Water pump failure leads to dead engine

[FordServiceCA]

Hi. I am new to the Forum, but have been doing extensive searches I this subject...

Have just experienced catastrophic failure at 88000 miles due to water pump leaked and contaminated the engine oil with coolant.... $2300 quoted to replace water pump only, but told really need to replace engine too as bearings may be damaged ... total $7000...

I think Ford is praying that these incidents remain isolated and unpublished. You won't see a recall. I wonder how many of these have happened under warranty, so we don't hear about them?...Love the EDGE... I am heartbroken.

Allow me to lend a hand, K_Redmond. Please PM your VIN and current odometer reading; I'll investigate your VIN and see if any recall is attached.

Kwasi

 

[Sixonemale]

Allow me to lend a hand, K_Redmond. Please PM your VIN and current odometer reading; I'll investigate your VIN and see if any recall is attached.

Kwasi

I sure hope K_Redmond gets back to you because this is a huge repair and it looks like it occurred back in January. Please let us know if there are any recalls associated with the water pumps used and/or design of where they reside inside the engine block or if there is new sensor retrofit so that owners can easily detect a leaking or faulty water pump.

 

[Miamibern]

Dealing with this now

I have a 2008 Ford Edge and the water pump is toast. I found a guy to do it for $1,000, to which I was relieved. I contacted the law firm that was going to pursue class action on this and they informed me that "no further action will take place in this matter"!!

From all my internet research, this is something I am stuck with. A big s@&t sandwich and I'm gonna take a bite.

 

[Sixonemale]

I have a 2008 Ford Edge and the water pump is toast. I found a guy to do it for $1,000, to which I was relieved. I contacted the law firm that was going to pursue class action on this and they informed me that "no further action will take place in this matter"!!

From all my internet research, this is something I am stuck with. A big s@&t sandwich and I'm gonna take a bite.

Make sure to ask the mechanic if he has done this job before and ask how successful he was doing it, or have any of the cars come back that he has done this exact same job on.

On EBay this water pump ranges from approximately $30 to $80. Posts within this forum display a replacement cost from about $1,000 to $2,300. So, let's say the average price of water pump is $55, if your able to replace it for a $1,000 labor cost, that is about 18 times the cost of the part, and if you spend $2,300 to have it replaced that's about 42 times the cost of the part. You won't find many repairs with labor cost that are 18 to 42 times the cost of the part that's being replaced.

In contrast to this, to replace my water pump on my '02 Explorer, the part if I recall correctly was about $80-$100 and about $300 for labor costs, about 3 times the cost of the part. I replaced it proactively at about 130,000 miles and had no hesitation to take the truck on long trips which I did until about 192,000 miles.

Most importantly it's not that easy for someone to detect that the water pump is malfunctioning which could lead to catastrophic damage to the engine costing up to $7,000 for it's replacement. I think most owners if this forum will have a good idea when their water pump begins to leak, but I'm not so sure about the next or second owners of their vehicles.

Lastly, how will this effect long road trips over 100,000 miles or so, will it be easily detectable on a road trip or will end up in catastrophic engine damage because it will be difficult to detect.

 

[FordServiceCA]

I sure hope K_Redmond gets back to you because this is a huge repair and it looks like it occurred back in January. Please let us know if there are any recalls associated with the water pumps used and/or design of where they reside inside the engine block or if there is new sensor retrofit so that owners can easily detect a leaking or faulty water pump.

I'll be glad to, I just need the VINs in order to look up recalls/TSBs since some are vehicle/plant specific.

Thanks,

Mathieu

 

[sheltonfilms]

I keep thinking of ways to increasing you chances of detection.

I'm thinking you could run a line from the weep hole to a catch can and monitor the can. Hell you could add a moisture sensor to the catch reservoir and have it make a light come on to let you know.

 

[Sixonemale]

I keep thinking of ways to increasing you chances of detection.

I'm thinking you could run a line from the weep hole to a catch can and monitor the can. Hell you could add a moisture sensor to the catch reservoir and have it make a light come on to let you know.

