Water pump failure leads to dead engine

[peterk9]

What You Should Know About Fail-Safe Cooling
If the engine coolant supply is depleted, this feature allows the vehicle to be driven temporarily before incremental component damage is incurred. The fail-safe distance depends on ambient temperatures, vehicle load and terrain.

I don't think this issue is as much about a loss of coolant as it is about the coolant mixing with the oil in the engine. Running an engine with alternating cylinder operation won't help if the oil is contaminated with coolant.

Peter

 

[Minter66]

Just spreading the word that a Class action was filed. They already called me and interviewed me about what happened with my Taurus. Additional reports (especially those who had it repaired by Ford and/or had the engine blow) will just help strengthen their case.


This defect was solved in the newer gen 3.5's, so there was no reason Ford couldn't recall the old water pumps.


Links:

https://www.ktmc.com/ford-lincoln-wa...engine-failure

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...300697193.html

 

[peterk9]

Welcome to the Forum.

NOTE: See post #531 on the preceding page.

Peter

 

[Dhunt]

My 2008 Lincoln MKX with just over 100,000 miles became another victim of the water pump issue. No signs of leaking or anything that would make me think that my engine was going to seize. I was driving along and my car just died. I had no leaking coming from my car. My car smelled hot, but did not show on the gauge that it was over heating. I had it towed to a mechanic. The mechanic said the water pump was leaking coolant into the engine and would have to be replaced at a cost of $8000. After researching the water pump malfunctions for any recalls, I found that there is a class action law suit against Ford for the kind of engine my Lincoln has. The 3.5 L. I completed the form and was contacted by the law firm. I was informed, they are trying to get Ford to grant a recall for this issue due to the devastating malfunction. They stated this is happening all across the country. They have spoken to a lot of people who have had this same issue and have been stranded or paying a ridiculous amount to fix. The following is a list of vehicles this water pump issue has been affecting:
Ford Edge 2007 - 2018, Ford Explorer 2011 - 2018, Ford F150 2015 - 2017, Ford Flex 2009 - 2018, Ford Fusion 2010 - 2012, Ford Taurus 2008 - 2018, Lincoln MKX 2007 - 2010, Lincoln MKZ 2007 - 2012, and Mercury Sable 2008 - 2009. I would highly recommend to contact them, whether you still own the vehicle or not. This is the direct website: info@ktmc.com where you can contact them and be put on a list. Hopefully, you find this helpful. The more awareness and with more people coming forward with this issue, there is a better chance of being granted a recall.

 

[Sixonemale]

This defect was solved in the newer gen 3.5's, so there was no reason Ford couldn't recall the old water pumps.

I keep reading this, but no one has explained how the defect has been solved. If you or anyone else knows how the defect has been solved please explain and cite the Ford or credible source. IMO if the overall design has not been changed, meaning that the water pump somehow becomes external to the engine block, the defect will always exist.

 

[sheltonfilms]

I keep reading this, but no one has explained how the defect has been solved. If you or anyone else knows how the defect has been solved please explain and cite the Ford or credible source. IMO if the overall design has not been changed, meaning that the water pump somehow becomes external to the engine block, the defect will always exist.

It’s called 5 concentric orings with 4 weep holes with 4 moisture meters indicating which level of screwed you are at.

 

[Dhunt]

From all the info I have gathered Ford hasn't done anything to fix this issue. I've spoken to a couple Ford dealerships where I live and their not even aware of this problem. The law firm that I talked to said that Ford hasn't acknowledged any issues about these water pumps destroying engines. That's why its important to join this class action lawsuit, the more people who come forward about this problem the better chance we have of getting a recall. I just bought my Lincoln last year and still owe quite a bit of money on this car loan. And i refuse to pay $8000 out of my own pocket for a used engine that will eventually have the same issue. With all these different cars and trucks that this is affecting from 2007-2018, Ford needs to make this right.

 

[peterk9]

From all the info I have gathered Ford hasn't done anything to fix this issue. I've spoken to a couple Ford dealerships where I live and their not even aware of this problem.......

That's not surprising at all. Unless they have had several owners come in with the problem it wouldn't be something they would be aware of. My Ford/Lincoln dealership hasn't had any owner come in with this issue. In general, the community here is more aware of certain issues that a dealership.

Peter

 

[Sixonemale]

From all the info I have gathered Ford hasn't done anything to fix this issue. I've spoken to a couple Ford dealerships where I live and their not even aware of this problem. The law firm that I talked to said that Ford hasn't acknowledged any issues about these water pumps destroying engines. That's why its important to join this class action lawsuit, the more people who come forward about this problem the better chance we have of getting a recall. I just bought my Lincoln last year and still owe quite a bit of money on this car loan. And i refuse to pay $8000 out of my own pocket for a used engine that will eventually have the same issue. With all these different cars and trucks that this is affecting from 2007-2018, Ford needs to make this right.

First off I think it's amazing that an automobile can be made and sold with the potential of an $8,000 repair before it's projected life of 150,000 miles. Worse than that is that is that several owners within this thread did not receive a warning of any sort that coolant was leaking internally into their engine oil.

