Water in cylinders

[rasouth]

This is kind of a follow up to my recent post "Dreaded cylinder misfire". It all started some months ago when I had the code PO302 pop up. I did the usual checking of wires, plugs, broken vacuum lines, etc... A few weeks later PO306 pops up... Checked wires, coil connection, pulled spark plugs on cylinder 5 and 6 to compare. Again, a few weeks later PO300... Multiple random misfires... Skip forward a week and I noticed water dripping out of tail pipe. Checked level in radiator, full to the top. No codes popped up ( I cleared the other codes). I then then replaced all plugs (wires were fairly new). That's when I posted "Dreaded misfire". I still drove the truck now and again and that's when I noticed overflow tank was empty and radiator coolant was down a couple of inches. All of which would point to a blown head gasket or a cracked head. (No water in oil, though)
My question now is... What are the chances that I would get a cracked head or broken gasket on both heads at the same time? Seeing as the error codes indicated number 2 and number 6, which are not on the same head. The car starts fine, idles good and drives fine with a little stutter now and again.
I did another rookie mistake. I did not do a compression check before I started tearing apart the top of the motor.

 

[ranger7ltr]

Not very likely UNLESS the engine was overheated...And losing coolant is not limited to the engine cylinders. You could lose coolant from the corners of the intake especially the rear if the intake gasket is blown...And water dripping from the tailpipe is normal especially when the truck is first started and not up to temperature... Even if it is your daily driver you will see condensation dripping from the exhaust after startup for some time and that is not cause for alarm...I don't know how far you have gone to teardown the top end of your engine but I would look at the fuel and ignition issues as well as the charging system and grounding of the coil pack before assuming the cylinders are the problem...If the rockers are the only parts removed you can still run a compression test with a little reassembly work......

Unfortunately I did not read your first post but ignition and fuel delivery are what I have seen that cause the majority of random misfires and then weak charging systems not delivering proper voltage to the vehicle...

 

[96eb96]

This is kind of a follow up to my recent post "Dreaded cylinder misfire". It all started some months ago when I had the code PO302 pop up. I did the usual checking of wires, plugs, broken vacuum lines, etc... A few weeks later PO306 pops up... Checked wires, coil connection, pulled spark plugs on cylinder 5 and 6 to compare. Again, a few weeks later PO300... Multiple random misfires... Skip forward a week and I noticed water dripping out of tail pipe. Checked level in radiator, full to the top. No codes popped up ( I cleared the other codes). I then then replaced all plugs (wires were fairly new). That's when I posted "Dreaded misfire". I still drove the truck now and again and that's when I noticed overflow tank was empty and radiator coolant was down a couple of inches. All of which would point to a blown head gasket or a cracked head. (No water in oil, though)
My question now is... What are the chances that I would get a cracked head or broken gasket on both heads at the same time? Seeing as the error codes indicated number 2 and number 6, which are not on the same head. The car starts fine, idles good and drives fine with a little stutter now and again.
I did another rookie mistake. I did not do a compression check before I started tearing apart the top of the motor.

If you tore the motor apart, you have to buy two new heads for this engine. Problem solved. It is possible both heads can crack. They are vulnerable, and after all this time they surely did their job. I do not suggest reinstalling the old heads.

 

[roscoe 0202]

I would not buy new heads until you have them checked by a machine shop and find they are indeed cracked
roscoe

 

[rasouth]

The engine has never overheated. I had to replace radiator 9-10 years ago because it had a hole in it. The engine did heat up but not to the point of extreme temp. I don't think the water from the tail pipe is normal condensation. A few tablespoons of water on start up maybe, but I'm getting a half a cupful even after the car has warmed up and radiator level is dropping...
As of the tear down I have only gotten as far as removing intake manifold. The gasket looked torn around water jackets but there is no water in the oil and no way I can see that coolant can get into intake from that point, so all signs point to heads or gaskets... After replacing plugs, wires are a couple years old, coil was replaced with wires, charging system is fine, no vacuum leaks that I could detect, new fuel filter, engine starts and idles fairly smooth, stutters occasionally when driving and that was my first concern until I noticed I was loosing coolant. Error codes PO302 first, followed by PO306 a few weeks later and then PO300 after that. My question is could I have a blown head gasket or cracked head on BOTH sides happen at once?
I'm tempted to reassemble intake and do a compression check to make sure. I am hoping to get this fixed soon because I have to smog it by June 14.

