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2014 Ford Explorer Factory HID vs Halogen housing

Discussion in 'Performance Lighting' started by CalifLove, October 17, 2013.

^^Searches ExplorerForum.com^^





  1. CalifLove

    CalifLove Active Member

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    Hey guys,

    I couldn't find an exact answer to this question - please forgive me if i searched incorrectly and this has been answered already.

    Is there any difference in the factory headlight housings between HID and non-HID optioned explorers? So far as I can tell looking at parts on Fords part website, it seems to be the same BUT I don't have access to a service manual yet to be sure. Seems like it would be cheaper for Ford to make a 1 size solution but maybe its not technically possible?
     
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  3. Anime

    Anime EF YEAH!! Elite Explorer

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    Not technically possible.

    Halogen bulbs use a filament, which is much smaller than the arc of an HID bulb. The reflectors and lamp design are totally different.

    Same reason it's illegal and unsafe to use those "HID" kits to stick "HID" bulbs in halogen headlamps - the lamps made for halogen bulbs will not output the light on the road, they just glare it everywhere, including into the eyes of the drivers of oncoming vehicles.

    If you want HID, you need to get the entire HID setup - lamps, bulbs, etc.

    Otherwise, just get some high-output halogen bulbs.
     
  4. CalifLove

    CalifLove Active Member

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    Thanks for the reply.

    I'm not really asking about the difference between HID and non HID light sources, I get the specifics on the technological differences, I am speaking in regards to the housing itself for the Explorer.

    At a high level however, I tend to disagree with your assertion that there is a great difference in automotive applications so far as headlight design - HID VS halogen. (keep in mind this is my opinion and not based on any empirical data at all - ) At the end of the day, no matter the technology we have a lamp that sits in a housing and within that lamp, light is produced of a certain color temp and brightness (to design spec) and projects out in an omni directional pattern (for the most part). What happens to that light is then up to reflectors and lensing design which is what brought me to question IF Ford had different parts for different setups. I tend to think reflectors would be multi purpose but I do concede that there is the possibility of different coatings or materials that could be applied to the lensing or reflector material to achieve certain quality of light characteristics a given manufacture is looking for BUT thus far, I cannot find any reason to think that Ford, in it's application of HID technology to the Explorer (and other vehicles) has done so based on parts listings

    From Fordparts website I find that all headlight assemblies have part # 13008 associated with them. There are varying parts connected to that headlight assembly part # to account for HID vs halogen lamps(different wiring harnesses/cables, ballast, etc but nothing in regard to interior housings, reflectors or lensing - which leads me to think that there is no difference on the OEM side between lighting setups. Was curious to find if anyone else with experience could confirm that here.

    Maybe the only way for me to be 100% sure is to find someone local with a limited and take apart the assembly and compare to mine.. any Bay Area (Ca) folks up for that? :)

    As for glare caused by HID light sources compared to halogen, I suppose that is debatable but not really in the realm of my question.
     
  5. Anime

    Anime EF YEAH!! Elite Explorer

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    The housings for HID and halogen headlamps are completely different.

    You can disagree, but I'm not asserting anything, it's just a scientific fact.

    The optical requirements for a reflector for use with a point source like a halogen filament are different from those of an electric arc because of the size of the source.


    The reason I mentioned that they were different because of the light sources (halogen filament vs. HID arc) is to tell you WHY they are different.

    If you call up a Ford Dealer and ask the parts department to look up the part number for the headlamp assemblies, they will ask you whether it's for a halogen or HID equipped vehicle. That alone will tell you they are different, but you can ask for the part numbers to compare and be sure.

    I mentioned the glare so you wouldn't try something stupid like buying one of those "HID" kits and sticking HID bulbs in the halogen housings.
     
  6. JimiJak

    JimiJak Member

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    I'm going to have to disagree. I'm pretty sure CalifLove was trying to do his homework on this one and you came out of left field with a generalized answer that did not give him accurate information.

    On the 5th Gen Explorers, the headlamp assembly is fitted with a projector housing...not a reflector housing regardless of whether it was equipped with Halogen or HID bulbs new.
    The EX, XLT, and Sport all came stock with Halogen bulbs and the Limited had an option of HID bulbs.
    To be clear, there is nothing unsafe about retrofitting HID bulbs to a correctly aimed halogen projector housing because the housings are fitted with the proper shielding to cut off the light from blinding other drivers. The unsafe applications you're speaking of is when people fit HID kits to a reflector housing and throw all of the extra light all over the place rather than focusing it on the road.