No doubt about it, this will be bigger issue as the years go by and this generation of Explorer ages. The engine has been around for quite sometime and at some point and time this issue may reach critical mass causing Ford to come forth with either sensor or recall. Currently it's flying under the radar and I don't doubt Ford is making quite a bit per year via service revenue replacing these water pumps and/or engines that were destroyed because of them.

 

[thefranchise713]

I highly doubt you'll ever see a recall, but you might see a "customer satisfaction program."

Best advice is to flood the Customer Relationship Center with calls, letters, emails, etc. Ford's done a good number of these programs over the years, and although pricy, enough contact may force them into action.

If there are Focus vehicles with the DPS6 from 2012 running around with 100k/10 year (or something similar) with extended warranties on the clutch, 3.5L NA owners may see some love too.

 

[Sixonemale]

I highly doubt you'll ever see a recall, but you might see a "customer satisfaction program."

Best advice is to flood the Customer Relationship Center with calls, letters, emails, etc. Ford's done a good number of these programs over the years, and although pricy, enough contact may force them into action.

If there are Focus vehicles with the DPS6 from 2012 running around with 100k/10 year (or something similar) with extended warranties on the clutch, 3.5L NA owners may see some love too.

I agree that you will never see a recall because of poorly designed engine, but there could be recall to put on some sort of sensor that eliminates catastrophic engine damage from an internal water pump that has gone bad. Or, as you have stated perhaps they could apply an extended warranty to the water pump itself. Right now they probably have a large stream of revenue for replacing these water pumps and/or effected engines.

 

[Junkmann2]

It all depends on how they view the problem, and how they respond to it. In the early 1990's, Mercedes made wire harness's that the copper wire was insulated with a biodegradable material. Within 2 years of manufacture, the wire harness's started failing, and Mercedes made a replacement wire harness that was made of a more permanent insulation. If the car was in warranty, they replaced the engine wiring harness free of charge. If the car was one day past the warranty, the customer had to pay for the replacement. People complained of engine fires as a result of this "defective" wire harness to the government agency in charge of recalls, and Mercedes replied that it was a service item, just like spark plugs, and that no recall was warranted. As unbelievable it is, the government didn't force a recall. The more people complained about this problem, the more expensive the wire harness became to purchase. They knew that there was a problem, and as the cars aged, they kept making the replacement part more expensive, so the cars wouldn't be repaired, but scrapped. No one was going to spend $1500 on a part, plus labor to fix a car that was worth 3 or 4 thousand dollars.
Today, the salvage yards are full of PT Cruisers that have had engine failures, but the bodies and interiors are perfect. PT Cruisers have a high rate of engine failures, and replacement engines cost upward of $2500 for a rebuilt. The cars just aren't worth fixing.
I can see this happening with the Fords that are equipped with this engine. Once the engine fails, they will become parts cars in the salvage yards. Personally, I am at the point in my life, where I will not own a car once it is out of the factory warranty.

 

[thefranchise713]

I really doubt you'll see a recall unless you can make a colorable argument that the vehicle is in violation of an NHTSA FMVSS standard.

But honestly, I hope we do at least see a CSP. These are really great engines with a single, however fatal, flaw. Personally I wish they'd just give everyone one free water pump w/labor at 80-100k as a maintenance good will gesture, regardless of failure.

But I'm not Ford.

 

[sheltonfilms]

I really doubt you'll see a recall unless you can make a colorable argument that the vehicle is in violation of an NHTSA FMVSS standard.

But honestly, I hope we do at least see a CSP. These are really great engines with a single, however fatal, flaw. Personally I wish they'd just give everyone one free water pump w/labor at 80-100k as a maintenance good will gesture, regardless of failure.

But I'm not Ford.

Probably just an extended warranty on the pump. Like the extended warranty on the Sync system APIM.

The old SN95 mustangs with the 4.6 mod motor got a 7 year extended warranty on the intake manifold because the coolant crossover would crack.

The old Vulcan motors had an issue that if the cam synchronizer failed the oil pump stopped working and you had a locked up engine. When it went bad you would hear a chirping sound and if you didn't get it fixed in time you had a seized engine. Little bit different than this issue in that it was a pretty simple process to change a cam syncho.

