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5.0 tuning

Discussion in 'Computers, Chips & Tuning' started by carlover, August 12, 2015.

^^Searches ExplorerForum.com^^





  1. decipha

    decipha Active Member

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    no it is not worthwhile for me to invest in SCT, and SCT is limited on support, what i mean by that is you can only modify what they give you access to, you cannot go in there and write your own code to custom modify the ecu to do things henry never intended it to do, like control nitrous for example

    as stated the quarterhorse is only a fraction of the cost of an xcal and it can log 100x faster than an xcal, in fact you can log so fast with the quarterhorse that its not uncommon to have several rows of data with the exact same value because your logging faster than the engine is spinning so the ecu isn't updating background info as quickly as you can read it

    with an xcal you can log about 6 frames a second, with the quarterhorse i can log over 100 if you wish, typically 20 is common since theres no advantage to going any faster than that

    carlover... ship me your ecu, i'll reflash it and ship it back, shoot me a PM

    I'm willing to work on creating a def file for the explorers if there's enough interest in it

    I have a couple other endeavors taking precedence at the current time but it wouldn't take long at all to get a majority of it figured out, enough to start custom tuning at least

    before going through all that though i'm willing to bet the 99-01 explorer ecu's are more than likely very similar if not identical to the rest of fords 99-04 eec-v ecu's, most people don't know it but the 99-04 mustang v6/v8/cobra f-150, harley davidson, lightning, crown vic grand marquis marauder navigator expedition continental blackwood, etc.. all have the exact same hardware 'class' which means my free custom base tunes on my website will work on any of those ecu's since they can all run the same tune no problem

    If anyone needs something now though thats not a problem just give me a shout
     
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  3. 4pointslow

    4pointslow Explorer Torture Tester Elite Explorer

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    Ecu

    Thanks for the reply,
    The capabilities of faster data logging really turn my interest to the 1/4 horse.

    What are your thoughts on the battery that is on the circuit board as Dono mentioned?
    My first thought was that I wished they had a socket that the battery would sit in, then you could just replace it when it went bad, kind of like a cmos or bios battery on a home computer's motherboard. I am pretty good at de-soldering and removing parts from circuit boards, are the batteries available for us to install on our own if we felt up to it?
    I guess the alternative would be to order a second 1/4 horse, after all if a SCT device (X3, X4 etc) fails we would be left in the same situation or worse and would have to send it back to SCT or get another one.

    If someone went from a 99 Explorer to a 99 F150 ECU would the vehicle still identify as an Explorer for state inspection purposes? (correct Vin etc)
    What about a 98 Explorer 4.0 SOHC V6?

    To go to another ECU with more features would be desirable for many reasons, one reason might even be having the ECU control an electric fan when the vehicle came with a belt driven one.
     
  4. decipha

    decipha Active Member

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    the dreaded dead battery qh epidemic was due to a batch of incorrectly spec'd resistors on the early quarterhorses, this has been identified and fixed and has not been an issue in years. Moates even took it a step farther and the newest quarterhorses also have a replaceable coin cell watch battery (as the masses requested) so its really a non issue.

    the emissions scanner will read your correct vehicle no problem

    theres no issue swapping ecu's and with MY free custom tuning software you can type in any VIN number you wish, its there in the software for you to do as you please with it.

    even if your vehicle did not come factory equipped with an electric fan there is a possibility that the electric fan will function when enabled in the tune and with the relay trigger wired up to the ecu's fan pin, I've done it numerous times

    the 98 explorer ecu is a tad different, those came equipped with a 5r55 5spd automatic, so those strats would have to be broken out on their own
     
  5. CDW6212R

    CDW6212R Hauls the mail. Elite Explorer

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    Interesting thread about tuning, and Henson Performance going away. I was planning for James to work on four vehicles for me. I've got some more research to do to find the best PCM's still, and how to reprogram them.

