Code 411 & Running Troubles . . . how to continue??

blakemiller · September 8, 2003

I've got a 94 Explorer Sport, 130k miles - no major overhauls, some routine maintenance.

I'm having engine troubles once again, so put my scanner to it. Engine Off test came up with Fuel Pump Circuit Open in Stored Memory. I replaced the FO Pump Relay for good measure, and cleared the code.

When I do the Engine Running Test, the only code I get is a 411, which is a "can't hold low RPM" (or similar - don't have my book here w/ me now). Does this mean it can't test any further?? Cause the engine is still running poor and there are no more codes. I've cleaned MAF, changed air filter, etc. etc. but still no go. I haven't done the O2 sensor, as it was replaced recently.

My engine is 'puttering' and has almost no power at times. Even stall it at stop lights at times. Sometimes it sounds like it's backfiring every once in a while. It seems electrical, as every once in a while, it seems to be running okay. Feels like a cylinder misfiring or the computer way out of wack. Any thoughts??

Some history, about 1 month ago when starting it cold, i heard a bang/pop from under the hood, and then a bunch of smoke bellowed from under hood. I popped the hood and the only thing I could find was one of the caps on a small manifold/pipe thing (w/ about 5 small tubes coming out, toards the left/rear of the manifold) had popped off and fell to ground. If I remember, there was some smoke/fumes coming out of the small open inlet. I put the cap back on.

Further, I pulled the Charge Air Temp sensor from the intake manifold, and found it to be completely coated w/ dirty oil. Is this okay? To have oil residue in the intake manifold??

fordkrazy · September 9, 2003

whoa man...sounds like you had a hella back fire.....unless you really want to spend some time getting into it i would just take it to a shop you trust

my guess would be a combination of cam position sensor and/or crank position sensor those are usually the symptoms of a cant hold low idol codes when you have ruled out the IAC in which i think that is since you had your vacuum port blown off by a back fire

i think the computer is confused as to where the engine is in its cycle and is relying on base timeing which is why you have no power and it sputters cause it is guessing on the spark advance (it guessed wrong the time it backfired)
and no you shouldnt have oil on the air charge temp sensor nor in your manifold...now it will have a certian degree of oily grime on it from oil fumes coming out of the crank case vent tube...but these should be minimal...if you have oil that runs in the intake then you either have the imfamous loose intake manifold ( which i guess if its bad enough it would back fire out of there and you would get your massive smoke but the engine probably wouldnt run at all or barely) the other thing that would cause the oil is worn rings on your pistons...the excessive blow by will cause those oil vapors and the oil circulating in the valve train to be forced up the breather pipe from the rise in pressure

basically it sounds like you have quite a few problems that should be looked at by a professional....but im basing that off your description of the "dirty oil"...to me that means liquid oil and not grime which means problems

