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Timing Chain Already???

I know this is an old thread, but I have a 2013 Explorer Sport that was throwing a P0016 code. I tried swapping the CPS from bank 1 to bank 2, cleared the codes, and the same P0016 code reappeared two days later, so it did not follow the original sensor.

It's at the dealership now for diagnosis. I will update when I hear more.

I purchased the vehicle used in August 2016 with 28k miles. It now has 74,6xx miles. Other than a very occasional rough idle, I don't have any other symptoms or driveability issues.

Just got a call back from the dealership, and they confirmed it needs a timing chain and related parts to the tune of $3230. I asked them to do the water pump at the same time, which brought the out-the-door cost of repair to $3481.
 



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Just got a call back from the dealership, and they confirmed it needs a timing chain and related parts to the tune of $3230. I asked them to do the water pump at the same time, which brought the out-the-door cost of repair to $3481.

Ask for the quote in writing so you can see a break down.

That is robbery for a timing chain job. You should be half that price.
 






I suspect the vct components are included in that price which isn't bad if it includes all of them (~$1000 in parts alone).

When you get the p00xx codes, you can almost guarantee it's a phaser issue. I've worked on a decent amount of the 3.5/3.7s over the last few years and I've only seen 1 phaser fail and it was in like a 2012 flex with under 100k.
 






Ask for the quote in writing so you can see a break down.

That is robbery for a timing chain job. You should be half that price.

They are supposed to be emailing.

I suspect the vct components are included in that price which isn't bad if it includes all of them (~$1000 in parts alone).

When you get the p00xx codes, you can almost guarantee it's a phaser issue. I've worked on a decent amount of the 3.5/3.7s over the last few years and I've only seen 1 phaser fail and it was in like a 2012 flex with under 100k.

He did indicate phasers verbally on the phone, but I am awaiting the full breakdown.

Thanks, guys!
 






They are supposed to be emailing.



He did indicate phasers verbally on the phone, but I am awaiting the full breakdown.

Thanks, guys!

Just an FYI, labor on a water pump change is 12-14 hours. Factor a labor rate of $110 an hour... you are looking at $1,300 - $1,450. In order to do the water pump, you need to take the timing chain off so there should be no increase in price.

There is no way in hell you are talking $2,000 in parts.

Water pump $110 MSRP, $67 online
Water Pump gasket $7 MSRP, $4 online
Timing chain $68 MSRP, $45 online

If you do the secondary chains, $23.48 MSRP, $15.50 online (need 2)

Tensioner $37 MSRP, $25 online

Nowhere can you even come close to that amount.
 






They are supposed to be emailing.



He did indicate phasers verbally on the phone, but I am awaiting the full breakdown.

Thanks, guys!

If you're going to pay out of pocket for the repair, i highly recommend you call a few shops with a good standing reputation and have them give a quote. They might use non-ford parts but will most likely be just as good of quality and overall price should be less.
 






If you're going to pay out of pocket for the repair, i highly recommend you call a few shops with a good standing reputation and have them give a quote. They might use non-ford parts but will most likely be just as good of quality and overall price should be less.

The parts are not marked up enough to go aftermarket. With Ford parts giving a 2 year, unlimited mileage warranty on both parts AND labor.. it is worth the few extra dollars.
 






Just got a call back from the dealership, and they confirmed it needs a timing chain and related parts to the tune of $3230. I asked them to do the water pump at the same time, which brought the out-the-door cost of repair to $3481.

I agree with others that the quote is outrageously high. You may want to reverse engineer it. More specifically, once you get your detailed quote, call another dealership and request a quote to replace your water pump. Once you get that detailed quote, tell them you have a OEM timing chain and related components that you would like to have them put on, since the old one has already been taken off. This should get your total cost down to around $2,000.
 






The parts are not marked up enough to go aftermarket. With Ford parts giving a 2 year, unlimited mileage warranty on both parts AND labor.. it is worth the few extra dollars.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this.
 






As I understand regarding the 24 month unlimited warranty...Example- you buy a remanufacturered transmission and install it yourself and it later fails within the 24 months. Ford will warranty the transmission and will R&R at no cost to you. This was explained to me by the techs and seasoned parts dept.at Ford dealership.
Example 2. Parts installed by Ford dealership and parts fail within 24 minth period - Ford will replace at no cost to customers.
Not sure if independent shop bought Ford parts and it fails if Ford will warranty parts and reimburse independent shop. I recall reading something to that effect some time ago that they do.
Aftermarket parts are warranted but there is no labor allowance.
The price difference between OEM and aftermarket can be pretty close on some parts and also if the parts guys see you as regular customer they can "price accordingly" making the decision simple. I myself like the warranty AND labor inclusive if the part fails.
 






I suspect you have a phaser that is either not responder or sluggishly responding. And that's not a simple repair. Another issue - that is sometimes overlooked is the wire harness. It's possible there is a nick or broken insulation on the CPS line. always a potential issue.

Good luck though.
 






Thanks for the feedback guys. My wife and I have a 2 year old and a newborn, and that puts my time at a premium, so I just told the dealer to fix it. Unfortunately, I don't have the luxury of time to shop around for a better deal right now. If it were summer, I might have tried to tackle this at home, but not while at the tail end of winter in Wisconsin, lol.

I attached the quote for posterity. Including the water pump, it was $813 in parts and 16 hours of labor, plus the initial $99.95 diagnostics fee. They dropped the engine to complete the repair.
 

