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Stock 1995 - 2001 Explorers Questions related to non-modified 1995-2001 Explorer, Mountaineer, Ranger and '02+ Sports and Sport Trac. Problem solving, maintenance, TSB, service bulletins, owner reviews, specifications.

98 Explorer suddenly won't start - doesn't fire

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Old 09-01-2009, 05:15 PM   #21
willy2
Raleigh, NC
98 Sport 2WD V6 OHV Manl
 
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Mechanic called back, they replaced the PATS module and reprogrammed, and it still does the same thing. Out $110 for the locksmith, and they told me I now need to tow it to a dealer and pay them $95/hr to start diagnosing the problem...

Once again symptoms:
Suddenly won't start (was running fine up to that point)
Engine turns over when I try to start, but timing light says no spark
Anti-theft light flashing rapidly
Three known working keys won't work anymore
Replacing the PATS module in the steering column didn't fix it..
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Old 09-01-2009, 05:55 PM   #22
TheJackal
Mandeville, LA
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Flashing THEFT light indicates PATS issue. Looks like you finally figured it out after much deliberation.

is the wiring OK? Did you ever have a remote start unit?
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Old 09-01-2009, 06:36 PM   #23
willy2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJackal View Post
Flashing THEFT light indicates PATS issue. Looks like you finally figured it out after much deliberation.

is the wiring OK? Did you ever have a remote start unit?
Never had a remote start unit... I installed an aftermarket (audiovox) cruise control about 6 months ago...

I checked all of the major fuses, and any that I thought could have an effect on the starter.. Guess I could start checking connectors etc.. I'll have to do that at the service station tomorrow

I'm going to research the crank position sensor now, I thought I read something about this sometimes causing a PATS issue..
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Old 09-01-2009, 08:46 PM   #24
chance942
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Man AUDIOVOX makes me cringe. How hard would it be for you take all if it off and try starting it then?

Supposedly audiovox has gotten better but man they make some absolute junk.
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Old 09-01-2009, 08:52 PM   #25
TheJackal
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I'd doubt the Audiovox cruise control is causing the problem. I only asked if he had a remote start because the wiring for the bypass module could be screwed. I've never had a problem with an Audiovox product.

You may want to double-check any wires down there... altho if they replaced and reprogrammed everything they should've caught a wiring issue.

Seems strange a crankshaft sensor would cause the PATS to go nuts...?
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Old 09-01-2009, 09:07 PM   #26
chance942
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Yeah I couldn't really see how it would either.

That's the key,double check for yourself. I had an intermittent starting problem on mine a year or so after I bought it and sure enough it was butt splice that wasn't crimped right and was causing the problem. I wired it right and haven't had the problem since.

I also agree about CPS Interuptor mag,etc. None of that has anything to with it,I mean as far as them being "bad". They aren't being allowed to function and that along with the light to the theft module,rap,whatever.
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Old 09-01-2009, 09:11 PM   #27
willy2
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Hi Jackal,
I'm including a post you made from another thread here - so we don't start having a parallel conversation in two different threads... I very much appreciate any insight you have!!!

To answer the below, I never had a remote start at any time.

In the below referenced thread, scucci claims that the cps problem is one of the conditions causing anti0theft to trigger, and I believe I have also seen that in a thread somewhere...

I'm hoping there could be a way to read a code telling me which condition is causing the Anti-theft to trigger, and help me isolate the problem...

*******************

This thread is located at:
http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/...d.php?t=230995

Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************
I think you need the Ford NGS or similar tool to read "B" codes. I don't think the scanners you get at parts places can pull those.

The wiring for the PATS module goes up to the steering column. I'll see if I can get a diagram for you so you can check it. In the "Under The Hood" secton under the PATS thread I posted what wire colors were what, so you can look under there and see.

Did you have a remote start system at any time?
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Old 09-01-2009, 09:19 PM   #28
TheJackal
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The Transceiver Module is located in the steering column and gets the code from the key. The wires from it go to the PATS Module, which appears to be somewhere behind the passenger airbag. It then connects to the PCM.

you can try testing those wires but in the end you may have to bring it somewhere to be checked out. Hunting down all the different wires is going to be a bitch and with the right tool, they'll be able to track down exactly what the problem is (or at least, should be able to)

edit: you will not be able to replace any of those components yourself because they need programming before they will work.
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Old 09-01-2009, 09:41 PM   #29
chance942
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you could atleast check the pats ground looks like. like i told you before i really think have a short somewhere. ALL of your keys don't work. Unless you're an electrical wiz you're going to need some help.

