Help with Timing Chains on 4.6 V8

[racprops]

OK I need feedback on this problem: Timing chain repairs.

I have a 03 4.6 making some noise, the timing chains guilds are going. From the markings they were replaced at some point on the 03 timing chain replacement warrantee.

The Truck as 202,000 on it.

I am an old timer have driven a 2000 Mercury Grans Marques and a Crown Vic and are on a number of face book and web sites for them and these Explorers.

I have read over and over again and again that a lot of the time about 60 to 80% of the time all that is needed is the guilds.

That the sprockets and chains often do not suffer a lot of wear.

The nose was not so loud and I even considered it might be a idle pulley or some other belt driven problem so removed the fan and removed the serpentine belt to test it.

The noise was still there. My nose is mostly there at idle and get quite with higher RPMs.

I have a mechanic that wants to replace: Everything: Guilds, hydraulic pressure tensioners, chains, sprockets, oil pump, oil pressure sensor, cam sensor, perhaps a valve cover, or two, and Front seal and timing cover gaskets.

And he quotes $1600.00 to do all of that. And yet does not include a oil change of filter.

And this is the parts he wants to use, which he as telling me were made BY Ford, not for Ford.

href="https://www.carparts.com/details/Fo...t/Timing_Chain_Kit/2003/KIT1-021314-01-B.html">https://www.carparts.com/details/Fo.../2003/KIT1-021314-01-B.htmlstyle='font-family:"inherit","serif"'>
OK I am looking at the timing chain set above with oil pump.

First it is NOT saying anything about being made by Ford nor Motorcraft, (Which he claimed) Carpart is saying it is Replacement kit Manufacturer #KIT1-021314-01-B from Taiwan. (China adjacent) Which can mean they could buy their parts from China.

I called and waited some 30 minutes to check with Carparts.com and they told me where these came from. And that they have a one year mileage warrantee.

Which is no good as the labor is the killer.

This does not include the valve cover gaskets, front seal, timing cover gaskets, or the sensors like oil pressure and other stuff he talked bout.

He also talked about some hollow bolts that have an oil hole in them and can be broken when a torque wrench is used to tighten them.

Also I would think those special oiling bolts would be best replaced and not reused.

So engine builders and repairmen, which is right??

Rich

PS read the other threads on timing chains…no clear answer.

 

[Number4]

Car isn’t probably worth that much. If the guides haven’t broken, you should be able to get away without doing the oil pump.
I’ve done two of these jobs, 150k on one vehicle and 207k on the other. I reused the sprockets In both cases and the chain on the 207k.

Tensioners, guides, chain if you want. The NAPA guides I bought said **** CO on them. They were Cloyes brand.

You don’t need to do any sensors, necessarily. I had to do the power steering pump pulley both times as my removal tool leaves marks inside it.

 

[drdoom]

It's usually just the cheese whiz gaskets on the back of the two hydraulic tensioners. They always blow out and lose oil pressure right there. On mine it was causing some start up rattle.
The plastic all looked like new, I'm thinking that was around 150,000 miles or so.
That of course is not always the case, some engines I understand have more wear.
But the tensioners are internal, so you have to pull the front off to replace them. That's a lot of work, so I see the mechanic's professional judgement & responsibility is to replace everything in there (don't forget the oil filter adapter gasket, that's the one needs replacement most likely) while doing the job.

 

[boominXplorer]

If the guides are broken then those peices have made its way to the oil pickup. It would be silly to do the timing chains without at least pulling the oil pan to clean debris. At that point you might as well do the oil pump too. Only "special" bolt needed is a new tty crank bolt. Get a cloyes timing set without gears if you want to be cheap. You'll need timing and valve cover gaskets along with oil pan.

 

[racprops]

"Only "special" bolt needed is a new tty crank bolt."

Is that a one use bolt??

Rich

 

[boominXplorer]

Yes

 

[racprops]

If the guides are broken then those peices have made its way to the oil pickup. It would be silly to do the timing chains without at least pulling the oil pan to clean debris. At that point you might as well do the oil pump too. Only "special" bolt needed is a new tty crank bolt. Get a cloyes timing set without gears if you want to be cheap. You'll need timing and valve cover gaskets along with oil pan.

From all my research there seems to be three types of failure: Wear, the guilds are worn down, Breakage, a common one is one piece, a mounting tab brakes, and the hydraulic tensioners, and their seems to be three possible problems: 1) "It's usually just the cheese whiz gaskets on the back of the two hydraulic tensioners. They always blow out and lose oil pressure," 2) they stick, 3) and a plugged or broken oiling bolt (if such a bolt is real).

It seems wear will leave small fine junk in the pan, I think what is left will be caught by the filter is it is in suspension, and will also flow out when the oil is changed. The most common breakage drops seemly only one large part which can sit in the pan for ever...it is too big to get anywhere.

The remaining problems may not have caused and wear or any damage as it may just be lack of proper tension on the guilds.

