Water pump failure leads to dead engine

[bigdude2468]

This is a troubling thread and I do think Ford should have absolutely covered a catastrophic engine failure even if by mileage the vehicle was slightly out of warranty. It's one thing to draw a line in the sand if other components fail that are not major and do not cause major damage, but Ford should have stepped up to the plate to fix this vehicle under warranty, especially knowing the design of the water pump location is somewhat flawed. In addition to the location design flaw of this $85 part, according the maintenance schedule the orange coolant is scheduled to be changed at 100,000 miles and up to 150,000 miles there is no mention of the water pump to be replaced, therefore, the fact the water pump failed at 61,600 miles and ruined the engine is huge issue that Ford should have provided compensation to cover. I am now concerned with what I believe is a poor design and/or location of the water pump driven by the timing chain and also knowing that Ford will not accommodate a customer with minimum slack for a catastrophic failure due to this poor location design.

According to this thread, the dealer cost for replacing the water pump is going to be about $2,300 and if the engine fails it will cost about $7,300, not a great business model for the owner. Again, I go back to Toyota/Lexus, on the cars and trucks that have a timing belt the owner is required to replace the timing belt, water pump, pulley’s etc., every 90,000 miles for about $800 - $1,500 (independent vs dealer) and their engines run for at least 200,000 to 300,000 miles with minimum, if not any problems, genius IMO.

Lastly, one of the reasons I chose the 3.5 liter engine was because I had owned a Ford with a turbo in the past and working on that was not all that easy, in addition to the turbo failing like clockwork. I’m sure Ford has made improvements with their turbo’s, but I’m once bitten, twice shy and will not own another car or truck a turbo again. If I need more power I’ll get a larger engine. I will now more than likely sell my current Explorer just before the 100,000 mile mark.

I don't understand you logic. So If I own a Toyota / Lexus I have to pay $4500 + over the life of the vehicle to change the timing belt, water pump etc multiple times. One USED Ford Ex has a failure for $7500 and in your world its a bad design that should be changed requiring millions of customers to pay for multiple timing belts and water pumps., The bad design is not having a timing chain that eliminates the need to be changed. Water pumps almost always fail when the shaft seals start leaking. The failure is caused by the tension of the serpentine belt which applies torque to the pulley on the end of the water pump shaft. Ford's design puts the water pump internally where the shaft is driven without the torque being applied.

 

[Fla_15_XLT]

I don't understand you logic. So If I own a Toyota / Lexus I have to pay $4500 + over the life of the vehicle to change the timing belt, water pump etc multiple times. One USED Ford Ex has a failure for $7500 and in your world its a bad design that should be changed requiring millions of customers to pay for multiple timing belts and water pumps., The bad design is not having a timing chain that eliminates the need to be changed. Water pumps almost always fail when the shaft seals start leaking. The failure is caused by the tension of the serpentine belt which applies torque to the pulley on the end of the water pump shaft. Ford's design puts the water pump internally where the shaft is driven without the torque being applied.

Over the years, I've found a couple of different failure modes - the one you described is 'bearing-centered', where the bearing wears due to high belt load. There is also a coolant-centered mode of failure - where the coolant deteriorates to where it compromises the shaft/seal surface due to corrosion or lack of proper lubrication. This one is often preceded (by a few months) by a change in coolant (where a vehicle owner is sold a coolant service, most likely way before it's recommended by Ford) and the coolant used turns out to be 'not exactly' compatible. These days, coolant chemistry is a lot 'fussier' than it used to be 'back in the day', and getting the chemistry wrong will cause no end of grief.

And I've seen Honda engines trashed by a water pump failure - caused in many cases by coolant compatibility issues - and by a owner/tech trying to save a couple of bucks by keeping the old water pump. The mode is a water pump either leaks or seizes and takes out the timing belt - REALLY bad news on an interference engine. Toyota generally doesn't have that mode of failure (with a couple of V6 exceptions) as they are generally non-interference, so the water pump failure is doesn't result in failure cascade.

Again, the issue here is a failure cascade, where a relatively inexpensive part trashes the entire engine. I get that there are packaging considerations (which is what likely drove Ford to go with the current design - to make the V6 fit in smaller vehicle). But a design where a simple fault in one part will destroy the entire engine is not good - regardless of who sells it. Whether it's a timing belt failure causing the engine to eat its valvetrain or a water pump failure trashing the bearings, we know better.

 

[NCStatePack]

I found this thread while searching for water pump issues on the duratec 3.5L. I've got a Fusion sport with the 3.5L in it that I think just failed a water pump (coolant missing, whining while engine is on, fluid splashed around accessory drives). Dealer quoted me $2100 . I'll be taking it to a local shop to get a different estimate today.