Good luck.
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Old 09-01-2009, 10:27 PM   #30
willy2
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In the sticky PATS article in "Under the hood", it says the below. Do I understand correctly that if I leave the key in the ON position for a while, I will get a diagnostic flash code identifying the issue? I can't check at the moment as my Ex is at the service station...

Engine does not start: LED flashes rapidly Leave ignition on until the LED starts to flash a 2 digit code: (sequence- pause-sequence)
Check the following codes:
Code flashes:
1:3 Key code not received. Is key screened by other keys or objects? Try different key: if okay then first key is faulty. If not go to main dealer
1:4 Partial code only received. Try again. If not okay use different key. If not go to main dealer
1:5 Key not programmed into PATS. Program key as above using master
1:6 Faulty link between PATS module and EECV Go to dealer .

also from the other post, I believe the below also have flash codes in the second column???

PATS DTC CODES:


³ DTC ³ Flashing Fault ³ Description ³ Action ³³ ³ Code ³ ³ ³
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
³ B1213 ³ 21 ³ Anti-Theft Number of Programmed Encoded ³ GO to Pinpoint Test B1213. ³
³ ³ ³ Ignition Keys Below Minimum ³ ³
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
³ B1232 ³ 12 ³ Defective Transceiver ³ GO to Pinpoint Test B1232. ³
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
³ B1600 ³ 13 ³ No Key Code Received Ä Damaged Encoded ³ GO to Pinpoint Test B1600. ³
³ ³ ³ Ignition Key or Use of Non-PATS Encoded ³ ³
³ ³ ³ Ignition Key ³ ³
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
³ B1601 ³ 15 ³ Unprogrammed Encoded Ignition Key (Keycode ³ GO to Pinpoint Test B1601. ³
³ ³ ³ Format OK) ³ ³
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
³ B1602 ³ 14 ³ Invalid Key Code Format From Encoded ³ GO to Pinpoint Test B1602. ³
³ ³ ³ Ignition Key Transponder ³ ³
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
³ B1681 ³ 11 ³ PATS Transceiver Signal Is Not Received ³ GO to Pinpoint Test B1681. ³
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
³ B2139 ³ 23 ³ Security ID Does Not Match Between PATS ³ GO to Pinpoint Test B2139. ³
³ ³ ³ and PCM ³ ³
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
³ B2141 ³ 22 ³ No Security ID Exchange Between PATS and ³ GO to Pinpoint Test B2141. ³
³ ³ ³ PCM ³ ³
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
³ U1147 ³ 16 ³ Faulty SCP Link or Incorrect PCM ³ GO to Pinpoint Test U1147. ³
³ ³ ³ Calibration ³ ³
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Old 09-02-2009, 11:07 AM   #31
willy2
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Now I know to watch the anti-theft light...

I was able to get the diagnostic code from the anti-theft light... You have to wait a bit before it shows up, but I get 1-6..

So the issue is:

U1147 Communications issue, SCP (J1850), between PCM and PATS control (PATS/ICM/ VIC/HEC/SCIL).

U1147: This code indicates a communication issue (Bus+, Bus-) between the PCM and PATS (VIC/HEC/SCIL). This code CANNOT be caused by PATS key, PATS transceiver, or the circuits between PATS transceiver and PATS control. Whenever PATS has U1147 as a stored DTC, there should be a “P1260 Theft Detected - Engine Disabled” in the PCM stored codes. Verify that P1260 is stored in PCM. If not, there is a possible power-up issue of the PCM (i.e., PATS is powering up at key to RUN/START but the PCM is not, therefore when PATS tries to communicate over Circuits 914 and 915 to the PCM, there is no response); verify power and ground circuits to the PCM; verify the tester can communicate with the PCM.


Sooooo.... without having an NGS, I am going to check power and ground to the PCM, then a bunch of power/short tests to the SCP network...

Anybody have anything "common" to check, maybe had this issue before???
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Old 09-02-2009, 07:28 PM   #32
budwich
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Actually, the code helps.... you probably have been focused on the wrong thing. The initial observations should have been with the check engine light. That light should come on and stay on with the key sitting in the ON position "for ever" (ie. as long as the key is ON). This will test your PCM connections in terms of power up.
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Old 09-02-2009, 10:25 PM   #33
lhsbearcat64
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Open the power box under the hood (driver's side), tap on the relay for the PCM...should start. I spent a ton of money on my '95 until I discovered the whole problem was a $12 relay. Can't hurt for you to try it.
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:06 AM   #34
willy2
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Hi, the check engine light does stay on forever...

