Where should I start looking at this electrical problem?

race bannon · 06-05-2011, 03:21 PM

Hello, I have been driving my '91 for a year and a half trouble free years!
I had an issue this weekend that has me puzzled. Drove '91 XLT to coast(approx 70min drive) for the weekend. No issues while driving but when I got there and shut off truck, 5mins later I couldn't get power lock to open the other doors. I put key in and NO power at all on anything, even the tiny underhood bulb was dead. Jumped it off and it cranked up was driving it to town and it died as I was coming to a stop(braking), jumped it again and turned around made it back to house (1/2mi). Got my hands on another battery from a marine mechanic and it cranked right up. Put my battery on charge and it said it was at 10% and trickle charged it overnight.

With new marine battery in I again cranked it and pulled the battery cables off the posts and engine never missed a beat. With battery disconnected I sat in seat to do a quick assesment of accesory usage. I put my foot on the brake and it caused a slight rev in RPM's, gauges jumped and it killed the engine. I reconnected battery and did the same thing only this time I disconnected battery and drove down driveway and as soon as I stopped at street the brakes killed the engine. I connected battery and cranked it up, disconnected battery and without touching brakes, turned on headlamps only a slight twitch on the voltage gauge and back to normal. I turned off the lights and tapped the brake and it wanted to choke down but I released the break and it idled back up, I then turned on the headlamps and it instantly killed the engine. I repeated this with new battery connected and brakes or lights or both had no effect on it. I was able to drive 70mins home today with the borrowed battery and mine as a back-up if things went bad. I made it back OK with no issues. My voltage gauge on the dash reads 14+/- volts the entire time. What should I start doing to run this down?

Iron Weasel · 06-05-2011, 03:30 PM

Take your old battery in to Autozone or some place and have it checked - make sure they load test it. Initially, I'm thinking your battery crapped out.

Might also want to verify the alternator output with a multimeter as well just to make sure it's actually putting out 14v+.

StryctNy9e · 06-05-2011, 03:32 PM

There was a few stories on here about peoples first gens would not turn off unless they toggled the lights on/off. I know it sounds bogus, but they replaced thier headlight switch and all went back to normal. I would think maybe the headlights are ran parallel with the ignition so they are somehow tied together or connected in the wiring along the electrical somewhere. I would say replace the switch, but not sure if my reply hepled you. I am just shooting things out there.Good Luck.

*Roadrunner777* · 06-05-2011, 05:21 PM

Old battery did not charge on trip out... New battery and everything's good. Truck runs without battery, charging system is good. There could be an intermittent in alternator or cables we are not catching, but first pass, definitely have the old battery charged and load tested. I think it's gonner.

race bannon · 06-05-2011, 05:22 PM

Autozone load tested my original battery after I charged it Saturday Night at 12.X volts

Alternator checked at idle at 14.6 volts. I am now officially confused.

Iron Weasel · 06-05-2011, 05:33 PM

Start at the terminal ends on the battery and work back from there. Check for corrosion, worn insulation, breaks in the wires, etc.

*Roadrunner777* · 06-05-2011, 06:23 PM

Look hard at the cables, peel back insulation, make sure there is actual copper. If you are the systematic type, get a schematic of the starting/charging system (chiltons is ok for this) and start making running voltage measurements, at the alternator, then moving towards the battery. Wiggle connections as you go. You may get to one where you wiggle it and the engine suddenly loads down. That's your big clue!

DV8 · 06-06-2011, 01:22 AM

check your grounds. had a f150 that did the same thing, and it was the main ground cable. corrosion from the battery had worked its way halfway down the cable, and there wasnt much making connection. replaced the cable and all was well... its worth a shot, and only costs about 12 bucks

race bannon · 06-06-2011, 10:23 AM

Will do, this is bizarre, but a shaky ground / cable would make sense. The brake choking it down has me puzzled.

