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No one can figure this out!! (Brakes)

Bkeller

New Member
Joined
July 19, 2014
Messages
6
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City, State
Columbus, Ohio
Year, Model & Trim Level
2011 Explorer Limited
Thank you for taking the time to read this. I am at the end of the line with my 2011 Ex limited, 110k miles.

Problem- about once in every 10 times driving it, and only in stop and go traffic my brakes go VERY soft. I mean so soft that I can push down to where they end. ( I always know it’s coming, it’s not instant, they get soft in maybe 4 total presses.) If I push the pedal far down (almost to the end) all of a sudden the ABS will pulsate and it seemed like it was my front left that was pulsatating/ locking up and it wasn’t stopping me very well at all. I would say when this happens I have maybe 10-20% of the braking power that I have normally. This has happened 20+ times to me and once to my wife (she pulled over as she was scared out of her mind). When this happens, I limp it home and pull it in the garage. The next morning the brakes will work absolutely perfect until the next traffic jam that I get into.. it could be later that day or a week later. Also, I have drove my Explorer 3 hours (twice) in the middle of the night (no traffic) with no problems whatsoever, Brakes worked perfect.

Solution 1- I brought it to a local shop (non-Ford) and they had it for a week and could not replicate when the brakes go out. They suggested I replace pads (4), rotors (2 front), calipers ( 2 front). $1000. The brakes weren’t even 2 years old, but since the shop recommended it I was willing to do whatever to make my Explorer safe for my family. The next day driving home the brakes went totally soft. Failure.

Solution 2- I brought it to a large Ford Dealer/ Service center, they have had it 12 days and they can’t replicate it. I asked if they could just have a Tech drive it to and from work (because I know it will eventually happen but they said that’s not safe for their employee. I KNOW.) They say it’s fine. Failure.

Solution 3- do you know? Please Please Please HELP.
 



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Data logg.
 






was it dry out, no dirt or anything on the road surface?

So with a hard stop and the ABS engaged, it does or doesn't stop very fast?(passengers and anything on the seat should go flying)

Randomly the pedal goes soft? <--if so I would have the master cylinder changed out and complete flush of brake system

the shop changing the rotors or pads doesn't make sense, changing the calipers if the fluid was leaking out of them does.
 






Id go with the master cylinder as well. Csnt bekieve they recommended new pads and rotors to fix this. Looks like they were just looking for a good pay day.
 






was it dry out, no dirt or anything on the road surface?

So with a hard stop and the ABS engaged, it does or doesn't stop very fast?(passengers and anything on the seat should go flying)

Randomly the pedal goes soft? <--if so I would have the master cylinder changed out and complete flush of brake system

the shop changing the rotors or pads doesn't make sense, changing the calipers if the fluid was leaking out of them does.


Thanks for the input Reserved-
When the ABS engaged, it was very wet and slick, it stopped very slowly. Yea, it’s only once in a while the brakes fail. If it was the master cylinder, wouldn’t it always have an issue? (I have no clue).
 






Thanks for the input Reserved-
When the ABS engaged, it was very wet and slick, it stopped very slowly. Yea, it’s only once in a while the brakes fail. If it was the master cylinder, wouldn’t it always have an issue? (I have no clue).

No, it can have a slow leak which could drop it to the floor and then it recovers.

Here is a deacription of a bad master cylinder.

"One of the first symptoms commonly associated with a bad or failing brake master cylinder is abnormal brake pedal behavior. ... A bad brake master cylinder may result in a pedal that feels mushy, spongy, or that slowly sinks to the floor when depressed"

$75 part

Hydraulic System for 2011 Ford Explorer | Auto Nation Ford White Bear Lake
 






Just to clarify, under normal driving/braking, your brake pedal randomly goes "soft" and you can push it to the floor, but it doesn't seem to really stop your vehicle well but eventually the vehicle does stop? Or does the pedal go "soft" and as you continue to push it to the floor, the ABS all of a sudden activates and still doesn't really stop the vehicle well?

If it is truly random, I would look to the ABS module/controller (possibly bad valve/solenoid/wiring). Probably wouldn't hurt to have the system bled and insure there is absolutely no air in the lines.

If you had a bad master cylinder, you'd likely be getting consistent, or at least semi-consistent, issues, rather than random.