good luck man...let us know how everything turns out

MrShorty · September 9, 2003

From Mitchell for '95 Explorer

15) Code 411
Code 411 indicates engine RPM could not be controlled within
lower RPM limit during KOER SELF-TEST. Possible causes for this fault
are:
* Incorrect idle airflow setting.
* Vacuum leaks.
* Sticking or binding throttle linkage.
* Throttle plates open.
* Incorrect ignition timing (Distributor ignition only).
* Throttle body or IAC solenoid contamination.
* IAC circuit shorted to ground.
* Faulty IAC solenoid.
If listed items are okay and idle is set to specification,
remove IAC solenoid and inspect for contamination. Repair or replace
as necessary. Repeat QUICK TEST. If code or symptom is still present,
replace IAC solenoid. If idle speed is not within specification,
adjust as necessary and repeat QUICK TEST. If idle speed cannot be set
to specification, go to next step.
16) Check For Conditions Affecting Idle Speed
Check following mechanical components:
* Vacuum hoses. Check Vehicle Emission Control Information
(VECI).
* Throttle linkage and/or cruise control linkage (sticking or
binding).
* Ensure throttle plates are fully closed.
* Induction system (vacuum leaks).
* Throttle body (contamination).
* Ensure CANP solenoid is not stuck open.
* Ensure base ignition timing is to specification on emission
decal.
If everything checks okay, go to next step. If fault is
found, service as necessary and repeat QUICK TEST.
17) Check For Internal Short To IAC Solenoid Case
Turn ignition off. Disconnect IAC solenoid wiring harness
connector. Measure resistance from either IAC terminal pin to IAC
solenoid housing. See Fig. 45. If reading is more than 10,000 ohms, go
to next step. If reading is 10,000 ohms or less, replace IAC
solenoid. Repeat QUICK TEST.
Fig. 45: IAC Solenoid Schematic (4.0L)
18) Check IAC Circuit For Short To Ground
Turn ignition off. Leave IAC solenoid disconnected.
Disconnect 60-pin PCM connector. Inspect terminals and repair if
damaged. Install Breakout Box (T83L-50-EEC-IV), leaving PCM
disconnected. Measure resistance between test pin No. 21 and test pins
No. 40, 46 and 60. If any reading is less than 10,000 ohms, repair
short to ground. Reconnect components, and repeat QUICK TEST. If all
readings are 10,000 ohms or more, go to next step.
19) Check IAC Signal From PCM
Turn ignition off. Connect PCM to breakout box. Reconnect IAC
solenoid. Set DVOM on 20-volt scale. Connect DVOM between test pins
No. 21 and 40. Start engine. Observe DVOM while slowly increasing and
decreasing engine RPM. If voltage is 3.0-11.5 volts, remove IAC
solenoid and inspect for contamination. Repair or replace as
necessary, and repeat QUICK TEST. If voltage is not 3.0-11.5 volts,
replace PCM and repeat QUICK TEST.

I posted a link to this file (gtest.pdf) once. If your local library has Mitchell, Motor or other professional manual (usually in the reference section) you can find the entire EEC-IV testing article that contains the pinpoint tests and other information.
Hope that helps.

MrShorty · September 9, 2003

And, when checking for vacuum leaks, don't forget the possibility of a leak from the transmission vacuum modulator. With the mention of oil in manifold, this could be a possibility. A leaking diaphragm could allow ATF to be sucked into the intake.

TPLYNCH · September 9, 2003

Vacuum Leak - my .02. Be sure your lines are all connected/capped and the Vacuum Modulator is sucking tranny fluid. Have you checked the tranny fluid level lately?

blakemiller · September 9, 2003

Originally posted by TPLYNCH
Vacuum Leak - my .02. Be sure your lines are all connected/capped and the Vacuum Modulator is sucking tranny fluid. Have you checked the tranny fluid level lately?

Thanks all of ya!!!! THis will be an interesting journey, i can tell.

Good point TPLYNCH & MrShorty. I have not checked the level, but did notice yesterday that i have alot of fluid on bottom of tranny and it looks like it's been there a while - so I can assume the level is low. Could this be some cause of what's going on?? I'll check this first, but likely not till tonight or tomorrow.

blakemiller · September 9, 2003

Thanks again to all!

I'm still wondering, will other errors be present even with a 411 hindering the test? I've had the 411 in combination with others, both in the past, and here too.

During one run of this test the other day, i got a 538 also which reports as 1) insufficient RPM change OR 2) invalid cylindery balance test - throttle position movement OR 3) Invalid cylinder balance test - cylinder id problems. Howevever, it doesn't come across during every test run.

More history, about 3 years ago, i couldn't get CEL light off and had to get reparied for Smog. THe shop told me that I had codes 186, 189 and 214. 214 is Cylinder Identifacation Failer (CID). Co-incidently, this is also one of the options of 538 above.

Now, the shop did a few hundred $$ worth of work, and part of that included something with Cam Position Sensor. I think they replaced it. I don't have paperwork here, so not sure, but i'm almost positive. FordKrazy, you mention this so it has me wondering.