Tony H · 06-06-2011, 11:51 AM

Everything pointed to a posible bad battery connection. I am with you as far as being puzzled. Not sure why the slight Bulb drain of the Brake lights would cause the engine to Stall. The alternator should be able to run the engine and have you step on the brakes.
The alternator might be failing. Check the battery voltage with engine of 12.5V

Start the car, see if battery voltage is 13.5 or more. If it isn't then the Alternator is not happy. And te Fuel injectors can't run well on a low voltage.

*Roadrunner777* · 06-06-2011, 02:02 PM

Voltage was weak to start out with... brakes do cause a reduction in manifold vacuum, usually not noticable, but if he was on the edge, maybe.

race bannon · 06-10-2011, 10:21 PM

My truck has been sitting unused since Monday AM at work.

I placed multi-meter on alternator at idle with pos lead (on nut diode with rubber cap on back of alternator) and (neg lead on the alum. body). It read 14.49 volts.

Back to battery read 14.44 volts, at idle.

Auto zone tested my Battery today as well and after a week it was still at 12.69 volts. With truck running and lights, radio, and defrost on high, alternator still checked out OK, 14.12V with all the accessories and then 14.38 with no load.

If I had the perfect corrosion on my batt. posts and connection that could have let my battery die. Once I took out my battery out and placed new one in I could have moved the terminals where there was no corrosion and it ran fine with new battery. After cleaning my terminals and posts (no visible corrosion) it seems to run fine as well. The only thing I can't figure out is why did it choke down without a battery in it or with a dead battery when I touched the brake and headlights if alternator is working properly? Or I might not have a problem and I could just be an idiot who didn't check for corrosion first.

*Roadrunner777* · 06-11-2011, 11:51 AM

I'm going with the corrosion answer. Why did the engine load down... I have two very questionable maybe's:

1. The ECM senses over voltage from the alternator open load and reduces engine speed to protect components from an overvoltage condition. If the battery has a poor condition, this could also appear to be an open load on the alternator.

2. The alternator uses voltage to set up a magnetic field, which is, in a sense, amplified by the rotary motion, and output. Often, there is an internal connection in the alternator so the output voltage is fed back and used as the input rotor voltage. In our case, the input rotor voltage is actually provided by an external circuit that goes through a fuse in the power distribution box. I think this is to protect the wiring against a shorted rotor.
If there were resistance in this circuit, it would reduce the ability of the alternator to create power in a no battery situation.

If #2 makes no sense to you, it's ok, it barely makes sense to me, and I still see some holes in my theory. I'm going with reason #1.

06-05-2011, 03:32 PM	#3
StryctNy9e Wannabe Elite Explorer Beaverton OR/ hayward CA 1993 XLT Exploder Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 473 Vehicle Specs	There was a few stories on here about peoples first gens would not turn off unless they toggled the lights on/off. I know it sounds bogus, but they replaced thier headlight switch and all went back to normal. I would think maybe the headlights are ran parallel with the ignition so they are somehow tied together or connected in the wiring along the electrical somewhere. I would say replace the switch, but not sure if my reply hepled you. I am just shooting things out there.Good Luck. __________________ Stryctny9e's 1993 Ford Exploder XLT on the menu.... Snorkel...Gauges.... Rhino line roof....Manual Hubs 32x11.50 M/T http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/...d.php?t=313060

06-05-2011, 05:21 PM	#4
Roadrunner777 Bemidji, MN 94 4x4 Sport 88k Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 1,258 Vehicle Specs	Old battery did not charge on trip out... New battery and everything's good. Truck runs without battery, charging system is good. There could be an intermittent in alternator or cables we are not catching, but first pass, definitely have the old battery charged and load tested. I think it's gonner. __________________ 1st Gen Fuel Pressure Not ready for prime time link list KD0SCJ