Quote:
Originally Posted by budwich View Post
Actually, the code helps.... you probably have been focused on the wrong thing. The initial observations should have been with the check engine light. That light should come on and stay on with the key sitting in the ON position "for ever" (ie. as long as the key is ON). This will test your PCM connections in terms of power up.
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:07 AM   #35
willy2
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I did try jumpering this relay, so I think that rules the PCM relay out...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lhsbearcat64 View Post
Open the power box under the hood (driver's side), tap on the relay for the PCM...should start. I spent a ton of money on my '95 until I discovered the whole problem was a $12 relay. Can't hurt for you to try it.
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:14 AM   #36
willy2
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Update

I got a tow from the service station to the Ford Dealer. When it got there, it started up fine for them, no codes. The guy said there was only one code in the system, from a wrong key, and that is expected since the PATS transceiver was replaced..

But it was misfiring, which wasn't happening before. But I don't think that is related to anything.

So I took it for a spin and it started up again for me..

So I drove it home, and this morning, guess what? Same anti-theft issue. Code 1 6. Won't start.

When I went through the trouble shooting list, I am down to two possible problems, a bad PATS module, or a wiring problem between the PATS and the PCM. My only thought is maybe something is intermittent that is affected by vibration..

I did check all the power and ground connections to the PCM and they were all fine..

One good thing from all of this. I signed up for the Allstate Motor Club (RVRoadHelp plan) last year, and this has sure kept a bad situation from being even worse!!! They have covered all of the towing so far...

Last edited by willy2; 09-03-2009 at 07:14 AM.
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Old 09-03-2009, 08:06 AM   #37
budwich
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Well that's good and bad news. At least now you know that your keys are certainly good and it would appear to be "communication" problem. On a "no start" condition / "rapid flashing", you might want to try taking a hair dryer and blowing it at the PCM module with "care" not to get it too warm but warming the connectors up just the same to if possibly you have a poor connection issue in and around that area. Possibly disconnecting and reconnecting the PCM might help but don't play around too much with things there as the connector(s) are "massive" (pin coount) and you might make your troubles worse.
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Old 09-03-2009, 08:31 AM   #38
willy2
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I did unlock the PCM connector and check power and ground to all connectors on the harness side.. all good.. and from what you said above, as long as the "check engine" light stays on, the PCM has powered up fine, do I understand correctly?

One thing I learned from this (and will add to the PATS sticky thread) is that you have to be patient and count the number of flashes of the anti-theft light, and it will tell you why it triggered... In my case the code 1:6 CANNOT be caused by key, transceiver, or wiring between transceiver and PATS module...

Quote:
Originally Posted by budwich View Post
Well that's good and bad news. At least now you know that your keys are certainly good and it would appear to be "communication" problem. On a "no start" condition / "rapid flashing", you might want to try taking a hair dryer and blowing it at the PCM module with "care" not to get it too warm but warming the connectors up just the same to if possibly you have a poor connection issue in and around that area. Possibly disconnecting and reconnecting the PCM might help but don't play around too much with things there as the connector(s) are "massive" (pin coount) and you might make your troubles worse.
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Old 09-03-2009, 08:39 AM   #39
budwich
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Yea, the code stuff is good for every one. You are definitely heading somewhere... hopefully down the right track. Yes if the light goes on and stays solid (check engine), then powering and "base sanity" of the PCM is good. I would give my suggestion about the heating of the connector areas a try to see if it changes the symptoms a bit. I don't know much about the signalling between the PCM and theft module but it is probably simple as in the theft module throws on a ground and the PCM "replies" with a voltage.... probably not much more than that but I don't know and my 96 doesn't have the option.
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Old 09-03-2009, 09:06 AM   #40
gijoecam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lhsbearcat64 View Post
Open the power box under the hood (driver's side), tap on the relay for the PCM...should start. I spent a ton of money on my '95 until I discovered the whole problem was a $12 relay. Can't hurt for you to try it.
Your 95 cannot have a PATS issue like this one. Your 95 does not have the PATS system.

Tuning in to this one out of curiosity... It definitely sounds like either a communication issue, or wiring problem... Did they replace just the PATS transceiver? I would assume so, because IIRC, the PATS control module is actually integrated into the instrument cluster...




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