    So...the real question here is; Is the projector housing used in the 5th gens the same for the stock halogens as it is for the stock HIDs. I agree with CalifLove, as best I can tell from Ford's website it would appear the projector housing itself is the same part number for the HID and Halogen options.
    This warrants a call to my Ford Parts mgr tomorrow to find out for sure.

    I do know that generally speaking the HID projectors typically have a different specific shape to the dish/lens that spreads the light out evenly vs. focusing it in one spot like halogens do.
     
  7. Anime

    Anime EF YEAH!! Elite Explorer

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    You can disagree, but I stand by my reply.

    This just simply isn't true. While there may be LESS glare in a projector housing due to the shielding, there is STILL glare inherent from using an HID (arc) in a housing and lens designed for a halogen (filament) source.

    I realize that the people sticking HID bulbs in projectors claim that there is so much less glare by showing images of the headlamp beams on garage doors and walls, but the glare simply doesn't show up that way. try being a vehicle heading towards the headlamps at night before just making assumptions about whether there is or isn't glare.


    I'll be rather surprised if Ford uses the same projector housing with the same internals and same reflectors and same lens for a halogen bulb as it does for an HID one. If this were the case, all that would be necessary to upgrade to the HID system would be the HID bulbs and harness/ballasts. My guess is the headlamp assemblies themselves may use the same or similar part numbers, but that the projector is very different for the halogen and HID options.

    Now you're making more sense. The opposite is actually true though, since halogen bulbs use a filament (point) source, the lens spreads the light out evenly, while the arc source in an HID bulb is quite a bit longer, and so needs to be focused well to direct the light where it's needed.
     
    Last edited: February 16, 2014
  8. JimiJak

    JimiJak Member

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    Ahhhhh...it's starting to get clearer now. I see what you were saying in your replies to CalifLove. Your reply was vague enough that it looked like you were talking about reflector housings. It makes more sense the second time around.

    We agree, the projector housings are typically different based on bulb type. And yes, a halogen projector with an HID bulb retrofit kit in it will have more glare than a mated HID lamp/bulb set. As far as it being "something stupid" to retro fit and make the proper adjustments, I wouldn't say it's dumb or dangerous, just a compromise in lighting definition IMO. I have a retrofit kit in an '04 Mazda 6 at the moment and have been 'high-beamed' zero times (not that this is definitive...just an indicator of oncoming driver discomfort/excessive glare).

    I would be surprised if Ford used the same identical lamp set up in all Sports halogen or HID also...but that doesn't mean they didn't do it. I got tied up on a different project today and didn't have a chance to phone my dealership, but I'm still very interested to know if the Sport has the same internals as a Limited with stock HID lighting (Stage 4??). I know what you mean as far as the garage door pics you mentioned, but you have to admit the post retrofit HID pics on this forum do look better than is typical.
     
  9. Anime

    Anime EF YEAH!! Elite Explorer

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    I base my comments about it being "something stupid" to do based on the vehicle lighting requirements of the federal and state governments. Being it's still against the law to "retrofit" HID bulbs into anything, it's a risk to do so. If you don't know what you're doing, that glare that mysteriously doesn't show up on the wall or garage door might blind a driver and cause a fatal collision...maybe even with your vehicle. Or it might just blind a police officer while driving, and cause them to turn around and pull you over for having poorly aimed headlights...and lead to them doing a more thorough inspection and finding out WHY the headlights are producing glare even though they appear to be aimed correctly.

    It's true that most cops don't know the specifics about lighting laws, even those in their own state or locality, let alone the laws about something like HID or retrofitting. But there's still a chance that the cop you may encounter one day is a person who's well aware of the laws and makes a point of impounding vehicles and sending the owner to jail for operating it on public roads with illegal lighting modifications for endangering the safety of other motorists.

    I'm all for people who know what they're doing to modify and improve the lighting on their vehicle, but when there's any question, I urge them to err on the side of safety and caution, and learn more before moving forward. Better to go slow and learn and do it right than do something that's illegal and dangerous, and have the worst-case scenario actually happen.


    The laws of physics and optics don't bend for Ford, or anyone else.

    Without using modified bulbs that mimic the source (including location, intensity, etc.) the lamp is designed for, one won't work correctly with the housings, reflectors, and lenses designed for the other.

