Ricks Bronco: 1and 1/2

[janderson4010]

 

[rookieshooter]

I call this a good start and that's all it is. But it does give you an idea of the vision that's floating around in the clouds of my coffee.
Could just punch in numbers in my link calculator... No personal satisfaction out of that, just a little too geekish for me... At lest for now.

The blue arrows are the 4 rivets that may need to come out to modify this part of the bracket so i can install the top link bracket (yellow).
Then from there the top link (white) will go to the center section of the axle which will be high on diff. There there will be a separation of both top links at that point. They will not converge into one joint.
Then the bottom link bracket (yellow) will be installed on the bottom of the brace turned toward the end of the axle. The more angulation from centerline of the frame the more lateral bracing of axle I'll achieve.
The perspective of the lines are not accurate. Hoping to get a little converging of the links at the bracket end.
As in the vertical mounting distance from bottom to top. Exampe would be 12" at the axle end and 7" at the frame end. Then there would be a definite Instant center instead of a neutral set up. Nothing more then extending an imaginary line through both those links to a fairy tale point out there. But it does exist and the links will act as if they are attached to that point...maybe ha ha. Sounds good anyway.
And if it don't work I'll blame FireZapper anyway. Cause it was his plans he drew in the dirt up at last years Truck or All Ford Nationals in Carlisle.
No computer Pansy a@# build here. No sir, just "Good Ole drawn in the dirt" plans
One other thing while I'm rambling on, this should for what it's worth qualify for a long arm suspension with the plus 30" links.

Cool pic of the Badger. Like the way it was designed with the low COG. Rear axle must be a 60 or D70 with same for front. Check out those claws, great on the dirt, may be a problem on rocks though. Love the satin black on silver paint job also.

 

[janderson4010]

are you calling me a pansy for using a link calculator and having an idea of how my suspension was going to work before I built it? Of course the best and worst plans are drawn in the dirt or on a ****tail knapkin. Seems like you have a handle on how its going to operate. I just get nervous bk I say a kid who threw his link setup together front and rear, but the antisquat properties were so far off that his rear axle would load and unload going up hillclimbs, as a result ping there went a d60 axle shaft

yeah the honeybadger is a brick ****house, prob on rockwells all the way around haha

 

[rookieshooter]

On the drawing there is a key element not shown. I'll get to that later.
Even if you have the best brains and computer programs available to set up a suspension system as in a top sponsored NASCAR team running on tracks as smooth as a babies butt. They do the one thing that I hope I can do here.
Now back to the Key Element. I'll say this as succinctly as possible. "Have built in adjustability".
Just an inch change one way or another on the top link and look out...there goes the front or rear up or down or neutral.
Never did I see this more evident then when I crewed on a Late Model Sportsman dirt track car. Several as a matter of fact.
Hagerstown Md has a famous dirt track that's only a few miles from my house.
Then their's Winchester Va which is also famous.
Reminds me, have to make plans to see the WOO race their.
On one of these cars that my friend bought from a NASCAR fabricating shop it came with a book on how to adjust the linked suspension. Iim not kidding when I say it was as thick as a telephone directory.
Then think about it, how many times do you hear about the pit crew changing the link set up on a nascar cup car during a race.
And then throw all the factors on a Trail/Rock rig as track conditions change.
So on this Dbl tri link system their is just no way to get it right for all conditions, hense the adjustble thing...If I can get all under the truck?

But right now I'm still fabricating this thing up. Talk about angles!
But I like the way it will flow with the original cross member. Plus it will be welded to it also.
Have to take the exhaust off to get measurments for the pass side of this.
Once made I'll put back the exhaust. But be nice to have it made in advance.

 

[FireZapper]

You are replacing the stock all together right? Not adding this to it? The stock stamped steel piece will not hold up as a link mount.