06-05-2011, 06:23 PM	#7
Roadrunner777 Bemidji, MN 94 4x4 Sport 88k Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 1,258 Vehicle Specs	Look hard at the cables, peel back insulation, make sure there is actual copper. If you are the systematic type, get a schematic of the starting/charging system (chiltons is ok for this) and start making running voltage measurements, at the alternator, then moving towards the battery. Wiggle connections as you go. You may get to one where you wiggle it and the engine suddenly loads down. That's your big clue! __________________ 1st Gen Fuel Pressure Not ready for prime time link list KD0SCJ

06-06-2011, 01:22 AM	#8
DV8 Wannabe Elite Explorer Cedar Grove, WV 94 XLT Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 72 Vehicle Specs	check your grounds. had a f150 that did the same thing, and it was the main ground cable. corrosion from the battery had worked its way halfway down the cable, and there wasnt much making connection. replaced the cable and all was well... its worth a shot, and only costs about 12 bucks __________________ 94 XLT 260,000 4.0L auto, with original engine and trans. MODS: Mile Marker manual hubs. ACCESSORIES: custom interior green dome lights, air freshener, two car seats. 95 Nissan Altima GXE 250,000 2.4L 5spd with original engine and 2nd trans. All stock, runs with a 2003 rustang gt a big enough hammer fixes anything

06-06-2011, 11:51 AM	#10
Tony H Wannabe Elite Explorer New York, Wading River (that's on Long Island) '91 Eddie Bauer Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,575 Vehicle Specs	Everything pointed to a posible bad battery connection. I am with you as far as being puzzled. Not sure why the slight Bulb drain of the Brake lights would cause the engine to Stall. The alternator should be able to run the engine and have you step on the brakes. The alternator might be failing. Check the battery voltage with engine of 12.5V Start the car, see if battery voltage is 13.5 or more. If it isn't then the Alternator is not happy. And te Fuel injectors can't run well on a low voltage. __________________ Hoffm_t@tdipower.com 1975 CJ5 with fiberglass body and 350/345Hp chevy power:bought it in '79 1985 chevy stepside pickup, 300K on the clock: Original Owner 1989 Volvo 240 300K on the clock: Original Owner the 1991 X is my newbie with 331K on the clock: bought OCT.'03 with 183K http://home.lyse.net/brox/TonyPage4.html

06-05-2011, 03:21 PM	#1
race bannon Wannabe Elite Explorer tallahassee,fl '91 XLT Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11 Vehicle Specs (Original Poster)	Where should I start looking at this electrical problem? Hello, I have been driving my '91 for a year and a half trouble free years! I had an issue this weekend that has me puzzled. Drove '91 XLT to coast(approx 70min drive) for the weekend. No issues while driving but when I got there and shut off truck, 5mins later I couldn't get power lock to open the other doors. I put key in and NO power at all on anything, even the tiny underhood bulb was dead. Jumped it off and it cranked up was driving it to town and it died as I was coming to a stop(braking), jumped it again and turned around made it back to house (1/2mi). Got my hands on another battery from a marine mechanic and it cranked right up. Put my battery on charge and it said it was at 10% and trickle charged it overnight. With new marine battery in I again cranked it and pulled the battery cables off the posts and engine never missed a beat. With battery disconnected I sat in seat to do a quick assesment of accesory usage. I put my foot on the brake and it caused a slight rev in RPM's, gauges jumped and it killed the engine. I reconnected battery and did the same thing only this time I disconnected battery and drove down driveway and as soon as I stopped at street the brakes killed the engine. I connected battery and cranked it up, disconnected battery and without touching brakes, turned on headlamps only a slight twitch on the voltage gauge and back to normal. I turned off the lights and tapped the brake and it wanted to choke down but I released the break and it idled back up, I then turned on the headlamps and it instantly killed the engine. I repeated this with new battery connected and brakes or lights or both had no effect on it. I was able to drive 70mins home today with the borrowed battery and mine as a back-up if things went bad. I made it back OK with no issues. My voltage gauge on the dash reads 14+/- volts the entire time. What should I start doing to run this down?