I only have 106k miles on the car, so I just left my extended 100k mile warranty period. I was really hoping Ford would step in to help me with the repair given the service history of my vehicle, but they said no. I've had every service required at the dealer (besides the spark plugs which I did myself) in addition to about 6 or 7 warranty repairs. This car has been nothing but trouble since about 40k miles, so the water pump failure isn't that surprising, however the $2100 repair is quite surprising. I love Ford but I've been very disappointed in the durability and cost ownership of this vehicle.

For the folks here with the water pump failure, did you also see a small amount of oil dripping out from the accessory drives at the same time? I haven't explained that just yet, but I guess they can look for another leak once they get into the timing cover.

Thanks

 

[blwnsmoke]

I found this thread while searching for water pump issues on the duratec 3.5L. I've got a Fusion sport with the 3.5L in it that I think just failed a water pump (coolant missing, whining while engine is on, fluid splashed around accessory drives). Dealer quoted me $2100 . I'll be taking it to a local shop to get a different estimate today.

I only have 106k miles on the car, so I just left my extended 100k mile warranty period. I was really hoping Ford would step in to help me with the repair given the service history of my vehicle, but they said no. I've had every service required at the dealer (besides the spark plugs which I did myself) in addition to about 6 or 7 warranty repairs. This car has been nothing but trouble since about 40k miles, so the water pump failure isn't that surprising, however the $2100 repair is quite surprising. I love Ford but I've been very disappointed in the durability and cost ownership of this vehicle.

For the folks here with the water pump failure, did you also see a small amount of oil dripping out from the accessory drives at the same time? I haven't explained that just yet, but I guess they can look for another leak once they get into the timing cover.

Thanks

Sounds like your water pump is leaking the better of two ways. Since it has two seals, inner and outer (parts # 11 and 12), seems it is leaking externally which is far better then internally (new motor).

Water pump for your fusion is a $73 part... $2,000 is a ton of labor (18-20 hours??).

http://parts.autonationfordwhitebea...tem-cat/water-pump-scat/?part_name=water-pump

To be completely honest, I wouldn't expect Ford to help out at 106,000 miles. The ESP is not a warranty, it is a service plan so in actuality your warranty ran out at 36,000 miles. To expect Ford to cover something 70,000 miles later is a far reach. Yes you had an ESP but that is a separate contract and that is really black and white. Now if your water pump went out at 40,000 miles, then yes maybe Ford would cover it but not something that has 106,000 miles on it. There is a reason ESP pricing jumps considerably going from a 100k to 125k ESP and far more from a 125k to 150k ESP... because things are expected to fail at some point.

 

[Sixonemale]

And I've seen Honda engines trashed by a water pump failure - caused in many cases by coolant compatibility issues - and by a owner/tech trying to save a couple of bucks by keeping the old water pump. The mode is a water pump either leaks or seizes and takes out the timing belt - REALLY bad news on an interference engine. Toyota generally doesn't have that mode of failure (with a couple of V6 exceptions) as they are generally non-interference, so the water pump failure is doesn't result in failure cascade.

There is no doubt that it is rare to have timing belt break on its own, more times than not, if not 99% of the time, it's a pulley or water pump seizing that causes it to break, assuming that the timing belt has been replaced at either the proper mileage or yearly interval. This is also why when replacing a timing belt on a Toyota, especially with an interference engine, it’s smart to buy a kit and replace everything else at the same time such as the thermostat, water pump, pulley’s, etc., especially since the labor for the timing belt is the majority of the cost.

Again, the issue here is a failure cascade, where a relatively inexpensive part trashes the entire engine. I get that there are packaging considerations (which is what likely drove Ford to go with the current design - to make the V6 fit in smaller vehicle). But a design where a simple fault in one part will destroy the entire engine is not good - regardless of who sells it. Whether it's a timing belt failure causing the engine to eat its valvetrain or a water pump failure trashing the bearings, we know better.

Bingo! It's not a good design to have a small inexpensive part inside the engine block that will more than likely fail long before engine would have failed on it's own, potentially causing catastrophic damage.

Perhaps replacing the water pump should be done a particular maintenance interval to alleviate this concern, similar to a timing belt kit.

 

[sheltonfilms]

I found this thread while searching for water pump issues on the duratec 3.5L. I've got a Fusion sport with the 3.5L in it that I think just failed a water pump (coolant missing, whining while engine is on, fluid splashed around accessory drives). Dealer quoted me $2100 . I'll be taking it to a local shop to get a different estimate today.