Attachments

  • Timing Chain - Water Pump - Estimate.pdf
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Thanks for the feedback guys. My wife and I have a 2 year old and a newborn, and that puts my time at a premium, so I just told the dealer to fix it. Unfortunately, I don't have the luxury of time to shop around for a better deal right now. If it were summer, I might have tried to tackle this at home, but not while at the tail end of winter in Wisconsin, lol.

I attached the quote for posterity. Including the water pump, it was $813 in parts and 16 hours of labor, plus the initial $99.95 diagnostics fee. They dropped the engine to complete the repair.

So the first line states 1 hour of labor $99.95. So how does 17 hours of labor equal $2,358? That's a labor rate of $138.70 which is INSANE!!
 






So the first line states 1 hour of labor $99.95. So how does 17 hours of labor equal $2,358? That's a labor rate of $138.70 which is INSANE!!

Yeah, I noticed that after I authorized the repair. I’m going to be following up on that.

Side note, I PM’d you about Joel’s contact info and the ESP. After this repair, I’m strongly considering a 3/60,000 ESP. I had an injector replaced under emissions warranty, and now this. I don’t trust this vehicle to last, and I’m not in a position at the moment to dump it for something else.
 






Yeah, I noticed that after I authorized the repair. I’m going to be following up on that.

Side note, I PM’d you about Joel’s contact info and the ESP. After this repair, I’m strongly considering a 3/60,000 ESP. I had an injector replaced under emissions warranty, and now this. I don’t trust this vehicle to last, and I’m not in a position at the moment to dump it for something else.

I actually wrote you back a minute ago regarding it. Your dealer should be able to fill out the form for free since it technically is being repaired to proper working order. Then you can get in touch with Joel and email him the form in order to get an ESP.
 






I actually wrote you back a minute ago regarding it. Your dealer should be able to fill out the form for free since it technically is being repaired to proper working order. Then you can get in touch with Joel and email him the form in order to get an ESP.

Good thought! I will call the dealer in the AM and ask if they will complete for form for me. Thanks!!
 






Thanks for the feedback guys. My wife and I have a 2 year old and a newborn, and that puts my time at a premium, so I just told the dealer to fix it. Unfortunately, I don't have the luxury of time to shop around for a better deal right now. If it were summer, I might have tried to tackle this at home, but not while at the tail end of winter in Wisconsin, lol.

I attached the quote for posterity. Including the water pump, it was $813 in parts and 16 hours of labor, plus the initial $99.95 diagnostics fee. They dropped the engine to complete the repair.

There clearly are some inconsistencies with this quote. First off, the diagnostic fee usually goes toward repair, if the customer chooses to go forward with the work. Secondly, the diagnostic fee is 1 hour of labor at $99.95/hr, while the 16 hours of labor is at rate of $147.38/hr that includes 5.1% tax. I’m not sure why the diagnostic labor rate is different from the repair labor rate, unless the diagnostic fee is discounted to get the customer through the front door. The total labor rate is a mix of the two rates: $2,358 + $99.95 = $2,457.95. It's somewhat surprising that they would charge you $40 for miscellaneous fees and an admin charge of $.89 cents for a repair cost of this magnitude. I sure hope they gave you a 2019 rental with unlimited mileage and hope the ESP works out for you.
 






There clearly are some inconsistencies with this quote. First off, the diagnostic fee usually goes toward repair, if the customer choses to go forward with the work. Secondly, the diagnostic fee is 1 hour of labor at $99.95/hr, while the 16 hours of labor is at rate of $147.38/hr that includes 5.1% tax. I’m not sure why the diagnostic labor rate is different from the repair labor rate by increase of $47.43/hr. The total labor rate is a mix of the two labor rates: $2,358 + $99.95 = $2,457.95. They then laughably charge you $40 for miscellaneous fees and an admin charge of $.89 cents, kind of insulting IMO. I sure hope they gave you a 2019 rental with unlimited mileage and I hope the ESP works out for you.

Im not sure how each state works but I know in Massachusetts (I am in NH which doesnt have sales tax), you are not taxed on labor. It is a sales tax on product, not a person.

Example, had my 2 windows tinted in MA which was $130. $100 of labor, $30 for tint, 6.25% sales tax on the $30, no tax on the $100 of labor.

And I also agree on the diag fee. Should be put towards the repair if having the work done there.
 






The parts pricing seems decent for a dealer but labor time is a little high. Changing water pump is 10.2 hours book time. Then your right at the phasers so shouldn't be any more 2 hours to do those. Unfortunately once you authorize they got you. Hopefully it all goes smoothly as your engine didn't need to be removed to do the work, there's plenty of room to do it all in the truck.
 



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In Wisconsin auto repair is considered a taxable service, so parts and labor are both subject to sales tax.

I called the dealer this AM and asked them point-blank what their standard labor rate was - $128.95/hr. I asked him to help me understand why I was quoted $147.38/hr for the job, and he indicated that it could be because of the grid pricing system they use. He put me on hold for a few minutes to verify numbers, and came back on saying he spoke with the service manager and they would honor the $128.95/hr for the job (obviously still high, but better than almost $150!). He did indicate that based on their grid pricing that the labor rate on the estimate is accurate.

I'll save a couple hundred bucks on labor with this revision in price, and based on how all this has gone down, I'll take it as a small win. (In other words being beaten with a spatula is better than being beaten with a baseball bat. HAHA)

Out of curiosity, is the "grid pricing" system commonplace at all Ford/Lincoln dealerships, or does each dealership set its pricing structure independently? Additionally, there is a stand-alone Lincoln Black Label dealer somewhat close by that I'm thinking about utilizing in the future. I've heard that the stand-alone Lincoln dealers tend to provide a better overall experience.
 






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