    Welcome decipha, I look forward to learning from you and maybe more. Night,
     
  6. decipha

    decipha Active Member

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    there is no 'best' ecu, they are all basically the same

    sucks to hear about henson sounds like he had a good thing going on here
     
  7. CDW6212R

    CDW6212R Hauls the mail. Elite Explorer

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    Two of my projects will be non Explorers, a 91 Lincoln and a 73 Ranchero. I bought two 1997 Explorer PCM's, but there is a change in 97 that makes the early one 96-97.5, and the other is the unique but similar to the 98. Ford changed some things between those, like the later one uses a better trans range sensor(DTRS), while the early one still has to have the analog version of that range sensor. I'm okay with using which ever DTRS the computer requires.

    I asked James if he cared which PCM of those two I used, and he didn't see any real concern besides that range sensor deal. The EGR is different in each also, and I don't plan to use an EGR for either car. It's just minor stuff, but I do have to use the proper matching wiring harnesses, those can't be mixed as others have learned the hard way. I have one Explorer harness so far, and I think it's the early 1997(exact same as 96).
     
  8. decipha

    decipha Active Member

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    can you elaborate on the wiring harness changes? if your referring to the body harness then yes that varies but most all 96-04 EEC-V fords have a similar if not the same ecu pin out

    was there any reason why you didn't go with a 99-04 ecu? that would allow you to go coil on plug
     
  9. vroomzoomboom

    vroomzoomboom Elite Canuck STOCK SUCKS! Elite Explorer

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    so correct me if i am not wrong (that and i want to post this for anyone else looking) the board you will need is this

    http://www.moates.net/quarterhorse-for-fords-p-199.html?cPath=63

    along with a pcm from 99-04 mustang, f150, crown vic that had a v8 and a auto trans (if you have a auto trans in your explorer, some guys with v8's have swapped to a 5 spd standard). it wont matter what year of second gen explorer you have (96-01) v8, (97-01 or to 03 sport, or 01-04 sport trac) v6 sohc. then from there you can tune? i remember you mentioning something about the cam sensors on earlier v8's (96-98) but cant remember what it was.
    yes i am thinking very hard about this. there is a few issues i need to iron out with my truck before i can say for sure it will be ready for tuning.
     
  10. TestPoint

    TestPoint Active Member

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  11. decipha

    decipha Active Member

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    vroomvroomzoomboom... yes with the QH you can tune most all the 99-04 EEC-V ecu's as its all broken out and free, most likely you can reprogram the explorer ecu as well but I have yet to do it to be certain, if it works for all other 99-04 fords it stands a reason it should work for the 99-01 V8 explorer ecu's too but thats just speculation, you can use an auto trans ecu with a 5spd no problem but you can't use a 5spd ecu on an auto since it lacks the hardware to control the solenoids, I always recommend getting an auto trans ecu regardless, better to have more than less and you can use the TOT input as a second IAT2 input to retard/advance ignition timing (same as an 03/04 cobra) if you have a turbo/supercharger so you have more safety and can also compare inlet and outlet temps too which is pretty cool and good info to know

    the 2002+ explorer's such as the 4.0L v6 have a CANBUS ecu which doesn't have a J3 port to physically plug the QH into so on those you cannot use a QH on

    most of the 99-04 ecu's are setup for a variable reluctance VR cam sensor which is a two wire sensor (AC Voltage), the older hall effect 3 wire cam sensors (DC Voltage) will not read correctly on a newer ecu since the ecu does not have the hardware to interface it correctly AFAIK, everything else should be the same, if someone has an ecu pin out of a 99-01 explorer they can compare it to the 99-04 mustang pin out and post back with the differences

    http://info.efidynotuning.com/pinouts.htm

    TestPoint.... PATS, fuel pressure, injector size, injector connectors, vss vs oss, is all irrelevant non-issues when tuning, you simply plug in to the ecu the information for the equipment that you have no problem

    however, having an early engine/ecu with a late trans is no problem for the ecu it will control it correctly, however the newer trans do not have a VSS on the output shaft so you will not have a functional speedometer input on 98 and older explorers unless you swap in a newer 99+ gauge cluster that reverse calculates vehicle speed from the OSS sent from the ecu, same as the 99+ ecu's

    I sifted through those links briefly so if there was other concerns just let me know
     
  12. TestPoint

    TestPoint Active Member

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    Thanks for definitively resolving the cam sensor issue. Both sensors report to the same PCM pin so there has always been a question on whether you could ignore this or have to deal with it. I suspect that the answer is now that it cannot be ignored and will post a link to this discussion in the referenced one.