 

[rookieshooter]

Zapper thanks for your input. Here's what I'm thinking of doing. The new piece will be built as if there is no stock member with plenty of gusseting and connected to both R and L frames. With the links %100 percent connected to the new cross member.
I should have said that in the pic of the drawn link tabs.
If there was anything left of the original I was just going to weld it to the new one at the ends just for extra gusseting. Also going to add some bracing at ends for lateral strength also. These will come off the ends at an angle then to frame.

In fact in the last pic is the added rectangular tubing that will go to and set on the frame at the lower lip. Then another will be added for top connection with the lateral bracing added also. Just trying to get a lot of things ready so once i start ripping things out it won't take so long installing, I hope.

Right now the radius arm links that are on the truck now are connected to the stock cross over bolts that run through the side of the frame.
But might just remove the bolts and then the stock cross member can be removed all together then just replace bolts to hold on the radius arm brackets. The stock member does a good job of keeping every thing lined up while making this cross member for now.
What's your idea on connecting to frame? Welded, bolted or welded and bolted?

 

[janderson4010]

I'll say this as succinctly as possible. "Have built in adjustability".

hell yes! HELL YES! I kick myself every day for not building some adjustablity into my upper link, my rig is a terror on the road bk my upper link is to flat, I will also say that is where I departed from the plan set up on the link calculator, its 2" lower than I input into the calculator and as a result my antisquat is like 160%, I was shooting for about 125%. good call as usual man.

Firezapper do I have to come all the way to the east coast to get a dirt drawn 4 link plan?

 

[FireZapper]

lol I just planted the seed, he is running with it.

sounds better Rookie

 

[rookieshooter]

lol I just planted the seed, he is running with it.

sounds better Rookie

It just took some time to grow

Here it is the first Tri-angulated B2 cross member...maybe ha ha.
Just add some plate to the sides and some latteral supports and it's the strongest thing on the truck.

Just did not want a lot of structural bracing going under the drive shaft to the other side. Could even use the plate, if I do in fact put it on the side to mount the links that will come off the top of the diff. Including several mounting points to adjust the torque load to frame.

 

[janderson4010]

Just add some plate to the sides and some latteral supports and it's the strongest thing on the truck.

good heck man you took all that time to make ur bII light and now youve added it all back in with one crossmember

 

[rookieshooter]

good heck man you took all that time to make ur bII light and now youve added it all back in with one crossmember

I know I know, but it's needed. Now it's 3/16" not 1/4" and once the stock cross member is trashed it's not all that much heavier...I think. But later on when that 5.13 is coupled up with the Atlas and those larger tires are planted with the the ARB engaged and that V8 is trying to twist it's self out of the engine compartment, I don't want those links coming up through the floor board between my legs...Wife would be upset. Plus need some weight from mid way back, just as long as it's low.
Now take into consideration that there is only one cross member,not two like some guys have. One for top links and one for bottom.
Plus the way gas is going up, I won't be able to keep driving it anyway.

But also take into consideration, if you don't have a fine running torque producing V8, you could just use Reynolds wrap for a cross member cough cough... just saying

See ya, need to get some sleep, I'm brain dead from trying to stay one up on this young gun from Utah.

 

[rookieshooter]

The brackets in black will be on the other side, but it shows how I think it will be done. The left hand side is the one that will go to ends of axle. Those links will attach to center of axle tube and remain flat, so I'm not worried about adjusting here.
The upper right brackets will be mounted on a plate with adjustable mounting points to direct the torque of the axle at frame. It will come off top of diff housing.
Without using all those goofy sounding terminology let's just say it effects how the body reacts once torque is applied or even not applied coupled with COG, tires, braking and such.

 

[janderson4010]

:
See ya, need to get some sleep, I'm brain dead from trying to stay one up on this young gun from Utah.

I hope your not saying im from utah, im no carrot snapper! btw my 4.0 will spin donuts on my driveway even with my krawlers, I know bk I just drove it down the driveway to get the mail

I think that cmember will be strong enough for your upper links, a lot of people just use 1 3/4" tube, I think you are in the clear.