But overall, why am I not getting any more codes than 411?

To be continued . . . . thanks again!

fordkrazy · September 9, 2003

was that the order of the codes? cause the CID failure shouldnt happen....that means you either have a bad ECU that is unable to properly test itself or the ICM is bad and not sending the proper responces back to the ECU. Either way that would indicate to someone who isnt looking hard enough to think of the cam position sensor as the culprit. Also that is like the distributer for a DIS in that it needs to be "dialed in" for timing purposes. if that is off it can cause the ECU and ICM to report trouble codes due to unexpected values on that sensor. now the reason i ask the order is because the codes are stored in the order they are reported, meaning that the first code is most likely the problem and the rest are caused by the first. I know the procedure posted above is usually the proper route to take for trouble shooting this type of problem but in your case i think you will waste time messing w/ the IAC and other idol SPEED adjusting sensors. I believe you have a serious timing problem caused by

1. a incorrectly installed CPS
2. a short in the ICM/ECU wireing
3. a bad ICM/ECU

I would start w/ the first and go from there. the second will be very time consuming and you will need an electrical schematic and a good DVOM. If you can get the ECU and ICM tested off-vehicle i would do that before you go into the wireing (not sure if the dealer would do this for you but i know they can)

here is a link to trouble shoot the CPS.....it says the 91-95 4.0 doesnt have one but im 99% sure the 93+ and maybe 92's have them
http://www3.autozone.com/servlet/Ui..._us/0900823d/80/0d/3a/43/0900823d800d3a43.jsp

blakemiller · September 11, 2003

Well, just in from some more troubleshooting.

I checked the IAC solenoid, per Autozone's check, and it looks okay. No short to ground, and solenoid resistance is 10.2 ohm, well within 7-12 per Autozone. Though I don't have a break-out box, so wasn't able to check running conditions.

I found the CMP (CPS) sensor . . . I think it's okay, and I'm glad cause that looks like a bear to replace. I popped the connector, and checked the Control Voltage per Autozone recommendation. It was 12.2 (=battery) . . . well above limit. Again, don't have a break-out box so i couldn't do any running tests.

So I ran the engine with the CMP disconnected. I immediately got a Check Engine light. So I checked my codes.

I did the KOEO and got a 214 which is Cylinder ID (CID) sensor failure. (Note, this was similar to what was found 3 yrs ago by shop)

I then did KOER w/o the CMP and again, got the single 411, nothing else.

I cleared the codes and re-connected sensor, and got a 111 w/ KOEO, then the 411 after the KOER.

One other thing, I could have sworn the engine idled smoother w/ the CMP disconnected. I didn't take it out to see if it was still underpowered and sputtering. I may re-do this and take better notes. so I don't mislead any of this.

Could this still be the CMP? I will state that the CMP is the new one that the shop put in, still shiny and such. I would hate to think that such a sensor could go bad twice. And it's been running good on the new sensor for last 2.5 years, so I would question if it was a faulty installation. Could we be getting into the PCM here??

To be continued . . .

fordkrazy · September 12, 2003

i would absoluty rule out the CMP as the culprit....then i would say you have a bad PCM or ICM....the CMS is used for calculating the spark advance and the CPS (crank position sensor....sorry for the confusion) is used for base timeing...if you drive it without the CMP plugged in you will get the same driveableity problems as you are experianceing and may even die when you press the gas since there are no advance profile readings comeing in. The reason the idol smooths out when you unplug the CMS is that the computer is totally relying on base timeing for the spark curve or lack of a spark curve and actually since it does smooth out that may mean that your ICM is ok since when it gets no data from that sensor it defaults to a base timeing profile. If it were bad, more than likely it would run worse if you unplugged the sensor as it would still try to run with a spark curve. you really cant go by the sensor values when troubleshooting this problem because that is for testing the sensor operation. as i stated before the CMP is like a distributer in that if you rotate it, it will change the base point that the timeing is read from. the ICM and PCM expect certian values at certian times which is why it needs to be adjusted and installed properly (setting #1 to TDC and aligning the gears up to the tic mark on the body of the sensor...just like a distributer) an after market sensor is essentially the same unit but will vary slightly from part to part...the OEM part is tested for acuracy and can be installed without adjustment as long as the proper installation procedures are followed. Many will tell you that OEM and aftermarket sensors are the same and for the most part thats true but quality control is much less with the aftermarket (thats why they are cheaper) and some sensors that are very dependent on precision are not available from aftermarket companies. Im not sure if the CMP is available from aftermarket or not but if it is im sure thats whats in there. it probably needs to be reinstalled to be sure of its position....it also could not have been tightened down enough and it slipped some.