    So, it's definitely possible to use HID bulbs in halogen housings and get a good result, or to use halogen bulbs in HID housings and get a good result, but only by getting whatever you're using to mimic what it's replacing.

    Since these are using off-the shelf bulbs as you'd expect, and the designers of the 9005 bulb and the D3S bulb didn't collaborate to make one mimic the other, you can be fairly certain they aren't directly swappable.

    Is it possible Ford did something screwy to just approximate the location of the filament of the 9005 bulb in the projector and called it "close enough" with some tuning of the shield - or that they actually stuck the 9005 bulb in an HID housing and just made the socket fit so it gave the best performance they could get from it?

    Sure, it's possible, but given the past history of bad publicity for automakers when cost-cutting measures go wrong, Ford and the Explorer in particular, I doubt Ford would dare to do something like that.

    Besides, if this were the case, you wouldn't need to specify whether it was for halogen or HID when buying a new headlamp assembly. Even if the part number is the same, there might be another code or suffix that indicates the type of source it's designed for - although having such a minor difference would seem kind of unsafe in case someone gets the wrong part and would be using the wrong bulb type, there's little risk of the wrong bulb being used since the bases are different.
     
    Last edited: February 16, 2014
  10. baddceo

    baddceo Member

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    The housings and parts are the same, in fact the Halogen housing will actually support the Xenarc Parts that make up the HID package. The reason they ask for the specifics up front is for the mounting brackets and the wiring locations. The glass lens is the same part number as well as all of the other supporting bulbs. The only difference if you look at the parts diagram is the Xenarc HID bulb, it's connection type, the HID bracket that holds the bulb in place and the wire harness that feeds through the bottom of the housing into the ballast which actually attaches to the bottom of the support bracket that the headlight assembly attaches to and then to the frame/fendor of the car. If you look on the bottom of the headlight assembly on your vehicle or any number of pictures of the HID housing unit on Ebay and compare them to the halogen assembly, there is no difference other than the presence of the ballast.

    That to me means that while an after market HID kit might not be the most suitable, it certainly is a viable option for the price conscious consumer. Or you could buy a LH/RH HID assembly from Ebay for $200/$600 a corner. It is plug and play...

    On a side note, for all of those users who are cutting a little hole in the rubber cover, feeding the wire through the bottom of the assembly might be a better option for an OEM look.
     
  11. CalifLove

    CalifLove Active Member

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    These two statements directly contradict each other. First, your against modding lights at all because its illegal, then your all for it if it's safe.. Based on your information alone which doesn't make a ton of sense, one would gather that it's outright stupid & illegal to convert to HID lighting in this particular vehicle - and possibly all vehicles. When I started in this forum I was fine with your opinion as I didn't know it to be false though I had my doubts. Now, I am 100% certain you are incorrect though from your tone I doubt you will ever change your mind on this issue.

    No one said that they did, simply that someone was smart enough (or cheap enough, pending how you look at it) to figure out a way to use 1 housing to work with multiple types of light sources. It really is simpler than you lead it on to be...

    This is incorrect information.

    Now, I suspect there is no way Anime will ever believe this as he has attached the idea from the get go and all but called me an idiot but that is what it is. Unfortunately, I can offer nothing to prove this other than word of my mouth (or type as it were) BUT I can say I am now certain the head light assembles from a hardware standpoint (Back black housing, clear front lens cover, glass focusing lens, metal mechanical cutoff assembly, back reflector, turn signal etc) are all the same from factory HID to non-HID setups.

    Here is where my personal factual information stops and theory begins - the reasoning seems simple enough to me, as I stated in my thinking - the source of the light shouldn't really matter more so than how the light is directed from its source. In the case of HID lamps in our application compared to non HID's the light is "thrown" out from the source in pretty much an omni pattern (from the perspective of looking directly into the light source as it would be installed. Some of that light travels forward, though most of it is "captured" by the reflector and directed to the lens where it is further fix focused to whatever specs Ford setup presenting the lighting pattern we all get regardless of lamp. I suspect this led to the design of the mechanical cutoff vs some other means of controlling low/hi or separate lamps all together.

    Going back to the assembly, I came to these conclusions with a friend of mine who owns a limited with factory HID. I took my actual housing apart to do "angel eyes" and LED strips along the outside edge (hope the glare gods don't kill me) - we observed that there were no differences between his assembly and mine. All markings, screw placements, attachment points etc were identical across models. True, there are additional pieces that come with a HID model but those are bolt on pieces, not intrinsic to the actual housing.

