The everything Aviator thread.

dalsox2235 · 12-12-2011, 06:25 AM

Hey sorry to reopen this thread as it seems as though no one has posted in it for a while, but I have a question. I have been trying to replace the fog light bulbs in my Aviator and I cant seem to get the old bulbs out. I have gone from under the bumper fascia trying to turn the bulbs to pull them out, but the damn things just wont move. Is there some kind of secret to getting them out? Appreciate any help. Thanks

JoetheCarGuy · 12-12-2011, 01:02 PM

Yes there is a secret. It took me way to long to figure it out, but you need to unplug the bulb BEFORE you try to untwist it. Once it's unplugged, you'll be able to twist it right out.

paul0877 · 02-03-2012, 07:37 PM

I have owned my 2003 Aviator for about 2 years now. Bought it to replace my prior daily driver. It is a fully loaded Premium edition. I have had the front suspension rebuilt, changed out all of the struts as they were starting to fail, added a Flowmaster muffler in place of the stock muffler (Sounds great.) Changed out the trans filter and fuel filter, serp. belt, EGR valve assembly and gave it a tune up. Well over 125,000 miles. Looks and runs great. Minus the cracked lift gate like every other one out there.

I get 12-14 MPG in the city depending on the air temp. I have gotten over 24 MPG on summer trips with the cruise set at a reasonable speed. The high flow muffler made a very noticable difference in fuel economy. I am looking at getting a mild performance chip or programmer for it. Has anyone else tried this? Any recommendations?

Micahdogg · 04-10-2012, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by camusmuse

Well after looking a boring and depressing engine failure causes, I decided to look at some wheels to make me wanna keep my Avi...lol....seems logical to me....no?

Anyway Micha.... What size tires are you running on those rims? Do you have any other specs on the rims...width, offset? Are they already TPS, did you add it, or just disable it?

Anyone else with this info please feel free to chime in....looks like ill be on the boards for a while tonight......

Thanks..... Nate

I'm only a year late. The wheels are 20X9 I believe in the 05+ Mustang bolt pattern. 05+ are a slightly different offset than earlier Stangs, but the 5X4.5 bolt pattern remains the same. Looks like these wheels might be discontinued too

But I got em at Jegs for like $900 shipped new. I looked up another Shelby rim (CS66) and it shows a 6.18 backspace for a 20X9 so it's probably similar.

ibayter · 07-31-2012, 04:23 AM

Hello Mica and Paul, I am a new Aviator Owner ! I am happy to find this thread thanks to the aviator guy!! keep it going please I will need all your help since my engine is busted, like I told a couple of guys here on pm the cam on the pass side seized and broke the little chain that hold both cams I am in the process of tearing down my heads to see if the piston are damage or just bend a valve, please if any one has a repair manual I will need a copy, need to know the torque on the head bolts and how is the best way to remove them. will post pics later today after work, too bad I am going on vacation for a week but I will be back around the 13.

ibayter · 07-31-2012, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul0877

I have owned my 2003 Aviator for about 2 years now. Bought it to replace my prior daily driver. It is a fully loaded Premium edition. I have had the front suspension rebuilt, changed out all of the struts as they were starting to fail, added a Flowmaster muffler in place of the stock muffler (Sounds great.) Changed out the trans filter and fuel filter, serp. belt, EGR valve assembly and gave it a tune up. Well over 125,000 miles. Looks and runs great. Minus the cracked lift gate like every other one out there.

I get 12-14 MPG in the city depending on the air temp. I have gotten over 24 MPG on summer trips with the cruise set at a reasonable speed. The high flow muffler made a very noticable difference in fuel economy. I am looking at getting a mild performance chip or programmer for it. Has anyone else tried this? Any recommendations?

Paul I wonder if you have a video clip of the flowmaster on the Aviator, will be nice to hear it, just wonder if it is too loud for a nice luxury car?

ibayter · 10-15-2012, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibayter

Paul I wonder if you have a video clip of the flowmaster on the Aviator, will be nice to hear it, just wonder if it is too loud for a nice luxury car?

Guys, I wonder if you still have your Aviator? Please just answer yes or not.

