Exhaust Manifold Bolts

[Craigerz]

So I bit the bullet and went with some OBX headers. Got them installed but need some advice. After burning out 3 sets of gaskets on my first 302, I invested in the stage 8 bolts with the washer and clip so they cant back out.

With this being the 4th set of headers I've done on SB Fords I have 3 sets of manifold bolts laying around that came with the other sets of headers. The OBX didn't come with bolts. I really want to use them since I already have them, but I dont want to have to mess with tightening them every 2k miles again.

Do you guys put any kind of lock tight on your exhaust manifold bolts? Red, blue? I would rather them be in there permanently as opposed to having them come lose.

 

[CDW6212R]

Test fit the bolts by hand if you can, without or with the manifolds in. Each hole/position may need a different bolt that is easier to get onto with a tool. I gather with these, it's common to use multiple wrenches and bolt types, just to get each one in and tight.

I'd use a drop of blue loctite on each bolt at the least. The red is stronger and can really make a bolt tough to remove later, I wouldn't use that if possible. Caliper bolts and driveshaft flange bolts get red loctite, those are often very tough to loosen depending on the tool and leverage available.

The gasket material is usually the biggest reason for leaks, toss the cheap kinds. I gather the aluminum versions are getting good reviews now, those were new tech when I last installed headers.

 

[410Fortune]

percys or mr gasket stacked aluminum type gaskets ONLY for me and headers on these engines
I use red loc tite

@CDW6212R nailed it, with the tight turns the header tubes make you may have to use a wrench on some, socket on others, heck on one set I went and found some square headed bolts and we used those...3/8 hardware
I recently installed some TMH headers on the 07 Ranger I am building, I just went through this. On my BII the red loctite and making them pretty darn tight I finally got them to seal at the manifolds.
The ball flanged can also be tough to seal up, I started putting in a Chevy exhaust gasket (soft steel O ring) between the header and the downpipe on the ones that wont seal perfectly

doing this in the truck is oh so fun. It can be done (Ive done 4 sets of TMH now, one OBX), take the tires off, might even help to raise the engine slightly

 

[Craigerz]

Thanks. Blue LT it is. I have all the bolts in and tight, took a combination of 3 different sets plus some of the original manifold bolts. Never had this kind of problem before with the bolts, guess these were just tight in there.

I used the stacked aluminum ones before on my 302 F-150 and they never leaked. I used the single piece copper ones on my F-250 351 and they haven't leaked in about a year and a half. I actually put the copper ones on the Explorer so hopefully they seal good.

I had good luck getting them off. Didn't break one bolt or stud. I soaked them for 2 days with ATF/Acetone, but after I got them removed it didn't look like anything actually even penetrated. The drivers side was easy but the passenger side was a beating. Eventually had to loosen the motor mount.

 

[shucker1]

I'd use a drop of blue loctite on each bolt at the least. The red is stronger and can really make a bolt tough to remove later, I wouldn't use that if possible.

If I am not mistaken high heat breaks down the bond on Locktite.


We use a lot of it in the field and we always have to heat bearings and studs up to melt the Locktite out before we pull them.

Locktite 272 (Red) is good for 450 Deg F.

Locktite 2422 (Ultra Blue) is medium strength is good for 650 Deg F.

 

[CDW6212R]

Interesting, I didn't know the medium strength blue had a much higher melting point, and I thought both were a little higher than that. If that much heat can break the bond, I'd consider the red too, but just not with too much of either. One drop or two is all it should take to fill a couple of threads. I use one on each caliper bolt when I do brakes, and have never had one of those come loose.

 

[shucker1]

Ultra Blue (2242) is the high heat medium strength. You rarely see it in AutoZone etc.

Don, You are correct in saying that the regular blue (242) does indeed have a lower melting point than the Red.

 

[Turdle]

Make sure you are not using a slighty too long bolt which is bottoming out before fully tightening. Some bottom out right at the tight point, and will work loose.
The thought of loctite on those bolts scares me. I'd use anti seize.

 

[CDW6212R]

Make sure you are not using a slighty too long bolt which is bottoming out before fully tightening. Some bottom out right at the tight point, and will work loose.
The thought of loctite on those bolts scares me. I'd use anti seize.

Ditto, that's why I was sure to say one drop is enough. I've used anti-seize several times before, but all of those were for easy to get at and tighten header bolts. I'd worry more about getting these tight enough with those TM/OBX headers.

 

[CDW6212R]

Ultra Blue (2242) is the high heat medium strength. You rarely see it in AutoZone etc.

Don, You are correct in saying that the regular blue (242) does indeed have a lower melting point than the Red.

Cool, I saw the word you used "Ultra" but didn't connect that it was a different product, the 242 I'm familiar with. I've had many of those dry up over time before, I'm using a Loctite "stick" now, it should last longer.

 

[410Fortune]

I love how much they charge for the "stick" yikes. After two of those ran out of the red goo I went back to the bottles of liquid. I waited for the local outfitter store to have a 15% off anything in the bag sale and bought 4 things of loc tite only

I thought printer ink was expensive....sheesh

I use the red loc tite because thats what robert of TMH recommended with his headers....seems to have worked for me on the last 3 sets. Key is to re tighten after 1-2 heat cycles.....fun fun in the truck with a open end wrench

 

[CDW6212R]

That re-tightening is a big key. People rarely do that, I've skipped it once I know for sure. The gaskets(old type I'm used to) all crush a lot to start with, and the high heat makes them more pliable so they'll crush a bit more. If you skip that step, it's not uncommon to develop a leak, or blow out a gasket section. The solid metal gaskets are much better at stopping that.

