Peculiar issues after water pump replacement/oil pan swap

[Hunter32]

Hey Guys,
Over the last 2 weeks I have taken apart and pieced back together several systems on my 1996 5.0l

This includes replacing my old aluminum oil pan with the stamped steel one. This required shorter fasteners to hold it on since the aluminum had thicker bosses than the stamped metal thickness.

I replaced all 8 spark plug wires, 1 by 1.

I also replaced the water pump and redid the timing chain cover gasket to the block while I was in there.

I got everything buttoned up and put in fresh coolant, 5qt of oil, and a new oil filter. I have a solid axle swap up front with a steering box which consumes the space that used to have my oil cooler, so now I have a remote mount oil filter coming off of the engine block.

Trust me guys, all of these details do play a role in this..

I could tell there was a misfire on the first few startups (each lasting for less than 5 seconds as I was trying to diagnose the misfire). On the next startup, the engine started having a bad knocking noise to it. Checked everything for clearance to fan, interference to the new oil pan, etc. but could not find anything. The noise only got worse over the next 2 startups. I did not let the engine run for longer then 2-3 seconds with this knocking noise going on.

Upon inspection, I realized that the inlet and outlet hoses were swapped coming off the engine block. So the oil pump was trying to move oil but [i assume] there is a 1-way valve in the filter that did not allow the oil to flow for these last few startups.So I checked the dip stick and it is barely touching the bottom of the dipstick but is well below MIN. (Remember I just poured in a 5 quart jug). I added about 2 more quarts and the oil level finally settled up at about the 1/2 way mark between MIN and MAX.

QUESTION #1:
Does the stamped oil pan require a different volume of oil in the sump?

At this point, I swapped the inlet/outlet hoses and turned the engine over with the coil wires removed, so that the plugs wouldn't fire, several times. My thought being that this would move some oil around at a low speed since the oil flow direction was correct now and I could verify whether the engine was still making the knock or not. Reluctantly, there is no knock when the engine is turned over with the starter.

I hooked the coils back up and fired it up (for <2 seconds) and the knock was still there.

So I'm stumped at this point and started trying to think deeper--I recall when removing the harmonic balancer to get the timing chain cover off, the balancer and the crankshaft tone ring spun relative to each other on the dampener thats in between the two pieces.

QUESTION #2:
Would altering the timing marks for the CPS cause the engine to knock? Note the tone ring may have spun a decent amount; not just a little bit.

So to summarize, the engine started up initially fine, with only a slight [possible] misfire, and developed a bad knock after several quick startups (i.e. not an initial mechanical interference issue). The engine was [likely] starved of oil for a small # of startups.

QUESTION #3:
Would this possibly ruin the oil pump if it was trying to pump oil into a stopped up circuit, even if not for that long? Could this noise be coming from a blow pump?

I know this is alot of information and questions, but figured some details could relate to some of ya'lls past experiences. Please provide any input, even if it seems trivial. The engine noise is a very loud KNOCK (i'm freaking out about it) but it only happens when the truck is allowed to fire up, so I'm hoping it's not mechanical

Thanks in advanced guys

 

[radman]

Hey Guys,
Over the last 2 weeks I have taken apart and pieced back together several systems on my 1996 5.0l

This includes replacing my old aluminum oil pan with the stamped steel one. This required shorter fasteners to hold it on since the aluminum had thicker bosses than the stamped metal thickness.

I replaced all 8 spark plug wires, 1 by 1.

I also replaced the water pump and redid the timing chain cover gasket to the block while I was in there.

I got everything buttoned up and put in fresh coolant, 5qt of oil, and a new oil filter. I have a solid axle swap up front with a steering box which consumes the space that used to have my oil cooler, so now I have a remote mount oil filter coming off of the engine block.

Trust me guys, all of these details do play a role in this..

I could tell there was a misfire on the first few startups (each lasting for less than 5 seconds as I was trying to diagnose the misfire). On the next startup, the engine started having a bad knocking noise to it. Checked everything for clearance to fan, interference to the new oil pan, etc. but could not find anything. The noise only got worse over the next 2 startups. I did not let the engine run for longer then 2-3 seconds with this knocking noise going on.