I’m not an attorney, but in general one of the first questions in a lawsuit is “what are the damages?” So, how many of these engines have been sold, I'm guessing in the millions, so if only 5% of these engines have seized due to a failed water pump before 150,000 miles, this becomes a billion dollar lawsuit very quickly. Not all engine replacements are done at Ford dealerships, but the law firm can easily request this information from Ford regarding how many of these engines have been sold aftermarket, replaced and why. I’m guessing with this design defect Ford has made a lot of revenue from it.

The most unfortunate part of this is that Ford did not receive any TARP funding, but I believe did receive a $5.9 billion loan from DOE in 2009 “to help pay for investments in more fuel-efficient engines, hybrids and electric cars and also to convert two truck plants to production of cars.” Fast forward to today, they are one year behind other auto manufacturers in introducing new designs, their stock price has languished over the last five years during a period when US auto sales peaked, their credit rating was recently slashed and they are now focused on making more profitable trucks/SUVs rather than cars. Certainly seems to be a mismanaged company with no clear vision of the future. I would assume that any sensor recall or fix for this issue may not be all that easy for Ford to comply with so many engines of this type sold, hence the reason most lawsuits end up in settlements with no party admitting any wrong doing.

 

[blwnsmoke]

The most unfortunate part of this is that Ford did not receive any TARP funding, but I believe did receive a $5.9 billion loan from DOE in 2009 “to help pay for investments in more fuel-efficient engines, hybrids and electric cars and also to convert two truck plants to production of cars.” Fast forward to today, they are one year behind other auto manufacturers in introducing new designs, their stock price has languished over the last five years during a period when US auto sales peaked, their credit rating was recently slashed and they are now focused on making more profitable trucks/SUVs rather than cars. Certainly seems to be a mismanaged company with no clear vision of the future. I would assume that any sensor recall or fix for this issue may not be all that easy for Ford to comply with so many engines of this type sold, hence the reason most lawsuits end up in settlements with no party admitting any wrong doing.

There stock price will never go very high the way the Ford family has it set up. Majority is family owned and there is no way for any type of hostile takeover like there is with other companies. They also have far more $$$ in the bank then debt that is owed which puts them in a very good financial situation. They could easily pay off all debt to $0 and still have billions in the bank.. that is not the signs of a high risk company.

 

[ctmhou]

Well, as fate would have it, my 2013 Ford Explorer Limited started having a leak of antifreeze in my driveway. Drove to a shop outside my neighborhood to see a friend who had bought the business and had them look at it and lo and behold my truck is on a lift for a water pump and timing chain replacement, to the tune of $2400. With a (3) year/36000 warranty. Hey had no idea about this issue until I got back home to look it up on this forum. The mechanic said that I was lucky and recommended that I not drive it anywhere. He said that I can have it towed to a shop of my choice or they would do it. I chose them. I’m hopeful that they can get it back to original shape. Only has 64000.

 

[blwnsmoke]

Well, as fate would have it, my 2013 Ford Explorer Limited started having a leak of antifreeze in my driveway. Drove to a shop outside my neighborhood to see a friend who had bought the business and had them look at it and lo and behold my truck is on a lift for a water pump and timing chain replacement, to the tune of $2400. With a (3) year/36000 warranty. Hey had no idea about this issue until I got back home to look it up on this forum. The mechanic said that I was lucky and recommended that I not drive it anywhere. He said that I can have it towed to a shop of my choice or they would do it. I chose them. I’m hopeful that they can get it back to original shape. Only has 6400

I would get other quotes, that is very high, $50 water pump puts you at $2,300 in labor or about 23 hours.. It is nowhere near a 23 hour job.

 

[ctmhou]

I would get other quotes, that is very high, $50 water pump puts you at $2,300 in labor or about 23 hours.. It is nowhere near a 23 hour job.

Labor is $1226 for 11 hours of labor and $1146 for all the parts including engine flush and all assorted items. I’ll check with Ford today, but I’m not confident that they are capable of doing the work. It’s just sad, at 64000 miles, that this should’ve happened, but here I am.

 

[mcpcartier]

I would get other quotes, that is very high, $50 water pump puts you at $2,300 in labor or about 23 hours.. It is nowhere near a 23 hour job.

Good idea to get other quotes....

But you mention timing chains and if you're doing that I'll share my parts costs for the same job.....


Waterpump - ac delco 252955 $59.78
Valve cover gasket kit - mahle vs50722 $54.78
timing cover seal - mahle 67616 $6.51
timing chain kit - melling 31049SA $359.78
Accessory Belt - motorcraft JK6457A $13.12
cam phaser intake bolts qty 2 AT4Z6279D $7.04
cam phaser exhaust bolts qty 2 AT4Z6279E $7.48
coolant - dex-cool wss-m97b44-d2 $18.31
oil, oil filter, gallon of distilled water, scotchbrite pads $37.39

total $565....

there were other costs....sealant comes to mind....also the cam locking tool...I was easily on north of $600 if I'm counting everything.

if you mark up $565 by 15% (modest amount) you're at $650 which is $1650 in labor....16.5 hours is fair for this job. Maybe a little less. Maybe they get parts a slightly better price, but maybe they mark up 20% (still fair).