JoetheCarGuy · 01-19-2013, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibayter

Guys, I wonder if you still have your Aviator? Please just answer yes or not.

Nope.
At 105K it was losing 12% compression in Cylinder 8 and needed a new head. Dealer wanted over $6K for the job and my local mechanic would charge $2.5K. Transmission had started getting a little rough too. Traded it in on an '04 Jetta Wagon 1.8T 5-Speed.

JoetheCarGuy · 01-19-2013, 04:11 PM

paul0877 · 01-19-2013, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibayter

Guys, I wonder if you still have your Aviator? Please just answer yes or not.

Yes! Love my Aviator. Had the liftgate replaced with a brand new Ford part last summer and had a few minor blemish areas repainted as well. 150+K and runs great. Added K&N air filter setup last summer as well. Engine really woke up after that + the exhaust upgrade a year ago.

I do not have very good recording equipment to record the exhaust, but it is not very loud. Nice mellow tone, a little bark on heavy throttle, but flows much better than stock. Flowmaster PN 52572. Highly recommend one. Custom instal from mufflershop required. Not a direct replacement part.

Sorry for the delayed response. I do not recall getting an notice to reply prior to this.

*Albino 94LTD* · 01-20-2013, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibayter

Guys, I wonder if you still have your Aviator? Please just answer yes or not.

Yep, still going strong at 140k. Needs new ball joints though.

Micahdogg · 01-22-2013, 10:29 AM

Our 2004 is still doing fairly well. It just turned 60K miles. We added a Magnaflow cat back, K&N drop in and a set of stop-tech cross drilled rotors and pads. The motor definitely picked up some power with the filter/exhaust - probably up to the normal 320HP it would have in the Cobra.

We also ran the truck at the dragstrip when it was stock - on the 20 inch rims. Best e.t. was 16.6. Can't recall the mph.

Only issues right now is a horrible "supercharger" type whine under the hood. Sounds like power steering, but fluid is good and it works great so we are just listening to it for now. Otherwise still pluggin along.

5O4U2NV · 01-24-2013, 05:34 PM

Well I bought an 03 Aviator last fall and learned last week that is had the dreaded #7 cyclinder sticking valve missfire issue. Luckily I was able to trade it in on a really nice 05 with only 67K. I looked at other suvs in the same price range but was unable to find anything with the same options that still had the fun to drive factor. Hopefully I will have this one for many years.

ibayter · 01-25-2013, 08:02 AM

That's good to hear guys! Well as you know I haven't got mine back on the road yet I had to fix the head on the pass side and run into some issues while doing it but hopefully this spring will try to finish to put back together. Will post pictures soon right now it is too cold here specially this week -25 Celsius
I really got to know our engine a lot since I did the rebuild my self so guys don't be afraid to work on her. We will try to keep our Aviators alive!

Micahdogg · 01-25-2013, 09:15 AM

I think a lot of problems are caused by people with a lead foot too. We already know the rear cylinder heads have inadequate cooling. NO sense in beating the thing within an inch of it's life until you can do the cooling mod.

*Albino 94LTD* · 01-25-2013, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micahdogg

I think a lot of problems are caused by people with a lead foot too. We already know the rear cylinder heads have inadequate cooling. NO sense in beating the thing within an inch of it's life until you can do the cooling mod.

Umm,, what cooling mod?

Micahdogg · 01-25-2013, 11:02 AM

There are kits that tap into freeze plugs in the back of the heads and allow you to install a cross tube. Currently coolant doesn't flow well back there, gets trapped, heats up, and causes excessive wear on the rearmost cylinders (4 and 8). If you aren't beating the hell out of the motor, it is less of an issue, but if you drive it hard, you will cause wear to those cylinders. Several people make kits. Here is more info than you probably wanted....

------

4.6 DOHC HEAD COOLING MOD
Introduction to the Even Flow Cooling Mod

This newly designed modification was initially designed around the 4.6 DOHC supercharged application for 2003-2004 Mustang Cobras. This modification is applicable to other higher horsepower 4.6 DOHC engine applications such as those found in 2003-2004 Mach 1s, Marauders, 1999-2001 Cobras, and other chassis combinations that have been fitted with a 4.6 DOHC power plant.