    So with that, the question is answered for me. Maybe that helps the rest of you find YOUR answer. I think people who make the change HID will do it for their own reasons rather than what they read here. I'll say, the difference is night and day. More light down on the road. The pattern isn't all that great compared to Audi head lights but its better than stock non-hid for sure as far as visibility.

    I can say that I've driven in front of my explorer in another car at night to try to observe how what it looks like in the rear view mirror and observed no more annoyance than I may get from any other car with HIDS factory or not. Also have driven on-coming from another vehicle to get other side perspective - same difference, looks like any other vehicle with HID lighting. Further, I had my mom drive down a road on-coming to me at night and see what she thought - she didn't complain either. To date, I have not had any high beam flashes or visibly pissed off people oncoming or behind so I fairly comfortable in saying I'm not hurting anyone with my particular setup. I have 35w setup, the 55+w systems may be a different animal completely. I suspect with that hard cutoff on low though the only difference is a TON of wasted light and brighter ground light which may be a good thing. If anyone has ventured to 55w setups I'd love to hear any words good or bad.

    Phew, hope that helps someone...take care guys.

    P.S., for me, the argument over whether or not the headlight assemblies between HID and non HID for the late model Ford Explorers are the same is over, however it's a whole different discussion on whether or not that decision to make a 1-size-fits-all solution was an appropriate choice for Ford to make for its product. If anyone has any thoughts or issues with the lighting either way, that again, is a whole different topic that should be talked about and debated and maybe even gather significant traction to see change made...
     
  12. JimiJak

    JimiJak Member

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    I thought you got lost! lol

    Thanks for revisiting this thread! :D

    I really appreciate the info you've found by hands on comparison. That's really good to know. I spoke with ford parts finally, but they really only have a part number for the entire assembly, since this is how they replace it if anything is broke. The housings themselves, and their respective part numbers, are more of a factory thing apparently.

    I'm interested to hear 35w vs 55w retrofitting testimony also if anyone has some pics or links to share.

    BTW CalifLove; any pics of the finished product you mentioned below??

     
  13. Anime

    Anime EF YEAH!! Elite Explorer

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    They don't contradict each other at all.

    It's still a fact that it's illegal in all 50 states (for on-road use, at least) to put HID bulbs in a halogen housing, or to purchase and use an aftermarket "retrofit" kit to try and make HID work with your vehicle that only came with halogen lights. This is the doman of ricers and people who are under the delusion that other people are so concerned about the color of their vehicle's headlights, but the blue "superwhite" halogen bulbs aren't good enough, and that they should spend hundreds of dollars to do whatever it takes to throw some HID lamps on their vehicle, regardless of how they actually function, and whether or not they put out enough light in front of the vehicle to see, and whether or not they blind other drivers.

    What is NOT illegal is using FACTORY housings and assemblies for HID lamps, and sticking those on a vehicle that only has halogen lamps. This is why it's not illegal to swap factory halogen housings for factory HID housings. These lamps and their assemblies comply with lighting laws and their performance is much better than the aftermarket kits.

    I also recognize that there ARE plenty of bright individuals out there who go to the trouble of converting to HID not because they care what other people think about their vehicle's headlights, but they just want real HID lamps on their vehicle. These people go to great lengths to make sure that the end result is MORE light on the road, and NO glare into the eyes of oncoming traffic. More often than not, such setups are BETTER than what the vehicle came with from the factory.


    You ignored what I typed AFTER that. Sure, it's possible to do (and probably with a poor result), but it would make no sense for Ford to do something like that, nor is there any evidence that this is the case. Were it so, it'd be a simple matter of sticking one bulb or the other in the lamp with the required adapter and it'd work. This clearly isn't the case, even just based on the sources of the light. You can stick two different types of bulbs with two different characteristics in the same lamp but you won't get the same resulting beam. They will both throw out light, sure, but it won't be well aimed, focused, intense light on the road where it is needed. This is why you don't stick HID bulbs in halogen housings, or use bulbs not designed for the housing.


    So, you have no proof, but you're certain HOW? Based on looks? Part numbers? You're saying you can determine all the angles and curvatures are the exact same just by visual information alone? You should apply at NASA immediately.