    The referenced thread has the PCM C202 pin out for both the early and late second generation Explorer with the changes identified. Someone with the earlier Mustang pin out could make this complete.

    I wasn't dealing with tuning when the linked thread was created . . . I was struggling with getting an engine swap running in an old car. Hopefully, some of the info there will be of help to others trying to get some strange engine running in another body.
     
  13. CDW6212R

    CDW6212R Hauls the mail. Elite Explorer

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    I'm like most, just a novice reader who tries to figure out the best way before jumping in the deep end.

    There are many odd differences between the 96-97 Explorer 302 PCM, and the 99-01, plus the 98 is similar to both etc. Ford made tons of changes during the 97 model year, thus the mid year EGR change, and supposedly two different PCM's.

    1998 was a big model year change for the whole vehicle, including the digital range sensor for the 4R70W, different trans case(accumulators etc) and reverse diode. The VSS sensor was ended then too, and the rear diff ABS sensor became the VSS, and that signal doesn't go to the PCM. In 98-01's, it goes to the unique ABS module, which "treats" the signal and sends that to the PCM and speedometer. The Explorers before 2002 didn't get an extra external speed sensor, which I gather is the OSS on the later 4R trans.

    The 302 from 96-98 uses a three wire cam synchronizer, the two wire sensor was in 1999-01's.

    I've heard that I could use the 4.6 computer, even the 99-04's and the COP ignition, but I'm okay with the Explorer DIS version(two coils).

    I finally got the wiring harness from an 02 Mustang SOHC auto, that engine harness is bigger than I thought it would be. The Explorer harness connects to the engine/trans/PCM as one, but the engine section is small compared to the 4.6 I noticed.


    That VSS signal going through the ABS module for 98-01's is why people should avoid that PCM for any non Explorer vehicle. The 96-07's make more sense, those have a normal VSS in the trans, and the ABS is not part of the system. Most people think the PATS is the biggest problem, but we've been through that(TestPoint that is).
     
  14. 2000StreetRod

    2000StreetRod Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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    tuning packages

    I evaluated tuning packages in Feb 2014 for my 2000 Sport but avoided QuarterHorse because of concerns about the reliability of using the J3 port. Has that been an issue?

    I will soon be needing tuning capability for my 2003 Explorer. I can either purchase a new package, expand my SCT Advantage III license or transfer my Advantage III license from the 2000 Sport to the 2003 Limited and purchase a new package for the Sport. According to the Moates Net website the QH1 is functional with Fords thru 2004. That conflicts with
    I don't yet know if my 2003 has a J3 port but I do know that it is not CANBUS. My ScanGauge shows it as Ford PWM protocol. According to ScanGauge the CANSF protocol was implemented in 2004 and later Ford vehicles.

    I'm concerned that Explorer compatibility is assumed by those familiar with Mustangs but not Explorers. I am disappointed with the number of missing or non-functional PIDs with my SCT X3/LiveLink combination on my 2003 when compared to what I have on my 2000.

    A major cost of developing a product is testing to determine compatibility. I don't want to be the person doing the work that should have been done by a manufacturer. Unless I can find a list of validated functional PIDs for my 2003 Explorer to evaluate I'll be hesitant to purchase any other tuning package.

    When I first purchased my Advantage III license the list of calibration constants were considerably less than those I knew were in the firmware. When I contacted SCT I was informed that I only had a beginner status and that I needed to take one of their courses before I would qualify for "Calibrator" status. One of the justifications for the required course was safety because of electronic throttle control. Since that wasn't implemented until the 2004 Explorer SCT was kind enough to grant me Calibrator status giving me access to many more calibration constants but still significantly less than those available in the PCM firmware. I accept that since I know the source code is proprietary and vendors have to pay for access. I don't understand how a reputable company or person can say they provide a tool that can modify or add to the capabilities of the firmware without providing the source code to the tool user and requiring a non-disclosure agreement.
     