Engine modifications seeking to increase horsepower and torque will also increase the amount of heat generated by the engine. Under ideal circumstances the cooling system as a whole would have adequate capacity to carry excess heat away from the cylinder heads and engine block, keeping cylinder block and head temperatures in a working range that allows proper warm-up, yet prevents excessive temperatures, which lead to pre-ignition, detonation, and overheat conditions. The widespread availability of high flow cylinder heads, superchargers, turbochargers, and nitrous oxide for these modular power plants has allowed modern day street cars to make 2-3 times the horsepower and torque the manufacturer intended. Naturally, excess heat is a by-product of this extra power.

A common issue that has generated significant interest and discussion has been the lack of coolant flow at the rear section of the drivers side cylinder head on Mustang applications (Other chassis applications with a 4.6 DOHC engine may also suffer this potential issue on the passenger head also). From 2002 through the present date, Ford has revised the part number for the driver's side head 3 times for the supercharged Cobras. Many owners and tuners believe that cooling issues, combined with inadequate spark plug threads in the earlier head design, contributed to problems such as bad valve guides, audible ticking noises from the driver's side head, spark plugs getting blown out of the cylinder heads, pistons being overheated, and cylinder bore scoring, sometimes requiring engine replacement. High boost pressures, sustained high-speed runs, and bad tunes contribute substantially to these potential problems.

The passenger side cylinder head (in Mustang applications) has a distinct advantage over the driver's side head. The passenger side head is equipped from the factory with a fitting that allows hot engine coolant at the rear of the head to flow through the heater core and eventually find its way to the back of the water pump for continued circulation. The driver's side head, from the factory, has no such provision. As such, the superheated coolant must find its way back to the front of the cylinder head before being circulated into the radiator. It is believed the factory design allows this superheated coolant to pool near cylinders #7 and #8 too long, keeping those cylinders at a higher temperature and/or a higher rate of temperature gain than the others. To complicate matters further, a vehicle that has the ability to generate a higher level of acceleration force will effectively counteract the movement of coolant from the back of the engine to the front. Is it just a coincidence that a majority of engine problems in power adder applications bein have identified these rear cylinders as most the common?

In an effort to combat this issue aftermarket companies have attempted to use/modify a factory Ford fitting, allowing it to be installed in a rear freeze plug location on the driver's side head. The coolant flow from the driver's side head is then merged with the passenger side head before being routed through the heater core and back to the water pump. On some aftermarket kits, transmission removal is a necessity for installation.

THIS IS THE FIRST AREA WHERE THE EVEN FLOW COOLING MOD DIFFERS. THE INSTALLATION OF THE EVEN FLOW COOLING MOD DOES NOT REQUIRE TRANSMISSION REMOVAL AND IS PERFORMED FROM THE TOP OF THE VEHICLE (BLOWER REMOVAL IS NECESSARY)

Aftermarket companies using the factory Ford/modified fitting tie the driver's side and passenger side head's coolant flow together and then route the coolant through the heater core and back into a metal tube that runs under the intake and terminates at the rear of the water pump for circulation back into the engine (Note: NOT through the radiator)

THIS IS THE SECOND AREA WHERE THE EVEN FLOW KIT DIFFERS IN ITS DESIGN.

The Even Flow Kit creates a completely separate path for the driver's side coolant and routes it directly to the radiator via a custom fabricated aluminum 'T' that installs in the upper radiator hose. The passenger side coolant flow remains in the stock configuration, except for the removal of the INNER restrictor that is located in the inlet hose to the heater core. Once the above modifications are complete, both rear cylinder heads will be flowing coolant through restrictions that are approximately .370-.390 thus maintaining EQUAL coolant flow. Additionally, two completely separate coolant paths are used instead of merging the coolant at the heater core and attempting to double the coolant flow through a single given restriction.

ibayter · 01-26-2013, 03:50 AM

Mica any web site link to buy the mod, have you done it? if so which one you did?

Micahdogg · 01-26-2013, 02:21 PM

I haven't done it yet. I like what Even Flow is stating though, so I would probably buy their kit. A friend of mine did this mod to his Lincoln Mark 8 32v DOHC that was swapped into a MN12 Cougar. It was only the longblock and his hood was off, and things looked pretty tight (obviously since you are working at the back of the head against the firewall).

