HELP! 2011 Explorer new engine?!?!

[sienna2]

2011 Explorer 87, 000 miles.
So 4 months ago, my water pump went and I paid $1200 to fix. (Long story but back and forth to dealer because in the process they cracked oil pan, but in the end all was good and running well.) Recently engine starting to click and make spinning noise when accelerating. Dealership has had my car 2 days now and finally just said they figured out it's a bad engine. Found metal flicks in the oil. They said could just replace timing belt but that's "dicey" and don't recommend. Getting back to me on price but range for new engine 5-7 K. UGH! Please, I need advice. Do I replace or not? Thank you!

 

[reserved50]

I say its not worth it, did they say exactly what the click is or are they just not sure whats making the sound and called an engine. If the water pump leaked internally did they warn you it may have done engine damage previously?

If it really does need an engine I would try for a used one first with under 60,000miles, should be half the cost. Possibly consider trading it in at the dealer after they give you a quote for a used engine even though its apart, as long as they are fair with price and just move on to something new.

 

[sheltonfilms]

Let's just say it's a rod bearing knock. If it hasn't been going on long you can do a "backyard rebuild" as I call it.

My wife's Mazda Millenia ended up being 2 1/2 quarts low on oil and developed a rod knock. Using the push a rod through the spark plug hole method I found out it was the #6 rod bearing. Bought a new bearing. Dropped the oil pan. Emory clothed the rod journal with a shoe string and oil. Put new bearing in. Plastigauged it. Torqued. Put about 15k on it since and no issues. Total cost: $50 plus oil change.

Rod Knock testing method:


Backyard Rebuild:

 

[J_C]

^ I would presume that is beyond the scope of what someone who paid (a quite high, IMO, not knowing why that many hours) $1200 for a water pump. That cost also tells me that the dealership probably charges a premium. The $5K I would assume is only the engine, not labor included. "Maybe" $7K is, but it wouldn't surprise me if that still didn't include labor.

A new engine could cost that much but I would sooner get a used low miles or crate rebuilt, which could run you anywhere from $1000 to $3000 or more depending on which one and which engine it is.

Labor depends on their billable hours but you should be able to find someone to do it for a little under $2K. I would call around to local shops, not dealerships.

 

[sheltonfilms]

^ I would presume that is beyond the scope of what someone who paid (a quite high, IMO, not knowing why that many hours) $1200 for a water pump. That cost also tells me that the dealership probably charges a premium. The $5K I would assume is only the engine, not labor included. "Maybe" $7K is, but it wouldn't surprise me if that still didn't include labor.

A new engine could cost that much but I would sooner get a used low miles or crate rebuilt, which could run you anywhere from $1000 to $3000 or more depending on which one and which engine it is.

Labor depends on their billable hours but you should be able to find someone to do it for a little under $2K. I would call around to local shops, not dealerships.

1200 is actually cheaper than what others have paid/been quoted (as high as 2500).

Labor time for just water pump is 10.8 hours. You have to remove the intake manifold so you can remove both valve covers (they cover the top of the cam sprockets). Then the front engine cover and timing components because the water pump is INSIDE THE FREAKING ENGINE!

 

[J_C]

^ Wow, on all of the engine options or just certain ones? Through DIY repairs, I am not so sure that the sum total of all repairs I've done on my old '98 have reached $1200 yet, not counting tires/oil/etc.

 

[reserved50]

problem is if it is a worn bearing, shops usually don't take kind to suggestions and will say no warranty on any work performed. They did mention that changing the *chain?? (doesn't have belt) is probably the cause of the issue not a bearing, so who knows whats going on.

^ Wow, on all of the engine options or just certain ones? Through DIY repairs, I am not so sure that the sum total of all repairs I've done on my old '98 have reached $1200 yet, not counting tires/oil/etc.

all 3.5s on FWD platform, 1200$ is pretty cheap, chains on the SOHC 4.0s when they get noisy require engine removal so they get up there in price also.

 

[J_C]

^ It seems like you're trying to equate the two in cost. I'm pretty sure the owner of a 5th gen will end up spending a lot more. Unfortunately that means me too since I have one, but fortunately I didn't make the mistake of buying one with Ecoboost. Granted I don't drive 30K mi. a year so I don't need the small fuel savings.

 

[bigdude2468]

Not just AWD, all 3.5 liter engines have the water pump internal in all Ford models.