From my research my problem is still minor, As this more serious problems have not happened:

"When the timing chain guide (1) breaks, the chain drops down. The chain tensioner (2) attempts to take up the excess slack in the timing chain. When the tensioner piston extends, the chain is pulled tight. Removing this slack on one side of the chain also causes the cam sprocket (3) to rotate and change camshaft timing on that bank."

"Rotating one cam sprocket disturbs valve timing relative to the other side of the engine. This can cause a rough idle can set diagnostic trouble code (DTC) P0300 and codes for lean and rich operation."

My truck does not have a rough idle nor has it thrown a P0300 code and I checked it with a good scanner and it is has no pending code either.

All she has is a noise, and it is not any idler or device on front as I removed the fan and serpentine belt and started it for a couple of seconds.

So I think it is still minor, and thus chains and sprockets will not be needed and as that is part of the hard parts to replace and keep in correct time I will leave them as is.

Rich

 

[drdoom]

Rich I haven't been inside one of those engines in a while, but I seem to recall the chains and sprocket(s) are marked for timing.
I remember that the camshafts did need holding device to keep them from rotating whilst the timing parts are being replaced.

 

[boominXplorer]

If you have noise besides at startup one of your fixed guides are broken, no doubt the chain is touching the timing cover because the guide is missing. You can be hypothetical all day but until you actually pull the cover you won't know. The passenger side fixed guide is the first to go.

Unless it's all highway miles and you've always used a good oil filter with check valve a 4.6 isn't going to make it much past 200k on original guides.

Chains have marks but they stretch so should be replaced. The gears are fine to reuse.

The oiling bolt your referring to is for a 3v engine only. Doesn't pertain to your 2v engine.

 

[racprops]

Thanks.

I totally agree, and yes "You can be hypothetical all day but until you actually pull the cover you won't know. The passenger side fixed guide is the first to go."

And I will strongly consider: "Chains have marks but they stretch so should be replaced. The gears are fine to reuse."

I will look into getting the holding tool kit for that.

And thanks for this info: "The oiling bolt your referring to is for a 3v engine only. Doesn't pertain to your 2v engine."

More proof of his BS.

 

[boominXplorer]

You don't need a holding tool to do the 4.6 timing. Yes they make one but you just line up the dots on the chain. Put keyway on crank up to 12:00 with cam dots towards the top and take it all off. Reassemble drivers side first then passenger side. You may need to put a wrench on the cam gear to move it to line back up.

 

[racprops]

You don't need a holding tool to do the 4.6 timing. Yes they make one but you just line up the dots on the chain. Put keyway on crank up to 12:00 with cam dots towards the top and take it all off. Reassemble drivers side first then passenger side. You may need to put a wrench on the cam gear to move it to line back up.

Man you have been so good until now...the pressure from the lifter will turn the cams, EVERYONE says to hold the cam other wise it will twist and valves will hit Piston one and piston six which is not good even with the non-running engine.

Rich

 

[boominXplorer]

Last I checked you have to be almost 180 degrees out to have ptv contact on these. As long as you do it with the key straight up the passenger side is the only one that will jump and it might go 30 degrees tops. You can also turn the motor over a few times without an oil filter on by hand to release the pressure in the lash adjusters (lifters) so you don't have to worry about the added pressure.

I wish I can find a pic of a 4.6/5.4 with the keyway at 12:00. It either there or at 10:00 you can freely turn the cams because each piston is recessed at least .75".

BTW did 4.6 chains on an e250 van yesterday, only because the belt tensioner blew up and took out the cover. Put metal all into the chains but still drove it in.

 

[Number4]

The passenger side cam sprocket has holes in it. Shove a large, long screw driver through the socket and wedge it against the head. Forget where I did it, but it’ll be obvious with it open.

 

[racprops]

This is all the videos on this:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=replacing+timing+chain+on+ford+4.6

All the ones I have watched say to hold the cams one guy did it with a pair of vise grips, the other with cam holders, another has a pair of special clamps;

Then there is this AGCO report:

In 1991 Ford Motor Company introduced their first modular V-8 engine. This was for the 1991 Lincoln Town Car and the cylinder displacement was 4.6 liters. The engine is popular and is produced in a number of displacements. They also build two, three and four-valve per cylinder versions with different cylinder heads

The Ford 4.6 liter and 5.4 liter engines power millions of SUV, truck and car models. The Ford Modular engine is well engineered, but it is designed for specific lubrication. The oil viscosity and the type of oil filter can mean the difference between reliable service and an expensive repair.

Why the proper oil is so important​

The modular engine is an overhead cam design. Two very long timing chains keep the camshafts in time with the crankshaft. Because of the length of the chains, guides are needed to reduce movement. They also use a hydraulic tensioner to keep each chain tight. Oil pressure moves the tensioner which controls slack in the timing chains. These components rely heavily on proper lubrication from the engine’s oil.