I don't think this issue has hit Ford's "threshold" for action. There are a few vehicles that have this issue but there are probably 3 million + vehicles with this engine that are getting 150k+ miles before having a water pump issue. 150k miles can easily be said to be "the life of the engine".

 

[thefranchise713]

I'd love to get access to Ford's statistics to see how many pumps they've changed. I keep reading these cases all over different forums.

Your 150k logic is (sadly) probably correct, though.

 

[Sixonemale]

All excellent comments by Junkmann, Thefranchise and Sheltonfilms.

"150k miles can easily be said to be "the life of the engine"

I tend to disagree just a tad bit with this comment, knowing that Toyota and Honda engines can easily get 250,000+ miles on them with scheduled maintenance changes of the timing belt and water pump.

With that said, if an average driver puts on 15,000 miles per year, this results in the life of the vehicle being ten years. So, if someone paid $40,000 cash for a vehicle this is the equivalent of an annual payment of $4,000/year or a monthly payment of $333/month over a ten year period, in addition to general maintenance and auto insurance costs.

The worst part of this engine design is the randomness of when the water pump problem surfaces and sometimes without warning. Knowing that some parts of an engine don't have very long lives, most of us conduct preventive maintenance on $40 parts to ensure no breakdowns occur on the road, but with a labor cost of about $2,200 to have a water pump replaced, I'm not sure how many owners will replace their water pump as a preventive maintenance task.

I think Ford is making a good stream of service revenue from these water pumps and/or failed engines, and will also do the same overtime with turbos. I also would really like to see statistics associated with these engines.

I sure hope the Ford service rep's are running this issue up the flagpole.

 

[sheltonfilms]

Just about any engine can make it to 250+ miles. My ranger has 230k miles and never had the engine apart except for a valve cover gasket.

150k is not necessarily the average mark of when an engine dies, but more of the "give a ****" threshold for auto manufactures. If it makes it to 150k, their job is done.

Today's engines are really made to go 300+. The issue is most people get a significant issue at the 175-225k mile mark and don't feel like paying for a repair. Also, the desire to have a new car has heavy weight in this influence.

The ranger I mentioned was my first vehicle when I was 15 and has done me well for the past 16 years. Still my daily driver. My goal is 450k+ miles.

To me there is no repair that will cause me to scrap it. Engine goes bad, I'll rebuild it. Transmission goes bad I'll rebuild it. Frame breaks, I'll swap everything over to another one.

 

[Sixonemale]

I'd love to get access to Ford's statistics to see how many pumps they've changed. I keep reading these cases all over different forums.

Your 150k logic is (sadly) probably correct, though.

According the maintenance schedule there is no requirement or task in regard to changing coolant for normal driving conditions, it says at certain mileage intervals to inspect coolant system and hoses only. Obviously if during an inspection it looks the coolant needs changing, then by all means it should be changed. I will change my coolant at certain intervals regardless of this manual.

At the end of the day Ford knows very well the approximate failure rate of these water pumps and at about the window of mileage which they occur. A certain rate would be deemed acceptable as well as certain failure rate would be considered or ruled unacceptable. I'm guessing, but failure rate of 5-10% may be considered acceptable up to the 150,000 mile mark, but if the failure rate of these water pumps is let's say is greater than 30%, that could present a major problem. I'm also not taking into account engines that encountered catastrophic damage due to this water pump failure. I don't know the failure rate or the typical mileage at which these water pumps fail, nor do I know what percent have failed before 150,000 miles, but as mentioned previously during good automotive sales times mistakes are glossed over, but when sales tighten up and if the economy encounters a correction, this issue may rise to the public surface, especially if the failure rate falls into what would be considered to be an unacceptable category.

 

[sheltonfilms]

According the maintenance schedule there is no requirement or task in regard to changing coolant for normal driving conditions, it says at certain mileage intervals to inspect coolant system and hoses only. Obviously if during an inspection it looks the coolant needs changing, then by all means it should be changed. I will change my coolant at certain intervals regardless of this manual.