 

[88n05gt]

Sharing something that I learned from the 460 forum, works for me and will never go back. No gasket, use Ultra Copper Silicone. Some use Ultra Black with success, I chose the High temp stuff.

How I do it,

Clean both surfaces
Use a light coat of silicone, don't go nuts here, it will all squeeze out anyway leaving just enough to seal
Use High temp copper anti seize on the bolt threads, very very light coat
Tighten your header bolts like any other 3/8 bolt and they will not come loose, no gasket to crush
Let it sit for 24 hours to fully cure

Like Turdle mentioned, pay attention to bolt length.
410, I have used this method on my ball and socket connections too, just be mindful of where it is applied so it does not end up in a converter.

Here is a shot of me using just a tad too much, ignore the rusty headers, they are coated and much prettier now.

 

[fast_dave]

@88n05gt

I love me some Ultra Copper RTV!

My Ex is held together with it - from Thermostat Gasket to Valve Cover Gaskets to Diff Covers and now here's yet another use - love it!

 

[Craigerz]

We always called it copper coat... if that’s a term lol and I get the spray can.

The problem isn’t the bolts being too long, I’ve had to cut 4 of them to get them behind the bends of the pipe. I’m not a mechanic and I know they are knock off OBX headers but now I see why no one wants to make them. If you’ve ever done this job you should give yourself a pat on the back. I would but I’m too tired.

 

[Craigerz]

The only ones available were the ones with the external EGR. I plugged mine but I always see post about EGR tubes. Can anyone use this or is it just an ornament?

 

[88n05gt]

Craigerz, you deserve more than a pat on the back, more like a good BBQ with quality brew to wash it down. A "Non Mechanic" that has successfully installed a set of headers in a vehicle like this shows that you have what it takes to git r done. Installing a set of headers on most vehicles is a major PITA so telling anyone to use a skim coat of silicone only adds to the installation frustration. It is way easier to slip a set of gaskets in there and cinch it down.
I cannot comment on the effectiveness of spray copper but I would not suggest it. I would think you want a slightly thicker media to work with. If you ever have to get back into it to fix a exhaust leak, try the silicone. If it starts to set up on you in 15 to 20 min, it will be fine. Whatever method you choose, I wish you luck.
Exhaust leaks.........insert many bad words here!!!

 

[CDW6212R]

The copper spray is for things like timing cover gaskets, WP, thermostat etc, it's great for any normal paper gasket sealing. I have a can I bought last year, it's an old regular product we use.

Has anyone ever worked with equal length headers for a Mustang? Back in the mid 90's it became a hot idea to buy equal length headers for the Fox Mustangs. They were a new idea, and some people bought them. Every single person cussed them, the point was to gain some 5hp or so compared to a common shorty header. Once people saw first hand how much space they took up in the engine bay next to the engine, they knew it wasn't worth the trouble to gain any small amount of power.

Shorty headers in Mustangs can be swapped in 30 minutes, given the old bolts not breaking. Thousands have done those, that's common knowledge. But the equal length shorties, lucky people have never been around those. Anyone installing those will tell you, don't ever, the time and pain is not worth the minor gains. So that idea died for Mustangs 20+ years ago. People don't buy them now and you'll have a hard time finding any being made.

The Explorer is just way worse obviously, you spend half a day or more, figuring out how to do it, and cussing the whole time. That to me is not worth it, to gain maybe 5hp, probably less, than a proper shorty header. A real, good, shorty header would go in/on a 302 in the Explorer in under an hour total, no moving any major items besides the steering shaft(5 minutes).

Sorry for the rant, I just wonder every time I see that ball of snakes, why didn't he make one pair of normal shorties, and test those. He should have made those first, or later if he just had to make those PITA versions. I don't disregard the gains of the TM headers, I just know it'd be far better to end up with 5hp less for shorty headers that anyone could install in an hour or so(after the old ones are out, not the removal time).

 

[Blown]

Good work Craigerz!

I have had good luck with re-tightening after a couple of heat cycles. Though I had one head/header combo that I tightened the front two bolt regularly. I have never used thread locker o header bolts. I thought it would be too hot for it to work.

Wow, Hope the Torque Monsters go on easy enough. I'll have an instruction CD, bolts, gaskets, and high temp red thread locker with them. I also will have the engine torn down to a long block to install them.

I first have to get the old crap off, the bolts at the collectors are likely going to have to be cut off.

I am going to run EGR. I need to modify a stock EGR tube. Craigerz send that EGR tube it to me. I got emissions here and a adding a supercharger. EGR should help keep combustion temps down a bit.

 

[CDW6212R]

Good work Craigerz!

I have had good luck with re-tightening after a couple of heat cycles. Though I had one head/header combo that I tightened the front two bolt regularly. I have never used thread locker o header bolts. I thought it would be too hot for it to work.

Wow, Hope the Torque Monsters go on easy enough. I'll have an instruction CD, bolts, gaskets, and high temp red thread locker with them. I also will have the engine torn down to a long block to install them.

I first have to get the old crap off, the bolts at the collectors are likely going to have to be cut off.

I am going to run EGR. I need to modify a stock EGR tube. Craigerz send that EGR tube it to me. I got emissions here and a adding a supercharger. EGR should help keep combustion temps down a bit.

There are various EGR tubes, the stock one has a flexible portion that makes them easier to install. But that section is also more fragile, leaks happen easier as you've read probably.

I would prefer that kind you get with the headers, the solid piping is easy to cut and add a section to if it needs to be longer. Different intakes and manifolds affect the length that is needed.