So be prepared to spend a little time, but it is a must have mod for all of these DOHC motors as far as I'm concerned. But it is much less of a concern if you drive normal.

Sully56 · 01-28-2013, 04:21 PM

I'm a relatively new owner of a 2004 Aviator, and starting to have the tell-tale signs of bad coils. Any option to taking it to the dealer to trouble shoot which coil is bad? I can do the replacement, but knowing which one (or 2 or 3) to replace is the issue. Dealer wants $88 to test for which ones to replace, and I guess it could be a lot worse, but a cheaper way to go would be nice.

12-12-2011, 01:02 PM	#62
JoetheCarGuy Wannabe Elite Explorer Cleveland, Ohio 2004 VW Jetta Wagon 1.8T Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 51 Vehicle Specs	Yes there is a secret. It took me way to long to figure it out, but you need to unplug the bulb BEFORE you try to untwist it. Once it's unplugged, you'll be able to twist it right out. __________________ 2004 Lincoln Aviator AWD, 4.6 V8, Heated/Cooled Leather seats, Xenon HID headlights w/ LED Strips, 17 in. Chrome Rims wrapped in P245/65R17 H Michelin Latitude Tour HP, Moonroof, 8 in, Rockford Fosgate subwoofer, and LED interior lighting. Check out http://www.facebook.com/album.php?ai...7&l=d4170618a3 for pictures of these mods!

02-03-2012, 07:37 PM	#63
paul0877 Wannabe Elite Explorer WI 2003 Lincoln Aviator Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2 Vehicle Specs	2003 Aviator owner I have owned my 2003 Aviator for about 2 years now. Bought it to replace my prior daily driver. It is a fully loaded Premium edition. I have had the front suspension rebuilt, changed out all of the struts as they were starting to fail, added a Flowmaster muffler in place of the stock muffler (Sounds great.) Changed out the trans filter and fuel filter, serp. belt, EGR valve assembly and gave it a tune up. Well over 125,000 miles. Looks and runs great. Minus the cracked lift gate like every other one out there. I get 12-14 MPG in the city depending on the air temp. I have gotten over 24 MPG on summer trips with the cruise set at a reasonable speed. The high flow muffler made a very noticable difference in fuel economy. I am looking at getting a mild performance chip or programmer for it. Has anyone else tried this? Any recommendations?

01-19-2013, 04:11 PM	#69
JoetheCarGuy Wannabe Elite Explorer Cleveland, Ohio 2004 VW Jetta Wagon 1.8T Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 51 Vehicle Specs	__________________ 2004 Lincoln Aviator AWD, 4.6 V8, Heated/Cooled Leather seats, Xenon HID headlights w/ LED Strips, 17 in. Chrome Rims wrapped in P245/65R17 H Michelin Latitude Tour HP, Moonroof, 8 in, Rockford Fosgate subwoofer, and LED interior lighting. Check out http://www.facebook.com/album.php?ai...7&l=d4170618a3 for pictures of these mods! Last edited by JoetheCarGuy; 01-22-2013 at 11:06 AM. Reason: Double Post

12-12-2011, 06:25 AM	#61
dalsox2235 Wannabe Elite Explorer WI 99 Mountaineer Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 21 Vehicle Specs	Hey sorry to reopen this thread as it seems as though no one has posted in it for a while, but I have a question. I have been trying to replace the fog light bulbs in my Aviator and I cant seem to get the old bulbs out. I have gone from under the bumper fascia trying to turn the bulbs to pull them out, but the damn things just wont move. Is there some kind of secret to getting them out? Appreciate any help. Thanks

07-31-2012, 04:23 AM	#65
ibayter Wannabe Elite Explorer Maple, Ontario 2003 Aviator Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 21 Vehicle Specs	Hello Mica and Paul, I am a new Aviator Owner ! I am happy to find this thread thanks to the aviator guy!! keep it going please I will need all your help since my engine is busted, like I told a couple of guys here on pm the cam on the pass side seized and broke the little chain that hold both cams I am in the process of tearing down my heads to see if the piston are damage or just bend a valve, please if any one has a repair manual I will need a copy, need to know the torque on the head bolts and how is the best way to remove them. will post pics later today after work, too bad I am going on vacation for a week but I will be back around the 13.

