Water pump failure leads to dead engine

[Odrapnew]

Regarding the double gasket design, is it the single gasket failing causing the leak into the crankcase? Or, is the leak around the shaft seal?

My experience with other water pumps(external) is that the shaft seal starts to fail causing a leak out the weep hole. I don't think I've seen the gasket fail.

mcpcartier - are you able to see where the leak was on the pump? You mention leaking out the weep hole, where does it leak out of the pump to reach the weep hole?

 

[peterk9]

NOTE: see post 531 above FYI

Peter

 

[bigdude2468]

Reminds me of the old 2.5 Duratec V6 that had the water pump on the "back" of the engine, driven by a separate belt. Kind of an odd design.

Wonder why we haven't seen an electric water pump similar to newer power steering pump systems. Mount the pump anywhere they want.

 

[mcpcartier]

Regarding the double gasket design, is it the single gasket failing causing the leak into the crankcase? Or, is the leak around the shaft seal?

My experience with other water pumps(external) is that the shaft seal starts to fail causing a leak out the weep hole. I don't think I've seen the gasket fail.

mcpcartier - are you able to see where the leak was on the pump? You mention leaking out the weep hole, where does it leak out of the pump to reach the weep hole?

The slot in the bottom right corner of this picture is the path to weep hole. In order for it to leak through that slot you have to be very lucky. The initial failure of the gasket needs to be directly next to the slot. If it fails anywhere else it leaks directly into the oil pan. I like concentric gaskets....no matter where the internal gasket fails it leaks out the weep hole. I guess the danger is if the outer fails first then the internal you'd have a leak to the weep hole and the oil pan at the same time.

 

[VCFP153]

Wonder why we haven't seen an electric water pump similar to newer power steering pump systems. Mount the pump anywhere they want.

There are electric water pumps for certain racing applications, but I imagine the reason why we haven't seen more of them may be that you would essentially be adding another failure point, and one that could lead to further problems. That is to say, in addition to the pump being susceptible to leaks and mechanical damage like a traditional water pump, you would now also have the possibility of electrical failure as well. Mind you, said electrical failure may not even be with the pump itself, it may lose current for some other reason, but it would still cause overheating, engine damage and other calamities. An EPAS failure is not a good thing either, but it won't likely cause other failures. The vehicle will most likely remain steerable, if not altogether comfortably.

 

[Sixonemale]

The slot in the bottom right corner of this picture is the path to weep hole. In order for it to leak through that slot you have to be very lucky. The initial failure of the gasket needs to be directly next to the slot. If it fails anywhere else it leaks directly into the oil pan. I like concentric gaskets....no matter where the internal gasket fails it leaks out the weep hole. I guess the danger is if the outer fails first then the internal you'd have a leak to weep hole and the oil pan would be at the same time.

Thanks for photo and explanation, it certainly helps to understand a portion of this design flaw, knowing that the other portion of the flaw is that the spindle can loosen up and become unstable causing a leak. I'm somewhat shocked that ACDelco, not Ford/Motorcraft, designed it with dual gaskets. I'm still trying to figure out what the difference is between the Ford/Motorcraft second generation water pump vs the third generation water pump that some say is improved. If it is improved, there should be documentation somewhere stating what the improvements specifically are.

 

[imp]

Good discussion. Question about point raised regarding longitudinal mounting, engine length: did the pump get tucked under the timing chain cover without increasing it's depth? Sounds like a difficult thing to achieve, IMO, because the pump bearings require spacing between them, whereas the camshafts are supported over their entire length, not requiring a long overhand in front, just enough for sprockets.

I had a Ford Fiesta which started getting hot coming home from work. Looked under hood, could not believe my eyes! Water pump shaft had broken, but instead of the pulley and shaft piece falling off, clearance between the pulley and inner fender tower was so tight, the pulley was wedged between the tower and the broken shaft ends, which met together at an almost straight line. The friction between the broken shaft ends was keeping the pump turning, but much slower than normal. The pulley rubbing the tower sounded like metal screeching. It got me the rest of the way home!

This was not made up! imp

 

[sheltonfilms]

The slot in the bottom right corner of this picture is the path to weep hole. In order for it to leak through that slot you have to be very lucky. The initial failure of the gasket needs to be directly next to the slot. If it fails anywhere else it leaks directly into the oil pan. I like concentric gaskets....no matter where the internal gasket fails it leaks out the weep hole. I guess the danger is if the outer fails first then the internal you'd have a leak to the weep hole and the oil pan at the same time.

1st seal wall doesn't have to fail. What you don't see is the slot leads up to the shaft journal. There are probably two seals. First is a shaft seal right behind the imperial and then the bearings and then another shaft seal before the sprocket so it's like this: impellar-Shaft seal-bearings-shaft seal-bearings-sprocket. The slot leads up to the bearing compartment so when the shaft seal facing the impeller gets compromised the fluid goes through the channel into the slot, into the block, and out the weep hole. The seal behind the sprocket keeps the leak at bay so it can be detected and fixed in time.

Only real issue is if the o-ring gets compromised from the pump to the block. Then it just leaks into the crank case with no warning. To me this is where the concentric design would be better. But maybe they are thinking they improved the pump enough not to worry about it and made the single seal to offset the other design change.