Ford originally specified a 5W30 motor oil for the engine. They soon found this caused oil consumption and possible catalytic converter problems. This caused a change in the specification to a 5W20 or a 5W20 synthetic blend. It is also believed the lower viscosity oil can travel to the timing chain tensioners more quickly. The oil filter they designed for the engine also has a specific anti drain-back valve and for good reason.

The anti drain-back oil filter​

With a substandard oil filter the engine oil may drain back to the oil pan when the engine is turned off. A lack of oil pressure means the tensioners cannot immediately tighten the timing chains on startup. When this occurs, slack in the chain tends to jerk and the plastic timing chain guides can break.

The problem of broken guides on the timing-chain​

We see many Ford modular engines with broken timing chain guides. The first symptom is usually a rattle on the start up. Because the timing chains are so long, they are supported by plastic guides. The timing chain is kept tight by force from the hydraulic tensioners. With the proper lubrication and the right oil filter this works very well for a great many miles. Problems begin when improper viscosity oil and substandard oil filters are used.

With a substandard oil filter the engine oil may drain back to the oil pan when the engine is turned off. A lack of oil pressure means tensioners cannot immediately tighten the timing chains on startup. When this occurs slack in the chain tends to jerk and the plastic timing chain guides can break.

Symptoms of a broken timing chain guide can range from a rattle noise on startup (not always) to rough idle to a check engine light. This engine was fitted with the proper Motorcraft filter after the noise started. Unfortunately it was too late to prevent an expensive repair. The guide on the left bank is broken and the check engine light has come on.

A broken chain guide is apparent, once removed and compared with a new part. The guide most often breaks where the mounting bushing passes through. This allows the chain to drop down and often it starts to rattle, until the tensioner removes the slack.

When the timing chain guide (1) breaks, the chain drops down. The chain tensioner (2) attempts to take up the excess slack in the timing chain. When the tensioner piston extends, the chain is pulled tight. Removing this slack on one side of the chain also causes the cam sprocket (3) to rotate and change camshaft timing on that bank.

Rotating one cam sprocket disturbs valve timing relative to the other side of the engine. This can cause a rough idle can set diagnostic trouble code (DTC) P0300 and codes for lean and rich operation. Many times these engines come to us, after having been mis-diagnosed elsewhere. Needless part replacement has often been a further waste of money. Repair involves timing cover removal and replacement of the chains, guides, tensioners, etc. Changing to the proper oil viscosity and a Motorcraft oil filter, prevents an expensive repeat of the problem.

Replacing the timing chains​

To replace the chains and guides, we must be certain to align the camshafts and crankshaft. If valve timing is not properly set, the valves may hit the pistons and cause severe engine damage. Timing a Ford modular engine is not a simple task. Articles on the internet state, not turning the camshafts or crankshaft allows replacing the chains without timing the engine. This is very dangerous at best and may cost an engine. It also fails to recognize cam timing is already off when a guide breaks.

Ford recommends a series of special tools to hold the camshafts and crankshaft in place to install the timing chain. Many special tools are available but three will suffice, for simply replacing the chains

Rotunda-tool number 303-413 or equivalent, plugs into the hole in the end of each camshaft and provide a means of alignment. This tool has slots on each side. Tool number 303-380 engages these slots and holds the camshaft in precise alignment. The base of the holding tool rests on the top of the cylinder head. A third tool is available to hold the crankshaft in position. Rotunda-tool number 303-448 slips over the snout of the crankshaft and prevents movement. With these tools the camshafts and crankshaft are precisely positioned while we install the chains.

Buying such special tools is very expensive and some may try to get by without them. In many areas of the Country these tools are available for rental. Part stores and rental centers lend these out, for a price. An auto repair shop, closed on weekends may also be willing to rent these. Without the proper tools, paying someone qualified to replace the chains is less costly. Tearing the engine down once is difficult. Having to take it apart to re-time the engine is really bad.

Timing chain problems can be greatly decreased by a few simple steps​

Use the proper viscosity of oil specified for the engine

Change oil according to the severe maintenance schedule

Use synthetic blend or full synthetic where specified

Use an OEM oil filter on the engine

curiousB - July 14, 2018
Perhaps oil viscosity is a compounding factor in the failure of the guides but I believe it is fundamentally a weak/poor design. The passenger side is known to fail much more often than the drivers suggesting some subtle geometry or gravity impact. The requirement for hydraulic pressure to tighten the chain is a consequence of the mechanical spring being too weak to apply sufficient pressure while oil pressure builds. Had a more robust spring been designed into the tensioner then ramp up of oil pressure would be less critical.

Then there is the attachment of the plastic guides to the aluminum frame. It is only 4 very tiny plastic tabs with a very small overhang. A beafier connection of the plastic to the metal frame would likely result in fewer failures. Perhaps an adhesive in addition to the tabs would have secured the plastic guide better to the frame.

If the difference between 5w20 and 5w30 is a major factor in reliability then I suggest the underlying design fundamentals are substandard.

​

The other two versions are a tool that engages some of the cam spocket teeth but they only supply one...and something like the tool below but with a clamp system to hold the cam from turning.