06-05-2011, 03:30 PM	#2
Iron Weasel Wannabe Elite Explorer Belen, New Mexico 1994 XLT 4x4 Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 589 Vehicle Specs	Take your old battery in to Autozone or some place and have it checked - make sure they load test it. Initially, I'm thinking your battery crapped out. Might also want to verify the alternator output with a multimeter as well just to make sure it's actually putting out 14v+.

06-05-2011, 05:22 PM	#5
race bannon Wannabe Elite Explorer tallahassee,fl '91 XLT Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11 Vehicle Specs (Original Poster)	Autozone load tested my original battery after I charged it Saturday Night at 12.X volts Alternator checked at idle at 14.6 volts. I am now officially confused.

06-05-2011, 05:33 PM	#6
Iron Weasel Wannabe Elite Explorer Belen, New Mexico 1994 XLT 4x4 Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 589 Vehicle Specs	Start at the terminal ends on the battery and work back from there. Check for corrosion, worn insulation, breaks in the wires, etc.

06-06-2011, 10:23 AM	#9
race bannon Wannabe Elite Explorer tallahassee,fl '91 XLT Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11 Vehicle Specs (Original Poster)	Will do, this is bizarre, but a shaky ground / cable would make sense. The brake choking it down has me puzzled.

06-06-2011, 02:02 PM	#11
Roadrunner777 Bemidji, MN 94 4x4 Sport 88k Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 1,258 Vehicle Specs	Voltage was weak to start out with... brakes do cause a reduction in manifold vacuum, usually not noticable, but if he was on the edge, maybe. __________________ 1st Gen Fuel Pressure Not ready for prime time link list KD0SCJ

06-10-2011, 10:21 PM	#12
race bannon Wannabe Elite Explorer tallahassee,fl '91 XLT Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11 Vehicle Specs (Original Poster)	Update 6/10 My truck has been sitting unused since Monday AM at work. I placed multi-meter on alternator at idle with pos lead (on nut diode with rubber cap on back of alternator) and (neg lead on the alum. body). It read 14.49 volts. Back to battery read 14.44 volts, at idle. Auto zone tested my Battery today as well and after a week it was still at 12.69 volts. With truck running and lights, radio, and defrost on high, alternator still checked out OK, 14.12V with all the accessories and then 14.38 with no load. If I had the perfect corrosion on my batt. posts and connection that could have let my battery die. Once I took out my battery out and placed new one in I could have moved the terminals where there was no corrosion and it ran fine with new battery. After cleaning my terminals and posts (no visible corrosion) it seems to run fine as well. The only thing I can't figure out is why did it choke down without a battery in it or with a dead battery when I touched the brake and headlights if alternator is working properly? Or I might not have a problem and I could just be an idiot who didn't check for corrosion first.

06-11-2011, 11:51 AM	#13
Roadrunner777 Bemidji, MN 94 4x4 Sport 88k Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 1,258 Vehicle Specs	I'm going with the corrosion answer. Why did the engine load down... I have two very questionable maybe's: 1. The ECM senses over voltage from the alternator open load and reduces engine speed to protect components from an overvoltage condition. If the battery has a poor condition, this could also appear to be an open load on the alternator. 2. The alternator uses voltage to set up a magnetic field, which is, in a sense, amplified by the rotary motion, and output. Often, there is an internal connection in the alternator so the output voltage is fed back and used as the input rotor voltage. In our case, the input rotor voltage is actually provided by an external circuit that goes through a fuse in the power distribution box. I think this is to protect the wiring against a shorted rotor. If there were resistance in this circuit, it would reduce the ability of the alternator to create power in a no battery situation. If #2 makes no sense to you, it's ok, it barely makes sense to me, and I still see some holes in my theory. I'm going with reason #1. __________________ 1st Gen Fuel Pressure Not ready for prime time link list KD0SCJ