 

[Sixonemale]

2011 Explorer 87, 000 miles.
So 4 months ago, my water pump went and I paid $1200 to fix. (Long story but back and forth to dealer because in the process they cracked oil pan, but in the end all was good and running well.) Recently engine starting to click and make spinning noise when accelerating. Dealership has had my car 2 days now and finally just said they figured out it's a bad engine. Found metal flicks in the oil. They said could just replace timing belt but that's "dicey" and don't recommend. Getting back to me on price but range for new engine 5-7 K. UGH! Please, I need advice. Do I replace or not? Thank you!

I did a quick check on the used price of your Explorer assuming it was 2WD and guessed on the other options, but did not add that many and also assumed it was in good condition. In general your Explorer is worth about $12,000 to a private party, give or take. You've already put $1,200 into it and whether the new engine is $5k or $7K, that would result in total of $6.2k or $8.2k or over half the value of your Explorer. So, unless you are in love with it or are in a position where a new/used car would not make sense then you repair it, otherwise enough is enough and you put the new engine cost toward a new/used car and get rid of it. I have no idea what the value of it would be without a running engine, but let's assume around $5k or less.

Unfortunately I think several owners will be confronted with this same situation if they hold onto their Explorers long enough. An older thread stating the reasons why:

http://www.explorerforum.com/forums...ter-pump-failure-leads-to-dead-engine.424482/

I truly hope and believe the redesigned Explorer will put the water pump external to the engine block where it was on all other generations of Explorers.

 

[reserved50]

Cost is usually less on RWD 3.5 engines to change water pump, easier to do. You mentioned the 98 model you have didn't cost that much to repair, a lot of them did have worn chains in the first 5 years, I'm sure the owners of the 2nd gen would have had their vehicle repaired also when it was fairly new.

^ It seems like you're trying to equate the two in cost. I'm pretty sure the owner of a 5th gen will end up spending a lot more. Unfortunately that means me too since I have one, but fortunately I didn't make the mistake of buying one with Ecoboost. Granted I don't drive 30K mi. a year so I don't need the small fuel savings.

 

[sienna2]

Sorry, I had only seen the first reply but somehow missed the others until now. The water pump is apparently in a different place starting with the 2011. The price I paid was actually $1392 which was with a "discount." They had to remove the engine to fix pump which was the reason for cost, so they said. They broke the oil pan in the process and who knows what else because I had to take it back 3 times after that (long story). They didn't charge me for the additional work each time to replace the oil pan again and then again because it was defective. Also replaced a cam?, spark plugs and forget what else. A comment was made from service rep that that technician "wrote his exit ticket" and they put the Senior Tech on it. Like I said all was ok for a few months until last Thursday. They did mention the timing chain being stretched but recommended a new engine. Said there were metal flecks In oil but took 2 days to figure all this out. As of now they gave me a loaner and the GM called me last night to say they filed a case and would try to help me. However, he was clueless to what happen a few months ago until I told him. Still waiting to hear back from them. Does it sound to anyone like something they did before created this problem? Waterpump never actually "went" initally nor did engine, just sounds, but I know they are related. Should I be doing something else? Thanks for your help!

 

[sienna2]

Also, the price quoted for engine was $7900. Yikes!
Spoke with two different mechanics who said $6400, $3500 for one with 50,000 on it.

 

[sienna2]

Cost is usually less on RWD 3.5 engines to change water pump, easier to do. You mentioned the 98 model you have didn't cost that much to repair, a lot of them did have worn chains in the first 5 years, I'm sure the owners of the 2nd gen would have had their vehicle repaired also when it was fairly new.

I have the 2011 model, 87,000 miles

 

[J_C]

Cost is usually less on RWD 3.5 engines to change water pump, easier to do. You mentioned the 98 model you have didn't cost that much to repair, a lot of them did have worn chains in the first 5 years, I'm sure the owners of the 2nd gen would have had their vehicle repaired also when it was fairly new.

There will always be Red Herrings but no, the average 2nd gen did not have any significant (costly) issues within the first 5 years and 100K mi. Timing chains were more often around 10 year mark and 150K mi, a significant difference, almost double the mileage of the vehicle this topic is about, and apparently less than half the cost when all is said and done based on the figures the OP is reporting.

However not until now was a water pump significant, a mere water pump is something expected to fail within the viable life of a vehicle if it was maintained and treated well, but used to only be a ~$40 DIY repair until 5th gen.

As I've already stated, the total lifetime repairs on my '98 are lower than the $1200 (now $1392) water pump alone, and will remain that way until I have an engine or tranny failure at which point I'll probably retire it so it never had that high a total cost. You could say I'll suffer loss of bluebook value at that point, but so does every vehicle at its end so that can be ignored.

Granted, I'm similarly not implying that every 5th gen will have this problem before 100K mi, but it is not looking good for long term cost of ownership when basic things cost over $1000 more to repair.