all being said....i would take it to someone you trust....if it were me..i would go to the dealer....you will pay a preimum... but 90% of the time from my experience it will be fixed correctly.

Good luck with your repairs.

blakemiller · September 14, 2003

So I'm confused as what you're saying. You begin by saying that you would rule out the CMP pointing towards bad PCM or ICM, but then discuss all the reasons why the CMP may be bad.

Also, from what I've seen (mostly from the Autozone Link), it's confusing as to whether or not the the CMP for the 94 Explorer requires TDC alignment?? The alignment procedure is listed for the 1991-94 2.9L and 3.0L Engines, while the 4.0L SOHC Engine (VIN E) simply says install into position and bolt down.

After thinking about all this, if the CMP can "slip" or become mis-aligned or loosen, it makes sense as to what's going on. I'm going to do that unplug test again to check.

I found the paperwork from my last shop visit., and they reported a 186, 189 and 214 - but unsure if that was the exact order, it happens to be in chronological order here, so maybe that's just how they listed them?? They cleaned the MAF which sounds right, and also "found the CMP to be defective - replaced." Not sure how they found this . . .

One further note, the invoice listed a "Reprogrammed ECM" and tried to charge $238.50 for this. Can the ECM be reprogrammed??? I thought this was truly a black box device. I fought the entire deal, cause they originall estimated 400 for the whole project and tried to charge 800+ so i don't think this was actually done, or at least paid for.

All in all, i will likely take it into a shop, and start w/ Ford as what you say is true. . . Find someone you trust?? Haha! I've been burned by 2 separate shops in the past, that was 2 for 2 so far.

I just want to better understand myself, as I don't trust shops further than i can throw them. I wish I could do this all myself, have the capabilities, but not the time or facitilites to do anything beyond maintenance.

Thanks again for all the help, any other advice is definitely welcome

fordkrazy · September 14, 2003

sorry for the confusion. Im not saying the CMP is bad itself but it may be causeing the problem by being out of adjustment. the system for the 4.0 is the same as the 2.9 and the 3.0 the only major differance between these engines is displacement. Now if the CMP is in proper adjustment then i would go to the ICM.

and no you cant reprogram a 91-early95 EEC...they are OBD-I...only OBD-II can be reprogramed or "flashed"

blakemiller · November 15, 2003

Fix or Ditch???

Okay, so I'm re-viving this old thread. I finally took my 94 Explorer Sport (130k miles) into the shop - the Ford Dealership to do a full diagnostic and evaluation. As of today, my Ford is still running the same: sputtering, very low mpg, very low power at times (even stalls on certain uphill starts say from a red light on a hill.)

In a nutshell, Ford said "it's nothing obvious or anything coming up in the computer." They said it's likely a valve problem (either intake or exhaust) and that it would require an overhaul to actually determine problem and then likely fix it. He said it could be $900-$1,100 to do though I'm not sure exactly what this would get but he did mention new valves. What about Head Gasket, new piston rings, etc.??

Ford was really good about the whole thing . . . in fact, they didn't charge me a dime (even the few gallons of gas they added - though I'm not sure why . . .) Normally would have been $110 for the diagnostics & check.

First, does a probable valve problem sound right? Would this explain oil in the intake manifold? To me it does sound legit . . .