01-22-2013, 10:29 AM	#72
Micahdogg Wannabe Elite Explorer Central IL 2004 Aviator Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 23 Vehicle Specs	Our 2004 is still doing fairly well. It just turned 60K miles. We added a Magnaflow cat back, K&N drop in and a set of stop-tech cross drilled rotors and pads. The motor definitely picked up some power with the filter/exhaust - probably up to the normal 320HP it would have in the Cobra. We also ran the truck at the dragstrip when it was stock - on the 20 inch rims. Best e.t. was 16.6. Can't recall the mph. Only issues right now is a horrible "supercharger" type whine under the hood. Sounds like power steering, but fluid is good and it works great so we are just listening to it for now. Otherwise still pluggin along.

01-24-2013, 05:34 PM	#73
5O4U2NV Wannabe Elite Explorer Bloomington MN 05 Aviator Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 4 Vehicle Specs	Well I bought an 03 Aviator last fall and learned last week that is had the dreaded #7 cyclinder sticking valve missfire issue. Luckily I was able to trade it in on a really nice 05 with only 67K. I looked at other suvs in the same price range but was unable to find anything with the same options that still had the fun to drive factor. Hopefully I will have this one for many years.

01-25-2013, 08:02 AM	#74
ibayter Wannabe Elite Explorer Maple, Ontario 2003 Aviator Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 21 Vehicle Specs	That's good to hear guys! Well as you know I haven't got mine back on the road yet I had to fix the head on the pass side and run into some issues while doing it but hopefully this spring will try to finish to put back together. Will post pictures soon right now it is too cold here specially this week -25 Celsius I really got to know our engine a lot since I did the rebuild my self so guys don't be afraid to work on her. We will try to keep our Aviators alive!

01-25-2013, 09:15 AM	#75
Micahdogg Wannabe Elite Explorer Central IL 2004 Aviator Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 23 Vehicle Specs	I think a lot of problems are caused by people with a lead foot too. We already know the rear cylinder heads have inadequate cooling. NO sense in beating the thing within an inch of it's life until you can do the cooling mod.