 

[rookieshooter]

I did have exhaust in the way on the pass side. My original plan was to get the new cross member ready to go in once I started removing the 88.
But I think I'll be able to have my cake and eat it to. Just as long as I can leave the outboard radius arms intact, I may just go ahead and install the new one as long as I can get it 100% installed. But we know how plans go.

Notice anything different? No left hand side on the crossover going down to bottom of frame, only the one piece top.

Same for the right. And hope to make it up to the steel mill before they close.

I'll decide whether to leave the top C or not once the new X member is made. No use taking it out if I don't have to. The main thing about using it is the amount and angle of the top link,it may be too high. Might as well try to get fairly close after doing all this work instead out of convenience.
I do believe that mounting it on the new x member might be better in that reasoning. But we will see. May even tie the top C into the new X just for grins.

 

[rookieshooter]

Took 9 pieces to make the main frame for this Xmember.
I've have the bottom of the brace sitting on the lower lip of the frame and just touching the stock one piece brace at the top. The on piece is a stout support structure, and if I can get all the links on the new brace I'll then weld the two together at the arrows. See below pics.

Just have the upper right hand side laying there for now, I'll weld it up tomorrow and then do the other side. Once those are in I'll be better able to locate the far end link tabs. They will be the ones off the top of the diff.
Other two will be lower and near driveshaft. They go to the outer ends of the axle.

Red is the links off of top of diff

Blue are off the end of axles.

May have to drop the tabs for the lower links at the Xmember.

But no low hanging X member going from side to side under drive shaft. And best of all...No TRACK BAR.
Hope to get some lateral supports in today and some link brackets.
I'll have to put on my aluminum foil hat to come up with an east coast terrain geometry lay out. Not speed but hooking up the traction under a number of variables like roll center, roll axis and the all mighty Diddily squat. So with that in mind I'll design the top link so the Instant center can be move to give me a certain number as in less then 100% or more then %100 AS number. I hope ha ha. But first I need to get some good degree numbers coming off the axle pertaining to the links and I'll make sure there are some good separation numbers also as in vertical separation. Removing that gas tank just keeps getting better and better.

Well it looks like another day of fabbing up...God there's just something about the looks of a Kleenex after blowing your nose after a hard day on the Chop saw and grinder.

And the comment that broncobra said about a B2 makes for a good platform is just so true. Unless your worried about the dip sh#ts out there ha ha.
Not implying anyone on this site.

 

[rookieshooter]

Getting serious now. This angle should line up with the outside of the D70.
This will have a good angle as far as lateral positioning of axle. I hope.

The other tab was a little more tricky fabbing up cause it had to be welded on the piece of the Xmember that was angled up. Once it was positioned exactly against the bearing spacer, all I did was to insert a hole finder and give it a tap.

You can see that the tabs are pointing toward the axle ends.
But somethings got to go.

The way the cage is tied into the chassis there was no movement whats so ever once cut was through.

Strange, the more I add the more room I have. The upper brace going to the top of frame is just sitting there for now. Still need to finish the welds on the tabs. Also before I do the other side with the angled piece I have to find out if I can weld it all up or just one side and then finish other side after it's slid in.
The brackets for the top of the diff will be installed in the area of the large battery cable going through the Y part.
I may just put a flat plate there for now. Reason is I want some adjustability in that bracket. Like holes every 2" or so. It be simple if it was just a matter of drilling holes but it's not. Since the link will move on a radius when moving up or down, so the holes must follow that curve also.

But like a said earlier the top link will have less separation then the axle end.
I'll have it a little shorter also.
Then there will be some tri angulation supports at frame ends of the X member.

 

[janderson4010]

dont you want your uppers to be about 75% off the length of your lowers? what kind of squat are you shooting for? I know that you aren't plugging this into the computer or anything but are you going to be pos or neg squat? the crossmember looks awesome, i don't think strength will be an issue at all.

 

[rookieshooter]

dont you want your uppers to be about 75% off the length of your lowers? what kind of squat are you shooting for? I know that you aren't plugging this into the computer or anything but are you going to be pos or neg squat? the crossmember looks awesome, i don't think strength will be an issue at all.

