for all of the questions, but being a chemical engineering student with a minor in Mechanical and Petroleum Engineering for Oklahoma State University I can't help but question your methods. It's what any good engineer would want to know...
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Old 05-08-2012, 09:14 PM   #20
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Read post #12 above in this thread.
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