I am not suggesting that you do this and you should proceed at your own risk if you do, but it is possible to temporarily disable the ABS and drive the vehicle to see if the problem recurs which may help you determine if the problem is in the primary braking system or a problem caused by the ABS module.
 






Just to clarify, under normal driving/braking, your brake pedal randomly goes "soft" and you can push it to the floor, but it doesn't seem to really stop your vehicle well but eventually the vehicle does stop? Or does the pedal go "soft" and as you continue to push it to the floor, the ABS all of a sudden activates and still doesn't really stop the vehicle well?

If it is truly random, I would look to the ABS module/controller (possibly bad valve/solenoid/wiring). Probably wouldn't hurt to have the system bled and insure there is absolutely no air in the lines.

If you had a bad master cylinder, you'd likely be getting consistent, or at least semi-consistent, issues, rather than random.

I am not suggesting that you do this and you should proceed at your own risk if you do, but it is possible to temporarily disable the ABS and drive the vehicle to see if the problem recurs which may help you determine if the problem is in the primary braking system or a problem caused by the ABS module.



KayGee- When this problem is happening, the pedal is totally soft for 70% of the travel to the floor. Then in catches the last 30% of travel and gives very low quality stopping power. When I pushed to the stopper, that's when the ABS kicked in and pulsated the tire (locking it up and releasing very quickly when it was wet) It felt like it was only the front left as it was pulling to the left too. I think this would be an easy problem to diagnose if it happened all the time, but it doesn't.
 






I suggest a brake-fluid flush/exchange. Brake fluid is hygroscopic and absorbs moisture over time. As brake fluid "ages" its boiling point is reduced because of increased water content. Stopped in traffic --with high underhood temperatures -- your Explorer's brake fluid could develop vapor pockets within the brake lines, calipers, master cylinder, or ABS plumbing. Vapor is compressible, so your brake pedal travels closer to the floor in order to compress the vapor.

This would explain why you experience this problem only when you're in stop-and-go traffic, and the issue resolves itself when things cool down and the vapor pocket(s) in the brake system condense.

Just one man's theory …
 






When the peddle goes soft again, try pumping the brake 4-5 times and see if it rebuilds resistance. If you pump it and it gets hard, then leave it alone for awhile and it gets soft to the floor, you probably have air in the system. If you have air in the line, it generally manifests as a spongy feeling, but can be corrected by bleeding your brakes. Check for fluid leaks or accumulation from the back of the brake pedal and along the lines - there's also a chance a seal in the master cylinder might be going bad if you've put on 110K miles in mixed conditions. I'd guess its a Rubber cup in the master on its way out, air in the line, or a leak. Those are your 3 choices :--)
 






I agree, a complete fluid flush would be a good start. Frankly, might as well swap the master cylinder, they can be had for well under $100.
 






I can't say that I've ever seen or experienced brake fluid pick up so much moisture that it boiled and caused steam pockets that degraded braking to almost 0, but I suppose it's possible. If you want to start with easy stuff, have the brake fluid exchanged and bled properly. If you do that and still have intermittent issues, then you need to move on and try to determine if the problem is with your primary brakes or the being caused by ABS.

Some manufacturers specify that brake fluid should be flushed every 2 years/30K miles and others say it pretty much never needs to be done. I flush mine every brake job/4 years.
 






replace master cylinder and complete flush.:thumbsup::thumbsup:. Yes the master cylinder can fail intermittently, they probably didn't suggest it because its not a normal failure for a late model vehicle. If it was my vehicle that's what I would have changed.

Could be ABS system valving but I doubt it, plus its also very expensive to just replace that item.:D
 






My experience with mc's has been failure or no failure. I've seen some fail on slow pedal push, but still "work" with a fast/hard push of the pedal or pumping. I can't say I've ever had one that worked fine most of the time and only failed once in a while at random.

Good luck getting things fixed and hopefully you report back when it's all said and done with the resolution.
 






My experience with mc's has been failure or no failure. I've seen some fail on slow pedal push, but still "work" with a fast/hard push of the pedal or pumping. I can't say I've ever had one that worked fine most of the time and only failed once in a while at random.

Good luck getting things fixed and hopefully you report back when it's all said and done with the resolution.


I will absolutely report back. I appreciate everyone's opinions very much.
 






I will absolutely report back. I appreciate everyone's opinions very much.


I replaced the MC and did a full flush and I have not had any more issues with my brakes. Thanks to all of you, I think we have this figured out. THANK YOU.
 






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