The uppers will be shorter and will be mounted behind the Y part, but still connected to it.
Don't have an exact number yet. But yes as a geneal rule of thumb 75% is not bad.
Now what I'm shooting at is 50 to 75% seperation of links at the crossmember end. There's just so much torque that has to be controlled. And that number will be determined in part by the exact amount at the rear separation between top and bottom at axle end. I'm not having any adjustment there.
But won't know until on the trail. What will really tune this in is changing the Instant center by changing the angle of the top link. at frame end. This will really let me change the Anti squat #s. And this could change dramatically with only a couple inches by moving the top linkg. It was like the RA system I have now. I was able to change from pos to neg.
i loved the way I did not built it one way concerning pos or neg. Especially since this is still street driven.
But with this system I'll be able to adjust even more. Now I may have to change some bracket lengths but this will be determined by actual trail rides and on street.
Those computer numbers are good starts but no way dictate how it really does on the trail or street. One day I might want the rear to lift up and then one day be nutral.
Would really like to use the truck scales to get some numbers with the tires lifted up the right amount while the truck is weighed and then do the math to get the exact COG.
I like the story about how this professional built crawler, may have been at the Hammers had lousy numbers on the print out but still out climbed them all. There's more to it then just AS numbers.
But I'm not going to get into all those numbers. If I was doing all the same trails with all the same factors, then Id use my computer.

I think the main thing is to keep the bottom as flat or parallel . Have about 9 to 12" seperation at the axle. Have plenty of angle built in when looking down on the truck, having the top a little shorter and generally pointing down and about 50% or so less seperation at cross member then the axle end seperation and then just wheel the thing. Cause there's time i want high ASs and some time nutral to low ASs. The last thing I want is to be locked in to one number. Maybe when it's taken from street/trail to just trail. But for street give me high AS numbes lol. And that means closer the links at frame end. Then going to some rocky hilly rides I'll increase the seperation for low AS #.

 

[janderson4010]

i agree, you can know what your exact numbers are, but the trick is actually knowing what they mean in a real world environment. Usually you find a lot of conjecture on what they actually mean when you are straight up and down on a hill or blasting through the desert but no real answers.

 

[rookieshooter]

i agree, you can know what your exact numbers are, but the trick is actually knowing what they mean in a real world environment. Usually you find a lot of conjecture on what they actually mean when you are straight up and down on a hill or blasting through the desert but no real answers.

Well said indeed.
Let's get into the Way Back Machine and step back over 4 decades ago. You'll see that Anti Squat played a big role then and it's where I learned about it. But if they called it anti squat back then, I never heard of it. Mostly we just called it Weight Transfer.
I'll post up some graphic pics of what I'm talking about. I've posted these befor but not concerning this topic.
Plus it just brings back a fun time in my life and gives me a break about thinking of what i'm going to destroy next on Samson

Here's my friend John taking a break from helping me cut out the fire wall and making motor mounts to shove the engine further back and to also raise the COG by having it sit further up.
Note date on picture.

My first solid axle swap complete with elliptical springs lol.

Those doors were 100% fiber glass with plastic windows, custom aluminum dash. You can see how far the engine is back by how I had the firewall pushed back. Check out the Ford falcon and 59 Chevy ha ha.
Also back then the class you ran in was due to weight and cubic inches.
All the glass was taken out and replaced with Plexiglas. The doors were all custom made fiberglass, hood was skinned as the trunk lid. Battery was relocated to a better position. Then the weight needed to make a certain class would be added to the rear for better traction, Hmm sounds familiar.