At the end of the day Ford knows very well the approximate failure rate of these water pumps and at about the window of mileage which they occur. A certain rate would be deemed acceptable as well as certain failure rate would be considered or ruled unacceptable. I'm guessing, but failure rate of 5-10% may be considered acceptable up to the 150,000 mile mark, but if the failure rate of these water pumps is let's say is greater than 30%, that could present a major problem. I'm also not taking into account engines that encountered catastrophic damage due to this water pump failure. I don't know the failure rate or the typical mileage at which these water pumps fail, nor do I know what percent have failed before 150,000 miles, but as mentioned previously during good automotive sales times mistakes are glossed over, but when sales tighten up and if the economy encounters a correction, this issue may rise to the public surface, especially if the failure rate falls into what would be considered to be an unacceptable category.

I'm wondering if the pump has had some revisions. IF you look on tascaparts it says for explorers from 1/2/2012. Did they change the part? Maybe added a better seal that lasts longer.

Wish I knew someone at Ford at engineering change control.

 

[bigdude2468]

It would be interesting to find out how many water pumps have failed before 100,000 miles, before 150,000 etc. We know of three or four (?) on this forum but that certainly is not all of them. The police interceptor from Canada with 5500 idle hours does not count. At an average speed of 30 mph that would add another 165,000 miles to the odometer. The availability of the water pump from auto parts stores tells me that pump must be used in multiple vehicles as no do it yourself mechanics are doing this job. My dealer provides a 100,000 mile power train warranty ($500 deductible) so that provides another level of margin if anything happens with my vehicle. I also purchased an extended warranty from the dealer. This is the first extended warranty I have ever purchased but because they have the 100,000 mile warranty with all new vehicles the cost of the extended warranty was quite reasonable. The extended warranty is 150,000 miles which I doubt I would ever hit.

 

[thefranchise713]

I'm wondering if the pump has had some revisions. IF you look on tascaparts it says for explorers from 1/2/2012. Did they change the part? Maybe added a better seal that lasts longer.

Wish I knew someone at Ford at engineering change control.

Me too. I caught them changing the headlamp on my Taurus for Job 2 2015 builds and I inquired about the change.

I was told it was company confidential. Really? :thumbdwn:

Would sadly expect any other revisions to be treated similarly...

 

[Sixonemale]

I'll be glad to, I just need the VINs in order to look up recalls/TSBs since some are vehicle/plant specific.

Thanks,

Mathieu

Mathieu,

If you and Ford have not heard back from K_Redmond, perhaps you and Ford should PM him since his repair cost ranges from $2,300 to $7,000 for a car with only 88,000 miles on it. Also, I think many on this forum would see it as beneficial if you could share all recalls and technical service bulletins associated with a water pump and/or over heating issues associated with the water pump.

Since this problem has the potential to affect all model year 2007-2016 Ford vehicles containing a Duratec 35 (3.5 liter) engine, that include at a minimum: 2007-2016 Ford Edge, 2007-2010 Lincoln MKX, 2007-2016 Lincoln MKZ, 2008-2016 Ford Taurus, 2008-2009 Ford Taurus X, 2008-2009 Mercury Sable, 2009-2004 Ford Flex, 2012-2012 Ford Fusion Sport, and 2011-2016 Ford Explorer. I think many in this forum are also very interested in the water pump failure statistics that Ford is seeing associated with the water pumps inside the Duratec 35 (3.5 liter) engines. It would be really beneficial if you could provide the following data to this audience associated with the Duratec 35 engines:

- Percentage of water pumps that have failed before 50,000 miles
- Percentage of engines that have had to be replaced before 50,000 miles due to a water pump failure

- Percentage of water pumps that have failed before 100,000 miles
- Percentage of engines that have had to be replaced before 100,000 miles due to a water pump failure

- Percentage of water pumps that have failed before 150,000 miles
- Percentage of engines that have had to be replaced before 150,000 miles due to a water pump failure

There should be plenty of data out there, thanks in advance.