 

[96eb96]

The cracks can be very gradual, one more one less. I believe you can still do a compression test with the intake off.
Sounds like the same symptoms I had, but I used K-seal because the rust is getting to it and not worth new heads. So far so good. It is a second car but put thousands of miles since. No misfires ever, there were thousands when it had the problem. I was able to blow air in a cylinder and see the coolant rise. Your plugs are probably cracked too because of the liquid. Won't hurt to change them or at least inspect.

 

[rasouth]

I might try that K-seal. The car has 201000 miles and has been running good until the misfires. Not sure if it's worth it to replace heads on such an old car... heads, new bolts, new gaskets, time and labor, etc... I did the crankshaft a few years ago... ground and polished, new bearings, gaskets, oil seals... Ran good after that but now misfires and possible leaking heads. I've had no oil leaks except a few drops from rear main oil seal after doing crank but that has stopped.
I am at the point that I could take rockers off and remove heads or put back together and try K-seal, which would be the cheaper route to go.
Hey 96eb96... I believe it was on your advice that I bought an OBD2 adapter. I haven't had a chance to do much with it except sync it up with my tablet and Torque Pro. What should I be looking for when reading the results? O2 sensors? RPM? Misfires?... Any help on determining what the readings mean would be helpful.

 

[rasouth]

A quick update. I put the engine back together and did a compression check, and guess what? Only one cylinder is down on pressure, not two like the error codes said. 158,115,150,140,157,165. A little varied. I might take another reading... It's kinda hard getting the pressure gauge into those tight spot and I want to be sure.

 

[96eb96]

I might try that K-seal. The car has 201000 miles and has been running good until the misfires. Not sure if it's worth it to replace heads on such an old car... heads, new bolts, new gaskets, time and labor, etc... I did the crankshaft a few years ago... ground and polished, new bearings, gaskets, oil seals... Ran good after that but now misfires and possible leaking heads. I've had no oil leaks except a few drops from rear main oil seal after doing crank but that has stopped.
I am at the point that I could take rockers off and remove heads or put back together and try K-seal, which would be the cheaper route to go.
Hey 96eb96... I believe it was on your advice that I bought an OBD2 adapter. I haven't had a chance to do much with it except sync it up with my tablet and Torque Pro. What should I be looking for when reading the results? O2 sensors? RPM? Misfires?... Any help on determining what the readings mean would be helpful.

You want to see the 6 misfire counters. Forscan is what I use. They are quite accurate even though it is a 96. I get less than 5 with those new plugs on a 100 mile trip now. Probably better than some new cars off the lot. I put the K-seal into the coolant sensor hole, I heard it is not a good idea to contact the radiator fins when concentrated. I remember watching the app, it was counting up misfires and suddenly it STOPPED in its tracks after I installed it and it warmed up.

I also ran it with a spark plug out for 20 minutes. I don't know if that was necessary, I had a crack in the plug that I didn't see, it still used to misfire at random times. But it was different from the severe misfire with the cracked head. The K-seal has to force itself into the crack somehow. The gentleman there told me sometimes it can work when the piston is momentarily not under compression. Once that stuff gets in it is a permanent repair. It is liquid glass that melts from the heat, and acts like epoxy. Remember that cracked heads can be repaired in different ways on the bench, so it isn't that far fetched.

I also had some pinhole freeze plug leaks, took care of that. I also had hot heat on the coldest days. My coolant was very clean though, I do it every two years. If you have dirty coolant (which you probably don't) I guess it could cause issues. You also have to look hard to see the product in the coolant. They say it could be removed after the repair, but I think it is good peace of mind on such an old truck.

 

[96eb96]

A quick update. I put the engine back together and did a compression check, and guess what? Only one cylinder is down on pressure, not two like the error codes said. 158,115,150,140,157,165. A little varied. I might take another reading... It's kinda hard getting the pressure gauge into those tight spot and I want to be sure.