Second, should this be something I pursue furhter? I realize it's a good time to buy a new car, but I love this Explorer and I also went "window shopping" and wasn't too impressed with what's out there these days, especially for the price tags. However, I would also feel fine about putting $1000 in to 1) get a new lease on life and maybe get another year or two out of it and 2) I really don't want to start up 300-400/month payments . . . something I've been free from for years now

I'm assuming that if I had this work done, I'd see a very noticable difference in performance, mpg, power, etc. - all of the things that have degraded alot over the last few years. So again, i wouldn't mind dropping a grand or so to get this all back, and have it last for a few more years.

I may have made the mistake of informing the Service guy that I "may be interested in a new car" I say this because Ford was pretty quick at saying "You may want to think about getting that new car you mentioned - It's not worth going further." I don't know, just somehting I wish I hadn't mentioned ahead of time. But his prognosis sounds legit. . . ?

Anyway, any feedback would be appreciated. Thanks and happy Exploring

fordkrazy · November 15, 2003

that sounds like it could be the problem ....or they are blowing smoke up your you know what.....if it were a valve problem it will make lots of rattleing unless the valve were burned up....the only way thats going to happen is from a prolonged ignoring of a computer/emissions problem and/or using low quality gas (7-eleven) where the valves have lots of carbon build up and eventually begins to melt due to the carbon retaining heat. (if you have those conditions and you run into one of those overheating situations you can say bye bye to your exhaust valves) now that could definately be caused by your timeing problems described before but it still is no explination for the oil in your intake.

i would get a second oppinion because the only way to know you have valve problems is to tear it down...especially if you dont hear a lot of rattle

as far as getting that new car......an old car is always cheaper than a new one. you will have increased insurance premium, and that monthly payment, taxes will be higher, title fees all that junk as im sure your aware of. droping a grand a year into a paid off car that has low taxes and ins. premium would probably cost less or near the same as a new one....but i doubt you would have to do that.

blakemiller · November 16, 2003

Thanks Fordkrazy. Regarding the valves, I will say that every once in a while, I hear a loud bang or "whack" usually when under high torque at low RPM (like accelerating onto a highway) It's the same sputtery, low power performance, but sounds really nasty. Usually only once or twice during an acceleration.

I totally agree with all of the "new" expenses. That's why I"m trying so hard to get some confidence in moving ahead with the repairs.

I'm still reluctant in getting a second opinion (at least someone besides Ford) I've had terrible luck with shady shops. Maybe I'll try a second dealer, without any of the previous "volunteered" information. I'll play totally ignorant at first . . . see what they tell me

Okay, thanks again, to be continued . . .

fordkrazy · November 17, 2003

well.....bang and whack under a load in the olden days meant you had piston slap...but with a 130k i doubt you have that. after digesting all the info above this is the conclusion i have come to....you have an engine with a lot of miles that is known for post 100k valvetrain problems. you probably have weak valve springs, a streched timeing chain which can cause variance in timeing conditions and collapsed lifters which reduce the intake/exhaust flow since the valves dont travel quiet as much. now if the CMS was replaced with these conditions there is no way to get it calibrated to its proper position since the timing chain is streched. That is more than likely what is causeing your poor performance. Now the poor performance can degrade the valvetrain even further since the computer is constantly trying to compensate for the wide variety of timeing conditions. (the streched timeing chain and worn valvetrain can also cause a rich/lean condition since due to the bottom end slowing down/speeding up faster than the top end resulting with even lower valve travel which just adds to the things the computer has to compensate for)

my advice is to spend 2 grand and buy an entire rebuilt engine and have it swapped...i have heard good things about jasper engines. This will save you time rather than just your valve train rebuilt and will probably cost the same (ford just wants to do the valves wich 900-1100 sounds about right but you need a timeing chain and a cam to get it done right which will put you to about the same mark as a total swap for a rebuild)

good luck and let me know what you decide.

Code 411 & Running Troubles . . . how to continue??

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