    This isn't proof of anything other than what people have known for a long time - that you can be certain of something that isn't true, especially without all or any the facts necessary to support it.


    "Personal factual information". That's a good one.

    The source DOES matter. While, as I described in my previous post, it's certainly possible to put one bulb in another housing, the result won't be what you seem to imagine.


    So because they look the same to you, and have everything placed the same so that both assemblies fit the same vehicle (exactly as they were designed to be for a vehicle that came with two different headlamp options), they are the same - and the HID model comes with additional pieces you personally determine are not intrinsic.



    You can believe whatever you want, that doesn't make it true.

    Don't try to start arguments and attack me on the forum as if I'm somehow promoting physics and optics or vehicle lighting laws as my personal beliefs.

    If you want to contribute to the knowledge base and learn about your vehicle's lighting, and the differences in the headlamps, that's great, but do so in an appropriate manner.
     
  14. CalifLove

    CalifLove Active Member

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    NO problem JimiJak - would like to have had side by side pix of the diff housings but timing didn't work out to do that.

    As for pix of my install - if your on FB, this link should work for you -
    http://www.facebook.com/CalifLove

    If not, I'll try to upload to my website shortly.




    I'm not sure why I bother but whatever - the one thing I can prove is the part #'s are the same - you can call your local dealer to verify that or look @ fords parts website yourself. The Housing part # is the same, and then there are a bunch of additional parts for various pieces associated with HID.

    So far,you're the only one arguing that the parts are different though you yourself have offered no proof or any other indication of why you think that other than "It being stupid". You criticize me (and others) for actually taking the time to try to determine first hand if the parts are the same but again, from what I can tell have offered no first hand knowledge of diving hands on yourself. To top it off, you come off as a complete jerk in doing so if I do say so but maybe that's just my interpretation.
     
  15. Anime

    Anime EF YEAH!! Elite Explorer

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    I'm not arguing at all, I'm merely standing by what I stated when you started this thread asking if it were technically possible - and you've been given clear answers.

    The onus isn't on me to offer proof that they are different, though I have provided some common sense ways that would indicate they would need to be for two different light sources. You're the one stating that they are the same based only on the part numbers for the complete assembly, even though it was stated by others that the actual projector inside is what is different, or on your personal visual inspection and a misunderstanding of how optics works.

    That you need to resort to name calling makes it pretty evident you just want others to agree with you for personal reasons.

    Why not just read up about optics, projector lamps, halogen bulbs, HID lamps, and get an understanding of the subject matter rather than lashing out in anger that one particular person isn't convinced based on what you say?
     
  16. JimiJak

    JimiJak Member

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    No one is disputing what you are saying that halogen and HID projectors are not the same; but that topic has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.

    The question here is; Did ford use the same projector housing for both models?
    Regardless of whether or not that would be a good idea, or how compromised the resulting optical output would be...doesn't mean they didn't do it. I mean Ford's complete understanding of projectors is questionable anyway, just look at how they designed the explorer housing. The projector on all models is recessed way too far into the chrome housing causing a constricted beam pattern compared to what would have been technically achievable with the hardware provided. At some point in time Ford realized how narrow the light source was and added some dumb little reflectors medial to the projector to help spread light. If they had a better idea of the hardware they were using they would have just made the appropriate adjustments to the lens shroud.

    IF the lamp assembly is the same for all units, obviously they would have had to have used the HID capable housing. I have read countless studies about the effects of retrofitting HID bulbs into halogen projectors, but I couldn't tell you what happens when you do the opposite. I don't think I've ever heard/seen anyone try it. Maybe the halogen projection isn't affected much. I couldn't say. My guess would be that it wouldn't be very cost effective. But these trucks aren't exactly cheap.

    Maybe Crystal can chime in on this one and get us an official answer.
     
  17. Anime

    Anime EF YEAH!! Elite Explorer

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    That has everything to do with this thread, as the difference between the two is what I'm trying to get across as a fundamental factor in why Ford would not do something like use the same projector for two different bulbs.

    That seems to be part of the problem here - some of the fundamentals are being intentionally ignored, in hopes that somehow that stuff doesn't apply to the projectors on the Explorer for some reason.


    And the answer I gave was: it's highly unlikely. So unlikely that it's really close to a no.