01-25-2013, 11:02 AM	#77
Micahdogg Wannabe Elite Explorer Central IL 2004 Aviator Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 23 Vehicle Specs	There are kits that tap into freeze plugs in the back of the heads and allow you to install a cross tube. Currently coolant doesn't flow well back there, gets trapped, heats up, and causes excessive wear on the rearmost cylinders (4 and 8). If you aren't beating the hell out of the motor, it is less of an issue, but if you drive it hard, you will cause wear to those cylinders. Several people make kits. Here is more info than you probably wanted.... ------ 4.6 DOHC HEAD COOLING MOD Introduction to the Even Flow Cooling Mod This newly designed modification was initially designed around the 4.6 DOHC supercharged application for 2003-2004 Mustang Cobras. This modification is applicable to other higher horsepower 4.6 DOHC engine applications such as those found in 2003-2004 Mach 1s, Marauders, 1999-2001 Cobras, and other chassis combinations that have been fitted with a 4.6 DOHC power plant. Engine modifications seeking to increase horsepower and torque will also increase the amount of heat generated by the engine. Under ideal circumstances the cooling system as a whole would have adequate capacity to carry excess heat away from the cylinder heads and engine block, keeping cylinder block and head temperatures in a working range that allows proper warm-up, yet prevents excessive temperatures, which lead to pre-ignition, detonation, and overheat conditions. The widespread availability of high flow cylinder heads, superchargers, turbochargers, and nitrous oxide for these modular power plants has allowed modern day street cars to make 2-3 times the horsepower and torque the manufacturer intended. Naturally, excess heat is a by-product of this extra power. A common issue that has generated significant interest and discussion has been the lack of coolant flow at the rear section of the drivers side cylinder head on Mustang applications (Other chassis applications with a 4.6 DOHC engine may also suffer this potential issue on the passenger head also). From 2002 through the present date, Ford has revised the part number for the driver's side head 3 times for the supercharged Cobras. Many owners and tuners believe that cooling issues, combined with inadequate spark plug threads in the earlier head design, contributed to problems such as bad valve guides, audible ticking noises from the driver's side head, spark plugs getting blown out of the cylinder heads, pistons being overheated, and cylinder bore scoring, sometimes requiring engine replacement. High boost pressures, sustained high-speed runs, and bad tunes contribute substantially to these potential problems. The passenger side cylinder head (in Mustang applications) has a distinct advantage over the driver's side head. The passenger side head is equipped from the factory with a fitting that allows hot engine coolant at the rear of the head to flow through the heater core and eventually find its way to the back of the water pump for continued circulation. The driver's side head, from the factory, has no such provision. As such, the superheated coolant must find its way back to the front of the cylinder head before being circulated into the radiator. It is believed the factory design allows this superheated coolant to pool near cylinders #7 and #8 too long, keeping those cylinders at a higher temperature and/or a higher rate of temperature gain than the others. To complicate matters further, a vehicle that has the ability to generate a higher level of acceleration force will effectively counteract the movement of coolant from the back of the engine to the front. Is it just a coincidence that a majority of engine problems in power adder applications bein have identified these rear cylinders as most the common? In an effort to combat this issue aftermarket companies have attempted to use/modify a factory Ford fitting, allowing it to be installed in a rear freeze plug location on the driver's side head. The coolant flow from the driver's side head is then merged with the passenger side head before being routed through the heater core and back to the water pump. On some aftermarket kits, transmission removal is a necessity for installation. THIS IS THE FIRST AREA WHERE THE EVEN FLOW COOLING MOD DIFFERS. THE INSTALLATION OF THE EVEN FLOW COOLING MOD DOES NOT REQUIRE TRANSMISSION REMOVAL AND IS PERFORMED FROM THE TOP OF THE VEHICLE (BLOWER REMOVAL IS NECESSARY) Aftermarket companies using the factory Ford/modified fitting tie the driver's side and passenger side head's coolant flow together and then route the coolant through the heater core and back into a metal tube that runs under the intake and terminates at the rear of the water pump for circulation back into the engine (Note: NOT through the radiator) THIS IS THE SECOND AREA WHERE THE EVEN FLOW KIT DIFFERS IN ITS DESIGN. The Even Flow Kit creates a completely separate path for the driver's side coolant and routes it directly to the radiator via a custom fabricated aluminum 'T' that installs in the upper radiator hose. The passenger side coolant flow remains in the stock configuration, except for the removal of the INNER restrictor that is located in the inlet hose to the heater core. Once the above modifications are complete, both rear cylinder heads will be flowing coolant through restrictions that are approximately .370-.390 thus maintaining EQUAL coolant flow. Additionally, two completely separate coolant paths are used instead of merging the coolant at the heater core and attempting to double the coolant flow through a single given restriction.

01-26-2013, 03:50 AM	#78
ibayter Wannabe Elite Explorer Maple, Ontario 2003 Aviator Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 21 Vehicle Specs	Mica any web site link to buy the mod, have you done it? if so which one you did?

01-26-2013, 02:21 PM	#79
Micahdogg Wannabe Elite Explorer Central IL 2004 Aviator Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 23 Vehicle Specs	I haven't done it yet. I like what Even Flow is stating though, so I would probably buy their kit. A friend of mine did this mod to his Lincoln Mark 8 32v DOHC that was swapped into a MN12 Cougar. It was only the longblock and his hood was off, and things looked pretty tight (obviously since you are working at the back of the head against the firewall). So be prepared to spend a little time, but it is a must have mod for all of these DOHC motors as far as I'm concerned. But it is much less of a concern if you drive normal.

01-28-2013, 04:21 PM	#80
Sully56 Wannabe Elite Explorer Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 7 Vehicle Specs	I'm a relatively new owner of a 2004 Aviator, and starting to have the tell-tale signs of bad coils. Any option to taking it to the dealer to trouble shoot which coil is bad? I can do the replacement, but knowing which one (or 2 or 3) to replace is the issue. Dealer wants $88 to test for which ones to replace, and I guess it could be a lot worse, but a cheaper way to go would be nice.