Upon inspection, I realized that the inlet and outlet hoses were swapped coming off the engine block. So the oil pump was trying to move oil but [i assume] there is a 1-way valve in the filter that did not allow the oil to flow for these last few startups.So I checked the dip stick and it is barely touching the bottom of the dipstick but is well below MIN. (Remember I just poured in a 5 quart jug). I added about 2 more quarts and the oil level finally settled up at about the 1/2 way mark between MIN and MAX.

QUESTION #1:
Does the stamped oil pan require a different volume of oil in the sump?

At this point, I swapped the inlet/outlet hoses and turned the engine over with the coil wires removed, so that the plugs wouldn't fire, several times. My thought being that this would move some oil around at a low speed since the oil flow direction was correct now and I could verify whether the engine was still making the knock or not. Reluctantly, there is no knock when the engine is turned over with the starter.

I hooked the coils back up and fired it up (for <2 seconds) and the knock was still there.

So I'm stumped at this point and started trying to think deeper--I recall when removing the harmonic balancer to get the timing chain cover off, the balancer and the crankshaft tone ring spun relative to each other on the dampener thats in between the two pieces.

QUESTION #2:
Would altering the timing marks for the CPS cause the engine to knock? Note the tone ring may have spun a decent amount; not just a little bit.

So to summarize, the engine started up initially fine, with only a slight [possible] misfire, and developed a bad knock after several quick startups (i.e. not an initial mechanical interference issue). The engine was [likely] starved of oil for a small # of startups.

QUESTION #3:
Would this possibly ruin the oil pump if it was trying to pump oil into a stopped up circuit, even if not for that long? Could this noise be coming from a blow pump?

I know this is alot of information and questions, but figured some details could relate to some of ya'lls past experiences. Please provide any input, even if it seems trivial. The engine noise is a very loud KNOCK (i'm freaking out about it) but it only happens when the truck is allowed to fire up, so I'm hoping it's not mechanical

Thanks in advanced guys

 

[radman]

You are aware that your engine requires 6 quarts of oil when also changing the filter. I have no way of knowing what the PO did when relocating your oil cooler, but it could possible need more oil to fill the system, explaining why it checked low on the dipstick.

 

[Mbrooks420]

You are aware that your engine requires 6 quarts of oil when also changing the filter. I have no way of knowing what the PO did when relocating your oil cooler, but it could possible need more oil to fill the system, explaining why it checked low on the dipstick.

Yeah....... no. The 5.0 requires 5 quarts, just like the 4.0.

 

[Mbrooks420]

I’d put a mechanical oil pressure gauge on it, and start it momentarily and see what the actual pressure is.

Are you sure the pickup is installed correctly?

 

[Hunter32]

I didn't mess with the oil pickup at all when I changed the oil pan, so it shouldn't be the issue

Regarding the oil pressure-- does anyone know if the oil pressure switch that will ground out (shut the engine off or send a low oil pressure signal) when it doesn't see any pressure is in line between the pump and the filter or is it post-filter? I ask because obviously there was pressure between the pump and the filter when the hoses were installed backwards, but [possibly] no pressure beyond the filter (if it has a 1-way valve)-- and if this switch is located post-filter and was working, then it shouldn't have let the engine fire or I should see a code, even if historic, which I don't

 

[Mbrooks420]

Yeah, that’s not at all right. There’s zero provisions to keep the motor from running based on low oil pressure. Also, the pressure gauge is fake. If it reads s few pounds it sits at normal, it’s not analog.

 

[Turdle]

Harmonic balancer needs to be replaced also. The tone ring controls ignition timing. with the tone ring whack, and knocking noises, I would suggest checking compression on all cyclinders , lay spark plugs in order and post a picture of them please.

 

[Hunter32]

Thanks Turdle-- I was wondering if whatever ended up spinning on the harmonic balancer would actually mess up the tone ring rotation/timing or if it would only mess up the markings on the balancer that I would need if I were to look at timing in the future. Could bad timing cause the knocking im hearing?

 

[koda2000]

Harmonic balancer needs to be replaced also. The tone ring controls ignition timing. with the tone ring whack, and knocking noises, I would suggest checking compression on all cyclinders , lay spark plugs in order and post a picture of them please.

^This.

 

[radman]

Yeah....... no. The 5.0 requires 5 quarts, just like the 4.0.

I am sorry to disagree with Mbrooks but I own since brand new and maintain a 5.0, including oil changes and they require 6 quarts with a filter replacement.