The 140 could have microscopic cracks. I think these engines crack because they don't have a real thermostat bypass and they have steam formation. There was a TSB about it where they sold a special T hose. It was supposed to cure gauge fluctuation and noise. Who knows...

Much rather deal with this than the SOHC problems. I was told all of this when I bought the truck in 01 off a Ford tech. He said he used to deal with a bad SOHC engine daily. He mentioned the heads could crack on ours but it is a 5 hour bolt on job you can do in your driveway. Other than that the OHV lasts forever.

 

[rasouth]

Thanks for info, guys... I'm gonna look to see where I can buy some K-Seal. My local Autozone does not have any on the shelf or listed on their website. All the got is Bar's Leak Alumiseal.

 

[roscoe 0202]

k w block seal is the same stuff
roscoe

 

[rasouth]

Another update... I did another compression check. The first readings were 158,115,150,140,157,165... Second readings were 158,112,152,145,155,170. All plugs are removed, fuel system disconnected. Not sure what step to take now... Probably try K-Seal.

 

[rasouth]

I found some K-seal and added it to the top hose going into engine block, topped off coolant and started engine. Like always it started up fine and idled okay...a few stutters now and again. I let it idle while I looked over the engine for leaks, topped off rad and let it go for about 30-40 minutes with no change. Took it for a test drive around block and noticed it bucking and found that a plug wire slipped off. Checked all wires again and drove it around. Still had stuttering at steady speed of around 40 mph. Pulled back into garage, let idle for another half hour and still stutters. Today looked into rad and coolant is down an inch or so. Stared it up and let idle for close to an hour. Water started dripping out tail pipe for 5-6 minutes then stopped but if I held my hand close to it I felt moisture, a lot of moisture.
Too big of a gap for K-seal to fix? I found some reconditioned heads with new valves and springs for $225, plus $36 for gaskets and $25 for new bolts.

 

[Mbrooks420]

Probably time for heads. Something bad is going on in the 112 psi cylinder. If it doesn’t build better pressure and quickly drop off you very well might have other issues going on, like a valve not seating or damaged rings. You can typically tell if it’s rings by putting a small amount of oil in the hole (like a teaspoon) and retesting. If it tests significantly higher, you have a ring sealing issue.

 

[rasouth]

I was planning on testing the cylinders again. I was thinking it must be a big crack or something wrong in the block or cylinder if K-seal wouldn't fix it. Still no coolant in oil or signs of external leaks so I'm hoping blown gasket or cracked head.
I've used the oil in cylinders when checking compression before. That is what I was planning to do if compression didn't increase, just to cover all the bases.

 

[rasouth]

BTW... Where do I look to see what heads I have? Or are they all the same for that year? The website lists CH1031R and CH1033N. Another one is EHF2441...

 

[96eb96]

Did you run with a plug out in the bad cyl?

 

[96eb96]

This is what I had in my cart to buy, I can't imagine buying reman heads that have the bad design and may crack 10K miles later. I spoke with the guy there he said they never had a problem with them. Looks like he sells a lot, not a fly by night.

NEW 4.0 FORD RANGER BRONCO EXPLORER AEROSTAR MAZDA B4000 LATE CYLINDER HEADS | eBay

This place also has an excellent reputation: (more expensive). The guy above said there is no difference in quality, I don't know.
King Cylinder Heads - High Quality at Great Prices - United States

I would give it some more time with the K-seal, and run with the plug out (it will sound very noisy) in the cyl with the lowest compression.

Also check the plug it is not cracked.

I guess there is always a chance it won't work, but if you see ANY progress is it is starting to do its job.

 

[rasouth]

I did another compression check. It was the same... 115. I put a couple of tablespoons of oil in the cylinder and it came up to 120. So... Not the rings? I did the same on the 140 cylinder... still 140, then with oil it jumped to 165. Rings? As of the water out the tail pipe... a lot was coming out. My son said as I revved the engine a stream of water was coming out. This lasted around 5 to 8 minutes and then no visible water, but I held my hand to exhaust and it became moist.
I will try running it without plug and see what happens.