Why all this work? Reason...Weight Transfer. Once pinion gear starts turning the ring gear and those large wrinkle wall slicks hook up to the asphalt twisting the axle housing counter clockwise then Newtons laws of physics come into play. All this motion has to go somewhere. And here is why we did what we did. Including why back in those days of the Gasser Wars we used cars that were mostly high in stature, hence the Willys, Anglias, and yes 55 Chevies.
At static weight the car had most of it's weight on the front tires, but mine had about 53% on the rear wheels sitting still due to a lot of body modifications, imagine that.
Now here is where Anti Squat came into play or weight transfer. I did a lot of work on designing my own traction bar system, and no we had no computers. We just kept testing and testing. I took 2x2 tubing and made up several sets in various lengths and had them connected at the axle and then to the frame at various points.
So now once the tires hook up and the traction wants to lift the frame up all that weight is starting to get high. So what happens is the COG which was high in the first place at static weight is now transferring the weight to the rear tires
Like to mention something hear, some people think when the car does a wheel stand that the body squats down on the rear, Wrong Wrong wrong. It actually raises up at the rear also but not noticed as much.

And here is an action pic of good weight transfer as the front of the car is raising up off the ground transferring the weight to the rear slicks which are have little wheel spin but rather propelling the car forward as I'm up against a fuel bike. And yes I got the win light ha ha. And what does that have to do with anything, shows that the proper amount of weight transfer can kick butt.

Here's a side view of a perfect weight transfer, just enough were little wheel spin as there is little smoke and the slicks are getting wrinkled up and the front is just lifted about 6 to 8" caring the car like this through most if in all of first gear. Generally I hit second gear just when the car came down which resulted in another weight transfer putting the front end back up again but for only a few feet.
Now remember this was back then and cars are designed now different transfer numbers or anti squat.

Earlier I mentioned why we used cars that were built high off of the ground so that when they went air borne we had the COG more over the rear axle when going vertical. But the advent of better rubber compounds and clutches and such changed that I'm sorry to say, there was just something about those Wheel Standing heads up racing in those days. Once bracket racing came out, that's when I got out for good. I tried it but with a low 10 second wheel standing Gasser it was just boring boring and like a said those numbers were over 40 years ago. In fact we campaigned the car as the fasted 55 Chevy running on pump gas in the US. The style of the 55 was as aerodynamic as a barn door. But back then it was all about weight transfer coming off the line. It had all steel motor and body mounts and when you slammed the gears in the 4 speed crash box it would snap your head back.

Christ that paper is turning yellow it's so old. But here is a write up on what I mean about all this talk on weight transfer. Now when it said wheel stand I mean wheel stand. High enough that sometime I swore it was going to go over, so high that I could not see the track I lost time when it did this but as the Drag times article said it would still do mid 10s and when hooked up right as in some of the pics it would do constant low 10s with one high 9 second blast at 75 & 80 drag strip in Md. But all the factors came into play as far as track temperatures and the weight of the air. This only happened one time.

And here is the engine that produced the torque. What i did was to change the rotational torque to more of a linear force through the rear radius arm lifting the chassis.

Again check out the body stance of this 6 cylinder Altered. I never ever beat this car. You can see that it had a high COG.

Running against a Henry J with the classic look of the Gassers back then with the high body.
Notice the two different body attitudes between my 55 and the J. Both cars are gettin hooked up. But notice the way the 55 is raised about equal amounts front to rear and the J has a more front end lift. This is because this perticular day I had the rear links hooked up different due to the track conditions. Just by moving the front part of the traction bar really changed the dynamics of the applied torque to chassis.
if you took a side view of any of these classic Gassers and did the typical sketch of a line drawn through the rear tire patch going forward to the line to intersect the vertical line coming from ground up through the center of the front tire spindle and intersect that with the horizontal COG line you would clearly see the amount of anti squat above or below that line

Hope you enjoyed the Nostalgic time trip backk mixing it up with a little Anti Squat which is nothing new.

But with that said I do want to be able to adjust the links. Having them non adjustable is like being married or a telephone pole, stuck in the same hole all your life ha ha.

One other thing, I'm not aginst the use of computers, lord knows I used them for years dong CAD work on mechanical drawings in the HVAC and metal industries. But befor that it was all done on a drafting table. I know what's a drafting table.