    This might make sense on an individual level, but when it comes to an automotive company, it doesn't work that way. After the fiasco with the Firestone tires, Ford and the Explorer name are still a joke when it comes to bad decisions and PR disasters. I seriously doubt Ford would take a chance on the completely redesigned Explorer by trying to cut corners and stick halogen bulbs in an HID projector.

    While automotive companies still do make absurd decisions in the name of cost savings, they rarely, if ever, do it on basic systems that would even slightly risk driver safety. Headlamps are one of those basic systems.

    If Ford really did cut corners by sticking halogen bulbs in projectors that were made for HID bulbs, they would be opening themselves up to legal liability.

    Besides, it probably would have saved Ford way more money to have a regular aluminum vapor-coated reflector housing made for the halogen bulb equipped base models.


    You can do the math yourself and guess. The D3S bulb puts out about ~3000 lumens at 35 Watts. The 9005 bulb puts out about ~1700 lumens at 65 Watts. Even if you assume that everything else is perfect (and it isn't), that both sources are in the perfect spot to maximize the efficiency of the lens, the resulting output is over 1/3 less light in a projector designed for 1/3 more- and that's just the overall output, NOT how much less light is actually getting on the road in front of the vehicle. Taken with all the other imperfections and compromises of using a bulb in a projector not made for it, you could easily assume the resulting output to be 50% less or worse. Even assuming that the resulting output still somehow met the minimum federal lighting requirements, do you really think a major automotive company would do such a thing on its newly redesigned, premium $30,000 SUV?
     
  18. JimiJak

    JimiJak Member

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    Why bother with us?

    I honestly don't know why you bother coming back to this thread.

    Fundamentals...yep, check...got it. Neat. Moving on.

    Why are we ignoring what you keep repeating? Oh wait...you answer your own question right here:

    Because even you...with all of your preaching, can't really say FOR SURE Ford didn't use the same projectors.

    I wouldn't be AT ALL surprised to find out that the projectors are different. But it's been talked about enough by enough different people with inconclusive data to make me curious to what the official answer is. I honestly don't see what's so wrong about wanting to find a definitive answer. Just taking a stab at it because it makes sense and deciding; "because that would have been the smart thing to do, it must be what was done" doesn't work for me.

    Ummmm...no. I don't want to guess.

    Your stab at the math here is all fine and good...and may be spot on for all I know; I didn't fact check your numbers. Again, your math tells us it's an obviously flawed idea from the start...but what it doesn't tell us is whether or not it was actually done. You say yourself, even after your calculations that you have no idea whether that would meet the Federal Lighting Requirements or not.

    Man, I certainly hope not...but like I've been told; hope in one hand and crap in the other and see which one fills up first.


    I can't speak for everyone on this forum but as for myself; I am not interested in your theory or speculation...and I am especially not interested in your condescension. I am not ignoring physics, reason, or the common knowledge you keep spewing at me like this is my first rodeo. I am not young or naive and I understand how the automotive industry works. I am a simple man in seek of knowledge and it's my quest for knowledge that has taught me to keep asking questions to get beyond the speculation and down to the facts.
    Crystal is looking into this for me and those who are interested.

    Anime; I'll make a deal with you.
    If you truly think I'm so far off base that I must have an extra 21st chromosome, then please delete this thread and do not read Crystal's response since I must be so far off base there's no reasoning with me. However, if you don't delete this thread because you want to read Crystal's response, then I think you owe us at least a little more respect, since that shows you're curious too...just like the rest of us.
     
    Last edited: February 24, 2014
  19. Anime

    Anime EF YEAH!! Elite Explorer

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    Because you keep replying and quoting me.


    I also can't say FOR SURE that gravity is what keeps things held down on the planet. Requiring an unmeetable standard just shows how poor an argument is.

    What I'm saying is, it's WAY WAY WAY more likely that the projectors are not the same than that they are. That's about as far as I can go without being the person who designed them or made the decision to do what you're assuming happened.

    ANYthing is possible. No one can disprove something completely, especially if someone doesn't want to accept facts that disprove it.


    All the stuff you've typed seems to indicate the opposite, that you're convinced the projectors are the same - and angry that I won't agree.

    If you were merely curious in discovering the actual answer, I'd think you'd consider all the stuff I've mentioned. You only seem to be interested in ignoring everything that says they aren't the same and waiting for proof that they are to present itself.


    You're ignoring my point there. It's unlikely Ford would do something like implement a lighting system that only barely meets the Federal requirements. Not just because it would be a bad idea from the start, but bulbs and lenses and wires degrade over time and cause a drop in efficiency and output, so a lamp that puts out the minimum when it's new would fall below it with age.