 

[mcpcartier]

1st seal wall doesn't have to fail. What you don't see is the slot leads up to the shaft journal. There are probably two seals. First is a shaft seal right behind the imperial and then the bearings and then another shaft seal before the sprocket so it's like this: impellar-Shaft seal-bearings-shaft seal-bearings-sprocket. The slot leads up to the bearing compartment so when the shaft seal facing the impeller gets compromised the fluid goes through the channel into the slot, into the block, and out the weep hole. The seal behind the sprocket keeps the leak at bay so it can be detected and fixed in time.

Only real issue is if the o-ring gets compromised from the pump to the block. Then it just leaks into the crank case with no warning. To me this is where the concentric design would be better. But maybe they are thinking they improved the pump enough not to worry about it and made the single seal to offset the other design change.

I wish I knew this before I started. Would have kept the old water pump and tested that to see it with my own eyes. Well....next time (hopefully not for another 5 years...or more).

 

[96eb96]

I don't understand what having a push rod design versus overhead cam has to do with the water pump. Both push rod and OHC / DOHC engines are OHV. Plenty of OHC or DOHC engines have external water pumps. My understanding as pointed out many times in this thread is that the transverse mount of the engine did not leave room for a water pump. It has also been reported that the new Ex will change that with the engine mounted longitudinally and the water pump will be external.

If the DOHC 4.6L V8 (Cobra Engine) Lincoln Continental and similar V8 Taurus SHO from the late 90s had an external WP, hard to understand why the Explorer couldn't. Very rare for those modular pumps to leak. People usually change them for PM.

 

[peterk9]

If the DOHC 4.6L V8 (Cobra Engine) Lincoln Continental and similar V8 Taurus SHO from the late 90s had an external WP, hard to understand why the Explorer couldn't.

Transverse engine. No room for external pump. Should be remedied with the redesigned 2020 with the longitudinal engine.

Peter

 

[96eb96]

Transverse engine. No room for external pump. Should be remedied with the redesigned 2020 with the longitudinal engine.

Peter

Hmm.. These cars I mentioned are built on the old Taurus/Windstar platform. Transverse! They are both V8 FWD cars. I own a Lincoln Continental. It is a FWD Mustang Cobra of that year. The WP pulley is about 1/4" from the frame.

 

[blwnsmoke]

As Peter stated, the only reason it is internal is because it would not fit externally. This is exactly why the F150 has an external pump on the same engine.. because it is turned for RWD.

 

[96eb96]

As Peter stated, the only reason it is internal is because it would not fit externally. This is exactly why the F150 has an external pump on the same engine.. because it is turned for RWD.

I know, but if the old Taurus platform could fit a DOHC modular v8 transverse, I would think this Explorer could, but maybe not.

 

[sheltonfilms]

Maybe they should have went with an inline electric water pump. It's what's on all the Mercedes we build, even the AMG ones. Can you imagine 2 hose clamps, a bracket, and an electrical connector to replace one? Weird how a Mercedes is easier to fix than a Ford.

 

[steelers06steelers]

Internal water pumps are not a new concept, im not sure why people are bashing ford for this. I remember changing them back in the late 80's or early 90's when I was doing timing belts, they were driven off the timing belts yes. and speaking of stupid, timing belts are a really stupid idea.....

As for the comments of changing your coolant early to save the water pump, this does not make sense to me either. The bearings are failing and causing the shaft seals to leak, I cant see how changing the coolant would help with internal water pump bearing failures?

 

[sheltonfilms]

Internal water pumps are not a new concept, im not sure why people are bashing ford for this. I remember changing them back in the late 80's or early 90's when I was doing timing belts, they were driven off the timing belts yes. and speaking of stupid, timing belts are a really stupid idea.....

As for the comments of changing your coolant early to save the water pump, this does not make sense to me either. The bearings are failing and causing the shaft seals to leak, I cant see how changing the coolant would help with internal water pump bearing failures?

Timing belts aren’t stupid on non-interference engines, but those are few and far between on today’s engines. Now a timing belt on an interference engine, yeah that’s asking for trouble. Seen many of a VW 1.8 head get destroyed because of a bad timing belt.

As far as changing coolant, if there are seal conditioners formulated in the coolant and they degrade over time then this could help with simple seal failures.

A bearing failure is flat out unavoidable.

 

[Sixonemale]

Timing belts aren’t stupid on non-interference engines, but those are few and far between on today’s engines. Now a timing belt on an interference engine, yeah that’s asking for trouble. Seen many of a VW 1.8 head get destroyed because of a bad timing belt.

As far as changing coolant, if there are seal conditioners formulated in the coolant and they degrade over time then this could help with simple seal failures.

A bearing failure is flat out unavoidable.

We own a Lexus with an interference engine and replacing the timing belt at 90,000 miles or at the 10 year mark is critical since an interference engine can be destroyed if a timing belt fails. If the timing belt is changed at these intervals the engine will easily run into the hundreds of thousands of miles.

I’m actually a fan of timing belts on both interference and non-interference engines, because when you replace them at around 90,000 miles, you also change out the water pump, drive belt and all associated pulleys which in many cases is what can make timing belt fail. The water pump is not internal on the Lexus or vehicles that I’m thinking of like Toyotas, Hondas, etc., so if it leaks the engine has no chance of seizing unless the owner disregards temperature and the engine over heats. The huge advantage of a timing belt kit being replaced is that you have peace of mind for the next 90,000 miles or 10 years, whichever occurs first.

I also agree with your thoughts about coolant and that a bearing failure on anything that spins at medium to high RPMs is unavoidable.

 

[hpad06]

found these 2 videos explain why water pump failed on edge, it appears the pumps failed from the inside

 

[massacre]

What happened to limp mode?