 

[Mbrooks420]

Disagree all you want, it doesn’t make you right. Check your owners manual. “With filter replacement” is irrelevant. Who ever changes JUST the oil? The filter holds 1/4 quart if that, and doesn’t add to the amount of oil needed.

 

[Hunter32]

Hey guys, either way I’m just asking if there is a capacity difference between the two oil pans. I’ve changed the oil in my 5.0 several dozen times in my life, each time with a new oil filter, and could fill it up with 5 quarts, like the manual says.

As for an update on the issues I’m experiencing, I’ve torn back into everything and have the harmonic balancer off once again. I’m currently waiting for the replacement to arrive to throw it on there. I’m going to double check spark plug wiring and keep y’all updated.

Thanks for the help so far

 

[koda2000]

Disagree all you want, it doesn’t make you right. Check your owners manual. “With filter replacement” is irrelevant. Who ever changes JUST the oil? The filter holds 1/4 quart if that, and doesn’t add to the amount of oil needed.

Well I have owned a bunch of 5.0L Gen II Explorers and Mountaineers 2000-2001. They all took 5 qts of oil (with a filter) and that will bring the oil level up to exactly half-way between MIN & MAX on the "correct" dipstick, so I'll have to agree with Mbrooks on this one. I usually add another 1/2 qt to bring them right up to the MAX line. Now, I did own a 4.0L SOHC which appeared to require 6 qts, but that was only because someone had installed an incorrect dip stick in it.

 

[Mbrooks420]

Hey guys, either way I’m just asking if there is a capacity difference between the two oil pans. I’ve changed the oil in my 5.0 several dozen times in my life, each time with a new oil filter, and could fill it up with 5 quarts, like the manual says.

As for an update on the issues I’m experiencing, I’ve torn back into everything and have the harmonic balancer off once again. I’m currently waiting for the replacement to arrive to throw it on there. I’m going to double check spark plug wiring and keep y’all updated.

Thanks for the help so far

If it’s a factory stamped steel pan, the capacity should be 5 quarts. Even 2 quarts low wouldn’t starve the engine of oil, you have a different problem.

It’s also not likely the plugs/wires.

You either have a failed, or misinstalled, oil pump, or you’ve damaged something by hooking it up wrong and starving it of oil.

 

[Hunter32]

I got the new harmonic balancer. The missing tooth in the tone ring and the keyway align exactly the same. The only thing that clocked when I was trying to remove the old harmonic balancer was the isolated cast peice which has the visual timing marks on it, not the cps tone ring. So this would likely not be my issue. I’ll try installing it in the morning and report back

I have a hard time believing 10 seconds of running would cause the noise I’m hearing; I’ll try swapping my ignition coils with my old (but good) ones and see if that helps. I verified the plug wires go to the correct cylinders

 

[Hunter32]

New vs old

 

[Hunter32]

I should also add that the oil pressure gauge does read good pressure, even when turning the engine over with the coils unplugged so the oil pump seems to be working, even somewhat.

The engine does not make any bad noises when it’s turning over with the ignition coils disconnected either

 

[Mbrooks420]

As noted before your oil pressure gauge isn’t real. If it reads around 5 PSI it reads in the normal range. Hook up a real gauge and see what your pressure is. Since the motor was totally dry, and you may have not been pumping ANY oil it might not take that long.

If the motor ran fine before it’d be quite the coincidence to have serious ignition troubles right after working on other major stuff.

 

[Hunter32]

Hey guys, I have some good news: nothing was majorly wrong with the engine! I think it may have been the ignition coils for some reason

So I got the new harmonic balancer but was unable to install if because the location of the taper inside the bore was not the same as my old one, so it wouldn’t install on far enough for me to even get the bolt started. So what I did was clock my old harmonic balancer to relatively the same position as the new one and put it back on there. As I mentioned before, this clocking only affected the visual timing marks, not the tone ring location, so I don’t think this had anything to do with my issue

On top of that, I swapped the coils back to the original ones just for ***** and giggles. Low and behold, it started up and idled fine after that! I was able to test drive it for the first time in weeks.

I will swap out the coils one at a time and see if the problem comes back, just to verify.

I think I would like to swap the balancer out still cause you can see the old one wobbling a little bit. Is anyone familiar with this taper inconsistency that I’m dealing with?