  15. 2000StreetRod

    2000StreetRod Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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    QuarterHorse support

    I reviewed the QuarterHorse support software listed on the Moates website. The list has not been updated since Feb 2014. Neither of my strategies (PCAG4 & JECE6) are supported and all but a few of the strategies that are supported are for editing only (no datalog). There's a comment "The best way to find out what strategies are supported by EEC Editor is to download it and install it" or in other words try your luck. Some of the links result in page not found and one of the links crashed my computer. The QuarterHorse forum has been terminated.

    I suspect that QuarterHorse got off to a good start but has since fizzled out because the J3 connector is not on vehicles manufactured in the US after 2003. There's probably still enough 12 to 20 year old Mustangs on the road for a minimal market. I doubt there would be any improvement support for an Explorer that old.
     
  16. Dono

    Dono 347 V8 Limited turbo Elite Explorer

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    decipha stated it would be best to use a different strategy all together with a different ecu. He also stated that if there was enough interest in tuning a certain strategy he would build it in. This is a time versus financial return thing, completely understood.

    decipha knows his stuff and see's no issue with using a readily available ecu from something like an F-150 and use a different strategy that is a 302 with 4r70w. Really, its a computer running a program. That's it. If anything, the F-150 will have a few more options including knock sensor.

    decipha has not tried loading a different strategy directly on to our existing ecu's. This could very well work, but there is always a risk of things going horribly wrong. I like the idea of the f-150 ecu so that there is always plan 'b'.

    It is just going to take one of us to jump in to the water to find out what the temperature is like. I'm sure with decipha's knowledge and help the first pcm transplant would go extremely well. After that, the fear would be gone. Worst possible case, its back to an sct tuner and pro racer package on the original pcm.
     
  17. 2000StreetRod

    2000StreetRod Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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    Core Tuning

    I found Core Tuning that offers an EEC Analyzer and a Binary Editor for the strategies listed below. It looks like John is a winner but I don't know what you 5.0L guys have. I'm out of luck for both of my vehicles. I don't know anything about the reputation of the company or their products.

    J3 = Chip based tuning (Moates Quarterhorse or F3 or TwEECer)
    J2534 = Flash based tuning (Drew Tech Mongoose cable)

    Model SubType Year Filename Catchword Strategy Interface
    EXPLORER 4.0L 1998 QAAC5C2 BAE2 QAAC5 J2534 or J3
    EXPLORER 5.0L 1998 RAAD3G5 NRT1 RAAD3 J2534 or J3
    EXPLORER 5.0L 1998 RAAD3GA AAE0 RAAD3 J2534 or J3
    EXPLORER 5.0L 1998 RAAD3U3 PCC1 RAAD3 J2534 or J3
    EXPLORER 5.0L 1998 RAAD4G2 MCR0 RAAD4 J2534 or J3
    EXPLORER 5.0L 1998 RAAD4G8 MCR2 RAAD4 J2534 or J3
    EXPLORER 5.0L 1998 RAAD4R4 MCR1 RAAD4 J2534 or J3
    EXPLORER 5.0L 1998 RAAD4RZ EDS1 RAAD4 J2534 or J3
    EXPLORER 5.0L 1998 RAAD4U2 EDS0 RAAD4 J2534 or J3
    EXPLORER 5.0L 1998 RAAD4U9 EDS2 RAAD4 J2534 or J3
    EXPLORER 5.0L 1999 REAC3A2 EQE2 REAC3 J2534 or J3
    EXPLORER 5.0L 1999 REAC3A3 EQE0 REAC3 J2534 or J3
    EXPLORER 5.0L 1999 REAC3A8 EQE1 REAC3 J2534 or J3
    EXPLORER 5.0L 2000 REAC3AC FMN0 REAC3 J2534 or J3
    EXPLORER 5.0L 2000 REAC4A2 EQE3 REAC4 J2534 or J3
    EXPLORER 5.0L 2000 READ0A2 EQE4 READ0 J2534 or J3
    EXPLORER 5.0L 2000 READ0A5 EQE5 READ0 J2534 or J3
    EXPLORER 5.0L 2000 READ0A7 FLN0 READ0 J2534 or J3
     
    Last edited: December 31, 2015
  18. carlover

    carlover Well-Known Member

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    Im going to be doing some remote tuning witb decipha on my project.
     