I only have 106k miles on the car, so I just left my extended 100k mile warranty period. I was really hoping Ford would step in to help me with the repair given the service history of my vehicle, but they said no. I've had every service required at the dealer (besides the spark plugs which I did myself) in addition to about 6 or 7 warranty repairs. This car has been nothing but trouble since about 40k miles, so the water pump failure isn't that surprising, however the $2100 repair is quite surprising. I love Ford but I've been very disappointed in the durability and cost ownership of this vehicle.

For the folks here with the water pump failure, did you also see a small amount of oil dripping out from the accessory drives at the same time? I haven't explained that just yet, but I guess they can look for another leak once they get into the timing cover.

Thanks

It's a 10.8 hour job with the cost of the water pump being about $100 bucks. I would say they are gonna replace the timing components as well. So estimate $250-$300 for those. Which leaves 1700 for labor. Divide that by 10.8 and you have $157 dollars an hour for labor (that seems high).

10.8 Hours is a lot and they have to do a lot to change the pump.

Remove serpentine belt and tensioner.
Remove wheel well liner.
Remove motor mount.
Evacuate A/C system and remove line.
Disconnect some cooling lines.
Disconnect fuel line.
Remove intake manifold and everything associated with it.
Remove front and rear valve covers.
Lock the cams in place at TDC.
Remove front engine cover with 26 bolts (yeeeesh).
Remove some cam sprockets and oil pressure solenoids.
Remove tensioner and guides.
Remove chain.
Remove water pump. Replace.

Most likely have to drain oil afterwards to make sure no coolant is in the pan.

The worst is the sealant they have to use requires a ton of bolts to be installed on the front engine cover within 4 minutes and the rest within 35. If these times aren't met then they have to clean all the RTV sealant off and start again.

I wouldn't dare have an independent shop do this. It would either be myself or the dealer.

There are so many things for an independent shop to do to cut corners. Use a sub-par sealant. Not replace cam sprocket bolts which are torque to yield (means they are stretched and shouldn't be reused due to being weakened.)

 

[NCStatePack]

Thanks all for the replies. To be clear I definitely wasn't expecting ford to help pay for the repair but for a $2000 water pump failure I wasn't going to NOT ask. I can't believe how poor this car has performed for me for the last 6 years. I really want to like it and Ford, but damn if I won't buy another one after all the part failures I've had. To pay a 3rd of the car's value for a water pump is outrageous unless your car is worth 1500

 

[Sixonemale]

Thanks all for the replies. To be clear I definitely wasn't expecting ford to help pay for the repair but for a $2000 water pump failure I wasn't going to NOT ask. I can't believe how poor this car has performed for me for the last 6 years. I really want to like it and Ford, but damn if I won't buy another one after all the part failures I've had. To pay a 3rd of the car's value for a water pump is outrageous unless your car is worth 1500

Per Ford's maintenance schedule for the 2015 Explorer, which goes up to 150,000 miles, there is no mention of the water pump, other than "inspect cooling system and hoses". Without question, Ford will reap the benefits in repair costs over the next several years due to a poor design.

 

[4FordFamily]

I highly doubt things will be remotely as doom and gloom as some say on here. Sometimes we can be so dramatic

 

[4FordFamily]

Thanks all for the replies. To be clear I definitely wasn't expecting ford to help pay for the repair but for a $2000 water pump failure I wasn't going to NOT ask. I can't believe how poor this car has performed for me for the last 6 years. I really want to like it and Ford, but damn if I won't buy another one after all the part failures I've had. To pay a 3rd of the car's value for a water pump is outrageous unless your car is worth 1500

I've had 23 fords over the years, 3 or 4 at a time. Includes a ranger over 468k, f150s 270-370k, explorers up to 230, and several others. All have been great with the exception of an f250 with 90k but turns out all 90k were plowing miles for a city in Ohio. That wasn't the trucks fault that's bad maintenance and 90k HARD miles..

I'm sorry you're having issues but honestly ford is the last of the great domestic companies, IMO and they do a great job.

 

[CajunFordEx]

I've had 23 fords over the years, 3 or 4 at a time. Includes a ranger over 468k, f150s 270-370k, explorers up to 230, and several others. All have been great with the exception of an f250 with 90k but turns out all 90k were plowing miles for a city in Ohio. That wasn't the trucks fault that's bad maintenance and 90k HARD miles..

I'm sorry you're having issues but honestly ford is the last of the great domestic companies, IMO and they do a great job.