    Again, you need to think in terms of legal liability. If Ford did such a thing and someone had a fatal collision at night, and it was determined that it was because the headlamp output was so poor after a few years, and that it was because Ford cheaped out and stuck halogen bulbs in an HID projector, that made for really poor output, Ford is going to be on the hook for a lot of lawsuits, a recall, and have another PR nightmare.

    Is it possible Ford would do this? Yes. Is it likely Ford would risk it? No.



    Then why the heck are you in this thread discussing this theory and speculation and constantly replying? You are ignoring physics, reason, common sense, and a lot of other things. I'm not being condescending, you just seem to be angry I won't blindly agree with something that is highly unlikely to be true.

    It doesn't seem to be the case that you're interested in knowledge. You seem to have reached a conclusion and are working backwards from that.

    If you were interested in knowledge, you'd take into consideration all the stuff I've typed and suggested and combine that with all the other facts and knowledge so far to get closer to an answer. You only seem to be interested in arguing about how your conclusion must be right and therefore I must somehow be wrong.



    I don't have the option to delete threads, but even if I did, I don't think this one has gone completely bad. If I did, I'd refer it to the higher powers that be and let them make a decision on what to do.

    If you're getting a response from Crystal about this then why not just rely on that instead of starting arguments with me?
     
  20. JimiJak

    JimiJak Member

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    Simply put, because it frustrates me that you've made up your mind on a definitive answer enough to tell me I'm wrong, when you say yourself you don't know and can only speculate.
    ...plus it is kind of entertaining. ;)

    I do not have the answers. All I have at this point is my reason and my speculation, just like you. I have absolutely no idea which lamps Ford put in any of the models over any of the years, or what they're currently using. But I would like to know. Is it gravity that holds us to the Earth? Yes...Yes it is. Now that IS a scientific fact. Are the HID / Halogen projectors different? Yes they are...another scientific fact. Did Ford put different lamps in the HID package? I don't know...no one here does; but there is an answer. I originally clicked CalifLove 's thread to potentially read the answer, but then got caught up in the discussion which has lead me to reach out to Crystal. At this point I'm just biding my time waiting for a factual response from Ford while I banter with you. I'll give you this: all of the cards are in your favor. All of the theory, practicality, liability, rationale, and math all point to the lamps being different, just like every other car manufacturer ever having used different lamps.

    Below are just a few of the things I've found odd about Ford headlamp options and what has piqued my interest into wanting to dig deeper:

    1. The Ford Explorer Limited w stock HID headlamp upgrade option, sucks. They honestly look like a halogen to HID retrofit job. They have hotspots, the beam pattern is narrow, uneven, and the cuttoffs are sloppy. My biggest unanswered question is; "Why aren't they better?"

    Below is a pic of a Ford Explorer Limited w Stock HIDs next to a Stock Acura MDX HID setup. The MDX doesn't use cutting edge projectors either, but by comparison you can still see a world of difference and I don't even have to tell you which one is which.
    Granted, this is just another "garage door test" and doesn't account for glare etc...but it does give an idea of the beam pattern and light output on the road from the driver's perspective.
    I would be hard pressed to be able to tell the difference between an Explorer with stock HID bulbs vs retrofit HID bulbs via beam pattern alone, and they should be two completely different animals all around.
    [​IMG]

    2. Nobody seems to know the factual answer. It's been brought up and talked about hundreds of times on this forum alone, and yet...nobody seems to be able to provide a definitive answer.

    3. Oddly specific similarities upon visual inspection. Sure, I understand that there's no way to tell the curvature of the dish or lens or infinite other minute calculations that could be different on the internals, but I've found it at least interesting that all the stampings and markings on the outside are identical. As best I can tell the only place any numbers are different from what's been found so far is the engraving on the outside of the headlamp assembly lens that reads which bulb it takes, but that doesn't prove anything either.

    Again, I would really think they would be different...but wouldn't it be something if they weren't? Why not get to the bottom of it?
    I am eager and terribly curious to hear back from Crystal to put all of this conjecture to rest.
     
  21. FordService

    FordService Official Ford Rep

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    Hi gang,

    I checked with my technical adviser on this issue; he states that the housings are different. They may look similar from the outside, but most of the differences are internal.

    Crystal
     

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