"Chuckling noise"

[ahodges]

Ok, so this is more of a venting about my problems thread I guess. 2.5 years ago I bought a rebuilt engine from Proformance Powertrain Products for my 96 4.0 OHV explorer after having repeated head gasket problems. I currently only have about 30,000 miles on the engine and I started making the chuckle noise. It only would do it after the engine was warm and within 1,000 miles of an oil change (when the oil is the cleanest). I had various people listen to it and the consensus was that the timing chain tensioner or chain was loose. As many know, the engine has to be removed to replace the timing chain. Well anyhow, I pulled the engine and replaced the chain, tensioner, guide, both sprockets and found a bad push rod and rocker which I also replaced.

Well wouldn't you know after putting it all back together, the noise is still present. What's left to do?? I originally thought lifters, but at 30,000 miles? Besides that no mechanic thought it was those either. To make it worse though, in order to replace the lifters, the heads have to be pulled and the dealer advised against that unless it was absolutely necessary. And also, each lifter for the 4.0 OHV is 30 some bucks a piece...

Sorry for the long rant/ story. I'm at a loss and getting very frustrated with it. Any input would be very appreciated.

 

[Rudy602]

I'm not familiar with the "chuckle" noise but I'm fairly certain that the timing components in the OHV can be changed without pulling the motor since they're all right in the front. The SOHC has a more involved timing system that can't be completely replaced w/o removing the motor. Both are 4.0, just different designs.
- lifters at 30K? - Did they use new lifters on the rebuild? Unfortunately, if you want it done right you either have to do it yourself or pay someone you know is qualified, and even then - you never really know what's going to pass for "good enuff"

 

[ahodges]

Yes the engine has to be removed per the ford manual and the All Data. The oil pan has to be removed to get the timing chain cover off and like I believe it is on the SOHC engines the oil pan is aluminum and bolted to the transmission.

The main reason I didn't replace the lifters is that the heads have to be removed to do that. I was advised not to do that unless i was certain that it was the lifters and nothing really has pointed to it being them since the noise is so constant and goes away imidiately after reving the engine ever so slightly.

I'm know that the rebuilders didn't use all new parts because the tensioner had way more wear on it than it should have and it has 3 different rocker arm manufacters in it. I'm very unpleased with proformance.

 

[Rudy602]

I wasn't suggesting that you change the lifters, I was just pointing out what you apparently already know - that most rebuilders are scavangers and will use parts that won't last. I'm not trying to argue with you about procedure since I haven't replaced the timing parts in my OHV but I know people on this site have - without removing the motor. I don't doubt ford says you have to - that way they can add more decimal points to the repair bill. If I were more computer savvy about posting links I could direct you to some threads but search if you want. I guess it's a moot point now anyway. You probably already know your choices but feel free to run any by that you want feedback on and thanks for the lowdown on Proformance.

 

[ahodges]

No no i didn't think you were arguing. Sorry if i came across like that. I'm sure you can understand that i'm just frustrated. And it seems as if no one has ever heard of this problem I'm having. Usually the timing chain doesn't go bad on an OHV... from what I've heard...

And I don't disagree that the timing chain probably could be replaced with the engine left in but I really don't see how you would be able to seal it back up nicely with no oil leaks. Anyhow whats done is done and that part really doesn't matter anymore.

I bring the lifter thing up because I don't know what could be left to make the noise. Do you?

 

[SoNic67]

Did you check what's you REAL oil pressure? Not with the dash board gauge, that's just a "dummy" one.
I have added a true mechanical pressure gauge (a cheap one) by installing an 1/4" extension and "T" in the oil pressure port.

 

[ahodges]

personally I have not checked that. but the dealer said they did and that it was ok. You are the second person to say something like that though. That might be the next step.

 

[Rudy602]

Since I can't hear the noise it's just a crapshoot but are you familiar with bearing noise? Again, something I would suspect from an unscrupulous rebuilder.

 

[ahodges]

Yes I am pretty familiar with bearing noise. That really never crossed my mind since I just took those for granted in an engine (aside from rod bearing and the normal wear items). I hate to ask this but I have never had a cam out before. Are there roller bearing on the cam or just on the crank?