 

[blwnsmoke]

Amazing when the common issues like the water leak, exhaust smell, power steering failures are all posted on here and now there are 2 water pumps failures posted on here with over 1 million 5th Gen explorers and suddenly this engine is a terrible design because of 2 posted failures.

I agree, so dramatic.

 

[Forddealz]

I've had 23 fords over the years, 3 or 4 at a time. Includes a ranger over 468k, f150s 270-370k, explorers up to 230, and several others. All have been great with the exception of an f250 with 90k but turns out all 90k were plowing miles for a city in Ohio. That wasn't the trucks fault that's bad maintenance and 90k HARD miles..

I'm sorry you're having issues but honestly ford is the last of the great domestic companies, IMO and they do a great job.

Domestic companies? Everything seems to be now made everywhere including Ford building vehicles in Mexico. What can you expect trusting the badge in front of the car. Many Lexus RX owners are concerned that their vehicles are now built in Canada instead of Japan.

 

[Forddealz]

Amazing when the common issues like the water leak, exhaust smell, power steering failures are all posted on here and now there are 2 water pumps failures posted on here with over 1 million 5th Gen explorers and suddenly this engine is a terrible design because of 2 posted failures.

I agree, so dramatic.

There will be a few bad Apples in 1 million sold. BMW's 8 cylinder, N63 engines got a customer care package because most of the people got affected by buying their turbo V8 engines.

 

[4FordFamily]

Domestic companies? Everything seems to be now made everywhere including Ford building vehicles in Mexico. What can you expect trusting the badge in front of the car. Many Lexus RX owners are concerned that their vehicles are now built in Canada instead of Japan.

Japanese car sales do not benefit the US GDP. Big three auto sales do.

Granted, foreign cars assembled here creates jobs and does somewhat impact US GDP but much of the profits funnel back to the country of incorporation. This whole domestic vs foreign argument people use to say domestic are Mexican and Canadian and Japanese are American are a complete fallacy.

 

[4FordFamily]

Amazing when the common issues like the water leak, exhaust smell, power steering failures are all posted on here and now there are 2 water pumps failures posted on here with over 1 million 5th Gen explorers and suddenly this engine is a terrible design because of 2 posted failures.

I agree, so dramatic.

It's remarkable. It also reminds me of when people say things like "my mechanic friend says he sees more Ford Taurus and explorers than Chevy dodge or Japanese trucks"

Well, let's look at the ratio of these fords on the road. Explorer outsold the competition 2-5 fold, the Taurus the same, and 10-30 years ago (when many cars being worked on were sold) Ford sold a large portion of vehicles on the road as well. So yes, by sheer volume, you would see more Fords. There are MORE OF them.

 

[Sixonemale]

I highly doubt things will be remotely as doom and gloom as some say on here. Sometimes we can be so dramatic

I'm simply calling the design of the water pump as I see it. I also have owned a lot of Fords also since '77, one of which was '79 Mustang 2.3L Turbo. I'm sure their Turbo's have improved, but on that Mustang it was like clockwork, the turbo failed about every 50,000 miles and that was with meticulous maintenance. From that experience I will never own a Turbo again, if I want power I'll buy a bigger block engine.

 

[bigdude2468]

So what would you call the Toyota engine sludge issue that effected 1000's of vehicles, the Subaru head gasket failure that was an issue for over a decade, Chrysler transmission problems, GM head gasket failures due to the plastic plenums they used, etc, etc. So two known water pump failures and that's a terrible design, whatever

 

[peterk9]

So what would you call the Toyota engine sludge issue that effected 1000's of vehicles, the Subaru head gasket failure that was an issue for over a decade, Chrysler transmission problems, GM head gasket failures due to the plastic plenums they used, etc, etc. So two known water pump failures and that's a terrible design, whatever

In the Lincoln Forum there is a post about a member that has a water pump leak in his 2010 Ecoboost MKT. Engine has to be pulled to fix it.
This water pump issue would not affect my decision to get an Explorer.

Peter

 

[Sixonemale]

In the Lincoln Forum there is a post about a member that has a water pump leak in his 2010 Ecoboost MKT. Engine has to be pulled to fix it.
This water pump issue would not affect my decision to get an Explorer.

Peter

To me that's a red flag and it would certainly deter me from buying MKT. That member is also probably fortunate that the leak did not do more damage to the engine/turbo.

Peter, if I recall correctly your leasing your car, so if that's the case you are highly unlikely to encounter any of the problems discussed on this board. Also, with today's engineering and technology a consumer should expect almost any new vehicle to drive to the 100,000 mile mark with no major maintenance issues so long as routine maintenance is performed.