 

[reserved50]

Only time will tell if this gen Explorer will have the same low mileage issues such as timing related failures as 2nd gen, so far the water pumps failures are few and far between percentage wise. Theres a huge advantage in the current generation Explorer, the engine or transmission doesn't have to removed like the 2nd gen to repair it unlike the 4.0L engine. Seems like you were one of the lucky ones to only spend 1200. Many had the previously mentioned engine issues and transmission failures which probably caused the resale value of the entire lot to plummet.

http://www.explorerforum.com/forums...ain-rattle-resolution-process-sohc-v6.278100/

 

[182RG]

Does it sound to anyone like something they did before created this problem? Waterpump never actually "went" initally nor did engine, just sounds, but I know they are related. Should I be doing something else?

Yes.

If your water pump was leaking internally and diluting the engine oil, it is highly likely that it trashed bearings in the process. Likely the source of your "metal flakes". It just took some extra mileage to catch up to you. Frankly, your dealer did you no favors by just fixing the water pump the first time. There was already damage in play. You missed your first opportunity to unload it right after the fix.

I strongly recommend fixing and unloading it. Find a local shop that has experience putting in a used engine from a salvage yard. It will probably run you $3K. Then, take it to a detailer, spend $300, and have it thoroughly cleaned and prepped inside and out, and immediately trade / private sale it. Seriously, make it a future problem for someone else. You should take your loss, and be done with it.

 

[J_C]

Only time will tell if this gen Explorer will have the same low mileage issues such as timing related failures as 2nd gen, so far the water pumps failures are few and far between percentage wise. Theres a huge advantage in the current generation Explorer, the engine or transmission doesn't have to removed like the 2nd gen to repair it unlike the 4.0L engine. Seems like you were one of the lucky ones to only spend 1200. Many had the previously mentioned engine issues and transmission failures which probably caused the resale failure of the entire lot to plummet.

http://www.explorerforum.com/forums...ain-rattle-resolution-process-sohc-v6.278100/

It's not that I'm not aware of the issue, it's that you're trying to make it into more than it is. Quite a few of them are still on the road today, as it was the more popular engine from '97-'98 till gen III. There would be even more on the road if it weren't for Cash-For-Clunkers program (that required it be a running vehicle). Resale value today is little different than the V8 version.

It is good that the newer engine doesn't have that issue but fairly irrelevant if everything else swamps it in cost. Most gen 5 owners won't DIY replace that so it's still a $1000 repair due to labor, and then another $1000 if it makes it to 200K mi so you're at the chain change interval again.

You wrote "so far" few need the water pump changed, but it is an expected repair over the life of the vehicle. I'm not arguing what will it cost if you sell it before it gets a few years old because then the cost of ownership goes up even more because you suffered the most on depreciation.

I'm not picking on gen 5 Explorers, this is a general trend seen throughout the auto industry, but even more relevant with higher complexity vehicles like SUVs. They now take more specialized skills, higher cost parts, and more often need more parts pulled if not the entire engine pulled to do a repair.

Additional subsystems requiring much greater expense are things like the electric steering rack, LCD dash display, LCD infotainment center, sheer # of airbags, strut towers, lift gate strut/motor, high battery drain requiring more frequent battery replacement, and more.

There's a reason that old timers drive 30 year old pickups with a pushrod V8 and a carb on it, low repair costs.

 

[Sixonemale]

Only time will tell if this gen Explorer will have the same low mileage issues such as timing related failures as 2nd gen, so far the water pumps failures are few and far between percentage wise.

Agreed that so far it appears there have not been a lot of water pump failures for the 5th Generation Explorer posted in this forum, but the 5th Generation is still quite young and not very many owners have a lot of miles on their vehicles. Should we begin to see more water pump failures in the future, I do think that the Explorer owners will be a bit more vocal about it than owners of other Ford models with this same engine. Why do I think they will be more vocal, because many Explorer owners have owned an older generation Explorer in the past and are used to reasonable maintenance costs and not having anything go wrong that could cause catastrophic engine damage. This design this engine with it's internal water pump and potential damage it can do to the engine is new to many of us 5th Generation owners.

If you Google some of these words in different combinations, Ford, 3.5L, Duratec, Water Pump, failure, etc., you will find plenty of owners who have run into problems with their 3.5L engine water pump and some with seized engines due to it's failure.

 

[Eject]

I've seen dealers pull shanianigins like this. They may be trying to get you to buy a new car and take your current car as a trade-in, so they make on all sides. My advice is to get a 2nd opinion from a reputable mechanic who knows these cars well.