 

[Rudy602]

Like I said, I've never had one of these apart but I'm pretty sure it's just like any other motor. The crank and cam bearings aren't a roller bearing with moving parts like a wheel bearing, they're a composite or alloy or layers of different metals that form a surface that another piece of metal [like a crank or cam journal] rides on or in. A thin layer of oil is all that keeps the whole thing from seizing up tight. A good reason to change your oil a lot if you want it to last.

 

[ahodges]

Yeah thats how I thought they were but I thought that the end bearings might be different. I have taken the rods out of an engine before so I do know what you're talking about. Like I've said I've done a lot of engine work but have never rebuild one myself yet. It might happen at some point.

If the oil pressure is low, that points to the oil pumping being bad, and the obviously the oil pan having to come off again.. :/

 

[Rudy602]

There's lots of reasons for low oil pressure, nothin's easy, huh? Too much bearing clearance, bad oil pump, clogged oil pump strainer clogged oil galleries, who knows? You might as well check the pressure as it's a good indicator of general motor health.
You probably had to give up your old motor for a core, huh?

 

[ahodges]

Oh yeah, no chance that I have the old one anymore. It had repeat head gasket problems anyways. Well I can give you a little history on the new engine.

I installed it 2.5 years ago. I have never gone more than 4,000 miles on an oil change using Motorcraft synthetic blend 5W-30 and a Motorcraft oil filter. Every time I take it apart there isn't a trace of sludge. Also, as the engine broke-in, it used less and less oil to the point now that it bearly uses 1/2 quart between oil changes. It sounds strong other that that noise.. I do know that the oil pump was new when I put the engine in (well as far as I know), but that is standard practice when putting in a new engine. But, I also know that the oil pump is aftermarket, which I'm not excited about.

And no, Nothing is ever easy...

 

[Rudy602]

Well it's a PIA to hook up a real oil pressure guage but not compared to putting a new oil pump in so I'd bite the bullet. If it says you have problems then maybe you'll get to build one after all. If not, at least you know the core of the motor is sound and take it from there. Before I did anymore I'd want to know about the oil pressure. SoNic67 did one on his - had good pics and I saw a guage mount that goes on the door pillar that looked good, too, - not sure if that was in the same post or one of 2000StreetRod's

 

[ahodges]

ok sounds good. That will be the next step. It might be a while before I get to doing that but I'll let you know what it is when I do, or if I get the problem figured out before that (very unlikely though).

Thanks for your input and suggestions!

 

[Rudy602]

No problem - Good Luck.

 

[SoNic67]

Haha, mine is the one not "looking good"
It was a "temporary" install but looks like it became permanent... I am still experimenting with seafoam, turbo-diesel oil...

I would post more pics tommorow (loks like I lost some of them), but there are from a 5.0 so I don't know how helpfull would be. Below are pics taken befor the mod - view from the driver side wheel (removed the shroud and wheel). You can see the hole where I inserted latter the 2-1/2"x1/4" extension and T (with pink teflon tape on the threads). It would be better to be even longer - easyer access and less skin left on the metal parts.

And a plug for if and when I remove one of the sensors (I am not taking the 'T' out anymore):

PS: All pipe fittings from Lowe's plumbing - there are not listed as "auto grade" but I cannot see why not use them. Used pink teflon tape on the threads because is high temperature rated. I was worry that would isolate the electrical grounding of the dummy switch, but it didn't - I bet in some place metal cut the tape because of the torque and made contact on block metal.

 

[Rudy602]

-all those sensors and all we get is a glorified idiot light - beautiful

yeah, that's it, a real guage! thanks!

 

[ahodges]

ok, thanks, I'll deffinatly be doing this. What pressure should it be running at idle warmed up?

 

[SoNic67]

Mine has no lifters noise at 40PSI. I would be happy with 20PSI, but it drops at 12-15PSI now (with 5W-40 oil). Haynes manual lists 50-60PSI but it doesn't say what condition. I never saw mine past 50PSI.