  19. 2000StreetRod

    2000StreetRod Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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    PCM hardware

    I reviewed a database of Ford strategies. For the 1996 F series with 5.0L the PCM hardware type is either ML1-441 or ML1-442 with part numbers dependent on the strategy and calibration type. For the 1998 Explorer with 5.0L the PCM hardware type is ML2-473 and for the 2000 the type is ML2-8A1. According to the electrical wiring diagram for a 1996 F-150 Supercab its 5.0L engine uses a distributor. I seriously doubt that an F-150 PCM can support computer controlled electronic ignition. According to electrical wiring diagrams the PCM pinout for the 1998 PCM with 5.0L is identical to the 2000 PCM. I don't know why they are different hardware types. The 2000 may have a faster clock rate.
     
  20. 2000StreetRod

    2000StreetRod Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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    reputation

    According to one of the Mustang forums he has a good reputation and provides a well rounded tune (OEM quality) and not just a max performance tune. I used a lot of his posted general information when I started my tuning and it was very helpful.
     
  21. decipha

    decipha Active Member

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    egr difference is minute and irrelevant that doesnt affect the tune any way you simply set the ecu for the egr type you have no problem

    98+ uses a dtr instead of an mlps, basically instead of having an analog voltage of 0-5v previously on the older 97- vehicles in 98+ henry swapped to having multiple switches to know which gear the vehicle is in

    reverse diode and accumulator changes are irrelevant when tuning, the vss isn't required, an oss is required for shifting and is present on all 91-04 4r70w and aode transmissions, the tss turbine shaft speed sensor was present on the newer 4r75 trans
    you simply tell the ecu what you have no problem

    you can use any computer you wish you simply have to program it correctly for what you have

    there's no point in replacing your harness, simply add in the items you desire like coil on plugs if you want

    pats can by copy and pasted between ecu's no problem or if you'd like you can simply disable it, either way pats is of no concern at all

    Ive never had any issues tuning over the j3 port? can you elaborate more? The J3 port is the only means of perfectly dialing in a tune, making decimal changes over the obd2 port takes FOREVER when you can simply update the value while the engine is running

    if your 2003 explorer is a v6 its not going to have a j3 port since its not an intel ecu, the "up to 2004" range that moates specifies applies to the mustang which switched to can bus in 2005, henry started using pre-can ecu's as early as 2000 which is what I have in my 2000 lincoln ls 5spd, its not an intel ecu so it doesn't have a j3 port which means you can't use a quarterhorse on it

    your best bet for the 03 explorer would be SCT, they get the strategy files handed to them by ford

    the ecu executes the tune which is the code, unlike other manufacturers there is no OS, the binary file is the actual Intel assembly code, i have a write up on my website that explains how to get started with disassembly if you wish to learn
    http://info.efidynotuning.com/dis.htm

    i wouldn't say there's a risk of anything going horribly wrong, the engine will either start up or it won't, no harm will come to the engine

    a 96 f-150 ecu is too old, the 99-04 f-150/mustang/expedition/navigator/lightning/harley davidson/marauder/town car/crown vic/grand marquis/continental ecu is the ideal ecu to use since I already have it broken out and open source FREE to all

    also a little FYI, as early as 1989 mustang foxbodies ecu's have the code to run an EDIS engine using an edis module, this has been done thousands of times and I have a write up on my website that gives you all the details


    I understand everyone's concerns and doubts regarding tuning, and they are somewhat well rounded as there doesn't seem to be any tuning information that I can find at all on this forum. I know it can be difficult to get accurate information and hopefully I can help all of you out there.

    btw, carlover contact me the other day about tuning his 98 explorer 5.0L - PCC1 ecu, its of the RAAD3 strategy. I did a quick disassembly of the binary to take a look around and its pretty straight forward.

    the 98 explorer ecu is a 4 bank ecu same as the 99-04 ford ecu's, the main difference is the ecu clock speed is much slower, I hadn't peeked at the ecu pin out yet but most likely its all the same, once I get the clock speed worked out I suspect the 98 explorer ecu will be no different than the 99-04s
     

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