I think you'd be hard pressed to get down to $2k for this job done right...so there is a little room. But who do you trust.

 

[ctmhou]

Good idea to get other quotes....

But you mention timing chains and if you're doing that I'll share my parts costs for the same job.....


Waterpump - ac delco 252955 $59.78
Valve cover gasket kit - mahle vs50722 $54.78
timing cover seal - mahle 67616 $6.51
timing chain kit - melling 31049SA $359.78
Accessory Belt - motorcraft JK6457A $13.12
cam phaser intake bolts qty 2 AT4Z6279D $7.04
cam phaser exhaust bolts qty 2 AT4Z6279E $7.48
coolant - dex-cool wss-m97b44-d2 $18.31
oil, oil filter, gallon of distilled water, scotchbrite pads $37.39

total $565....

there were other costs....sealant comes to mind....also the cam locking tool...I was easily on north of $600 if I'm counting everything.

if you mark up $565 by 15% (modest amount) you're at $650 which is $1650 in labor....16.5 hours is fair for this job. Maybe a little less. Maybe they get parts a slightly better price, but maybe they mark up 20% (still fair).

I think you'd be hard pressed to get down to $2k for this job done right...so there is a little room. But who do you trust.

My experience with the area Ford shops makes me highly suspicious that they have ever gone to a mechanics class ever. This shop has also offered a 3 year/36000 mile nationwide warranty. I seriously don’t trust my Ford dealership to do the work right.

 

[Sixonemale]

There stock price will never go very high the way the Ford family has it set up. Majority is family owned and there is no way for any type of hostile takeover like there is with other companies. They also have far more $$$ in the bank then debt that is owed which puts them in a very good financial situation. They could easily pay off all debt to $0 and still have billions in the bank.. that is not the signs of a high risk company.

Based on the above, the bad news is that the stock will never go very high, but the good news is that Ford is in a good financial situation. If so, they should put aside a slush fund to replace 3.5L duratec engines that seize before 150,000 miles due to a failed water pump and flawed design. A failed water pump that causes catastrophic damage to the engine is not the fault of an owner so long as the interval cooling systems inspections are done and the coolant is changed at 100,000 miles.

 

[bigdude2468]

I mentioned this a couple of years ago. GM has / had an issue with a transmission, the 6T530 that was in many mid size sedans and SUV's. A defect was discovered in what is called the 3-5 wave plate. Reverse would go out and it would not shift from second gear. GM extended the warranty to 125,000 miles including subsequent owners. I had a 2008 Saturn Vue that we gave to our son with 75,000 miles on it. Two years ago at 110,000 miles the transmission failed due to the defect. GM replaced the transmission, no questions asked. Chrysler had an issue with corrosion of the rear A/C on their mini vans. The piping under the vehicle would corrode. When our Dodge Caravan rear A/C failed Dodge repaired it at no charge at 75,000 miles. While I like our Explorer due to the water pump issue I doubt I not buy another Ford. I take good care of a vehicle and expect them to go 150,000 miles without a major issue. I have an extended warranty to 100,000 miles so I am covered until I reach that mileage. Once I hit 100,000 it's gone. Not standing behind an obvious poor design / fault cannot be excused and the catastrophic failure of an engine due to a poor design. Hopefully the class action lawsuit will get Ford's attention.

 

[sheltonfilms]

I think I know of a way detecting oil contamination, hopefully early.

Coolant will thicken engine oil. Thicker oil means higher viscosity. Higher viscosity means higher oil pressure for a given rpm/temp.

If you could add a true pressure sensor (factory is just a switch) then you could have something check for proper pressure levels at given temps. If it gets above a normal range it could warn you, and if it got past this point it could kill the engine. You then could do some checks to see if coolant level is low, signs of coolant on dipstick, etc. and make sure it wasn't a false positive.

 

[KayGee]

Not sure if that will save you before engine damage occurs. If one is at the point where they are worried about this issue from a time/mileage standpoint, it is probably better to just be diligent about inspecting the water pump weep hole, checking coolant levels, and checking oil levels/condition. Or, just buy the esp and not worry about it. If one is lucky, the esp will cover some other major repair/s before it has to cover the waterpump.

 

[blwnsmoke]

Can anyone confirm the new water pumps are all double geared now? I remember discussion on it but can't find it in this thread at least the last 5 or 6 pages. I did a search on automation for 2011 and 2015 and they both use the same pump so it didn't change throughout those years. Part # DG1Z-8501-C.

Then I did a search for 2016, 2017 and 2018 and all 3 of those model years use Part # AT4Z-8501-B.

So I'm trying to figure out if the part # change is because the 16+ use the double geared pump and the 11-15s still use the single.

And lastly, anyone know if it can be retrofitted (and what parts do I need to retrofit)? I'm on my way down to the dealership in about 3 hours to negotiate the part prices.. they typically will match Autonation for me.