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6R60 Torque Converter Lockup/1-2 Shift Quality Issues

Discussion in 'Stock 2006 -2010 Explorers' started by rustylugnut, April 24, 2019.

^^Searches ExplorerForum.com^^





  1. rustylugnut

    rustylugnut New Member

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    My v8/6r Mountaineer has 1-2 shift quality issues. 166k miles. Not sure if original trans or not. It upshifts smoothly around 3500rpm, but it tends to flare occasionally on >~3500rpm upshifts, and shift sort of harsh on <~3500rpm upshifts. You can feel a sort of bump/clunk when the 2-1 deceleration downshift occurs as well, shortly before you come to a stop.
    The torque converter doesn't like to stay locked when cruising 30-50mph either. At low throttle inputs, such as when just cruising along, it will lock and unlock almost constantly, causing the engine speed to vary 200rpm up/down every few seconds.
    [​IMG]
    This is showing the TC locking and unlocking while cruising at a steady 45mph. Notice the increases in TC slip rpm coincide with fluctuations in the TCC servo amperage, which controls TC lockup.
    The torque converter is supposed to lock during upshifts. If it fails to do so the unlocked converter will allow shifts to flare some.
    [​IMG]
    Take note mainly of the RPM and TC Slip RPM lines during this WOT 1-2 shift. During the upshift, the torque converter slip rpm should fall steadily and quickly to 0, indicating a locked converter. The RPM should also decrease steadily as 2nd gear is engaged. The brief flatline in the rpm(flare) during the 1-2 shift coincides with the torque converter slip rpm briefly increasing. That means the shift flare is caused by the TC failing to lock. Not sure what is causing this. [​IMG]
    This is an example of a much less sloppy WOT upshift. The purple line at the very bottom is the Torque Converter Control solenoid amperage. This solenoid controls the lockup that occurs while cruising along, but apparently doesn't control the lockup that occurs during upshifts. Not sure what does.
    Anyone have any insight on either of these issues, or know where I can find some? Haven't been able to find a whole lot. I'm trying to get my hands on some factory powertrain controls manuals.
     
    Last edited: June 7, 2019
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  3. transman304

    transman304 Elite Explorer

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    I found this as a TSB for the coast down clunk. May just need the latest software installed. What program are you using to gather the information? Can you get accelerator pedal information? A long with OSS numbers.



    DRIVELINE BUMP WHILE BRAKING - BELOW 10 MPH (16 KM/H)
    TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN

    Reference Number(s): 08-24-4, Date of Issue: December 8, 2008
    Superceded Bulletin(s): 08-4-16, Date of Issue: March 3, 2008
    NOTE: This article supersedes TSB 08-4-16 to update the Service Procedure.
    ISSUE
    Some 2006-2008 Explorer, Mountaineer and 2007-2008 Explorer Sport Trac vehicles equipped with a 6R60 transmission may exhibit a bump feeling while braking to a stop less than 10 MPH (16 Km/h). The following procedure will improve the bump felt while braking to a stop.

    ACTION
    Follow the Service Procedure steps to correct the condition.

    SERVICE PROCEDURE
    NOTE: DO NOT ATTEMPT TO REPLACE THE MECHATRONIC UNIT. MECHATRONIC REPAIR / REPLACEMENT IS NOT AUTHORIZED FOR THIS ISSUE.
    1. Install Integrated Diagnostic System (IDS) / Portable Diagnostic Software (PDS) or equivalent and ID the vehicle.
    2. Update the powertrain control module (PCM) and transmission control module (TCM) calibration using IDS release 57.11 and higher or 58.2 and higher. This new calibration is not included in the VCM 2008.11 DVD. Calibration files may also be obtained at www.motorcraft.com. Since the TCM cannot be independently reprogrammed, reprogram the Programmable Module Installation (PMI) function to ensure that engine and transmission calibrations are updated to the latest level simultaneously.
      NOTE: AUTHORIZATION DECAL NOT REQUIRED.
      1. Verity that the TCM Calibration shows 8L2P-7J104-AC, (8L2P-7J104-CC for builds after 12/3/2007) part number after reprogramming is complete.
      Select the following from the IDS tool, Toolbox, Powertrain, OBD Test Modes, Mode Level 9 Vehicle Info, TCM Cal Part Number.
    3. Clear TCM keep alive memory (KAM) and adaptive tables.
      1. Using IDS:
        1. Open Toolbox.
        2. Choose Powertrain.
        3. Choose Reset KAM.
        4. Then Choose TCM.
      2. Using PDS:
        1. Choose all Tests and Calibrations.
        2. Scroll down the menu and Choose Reset TCM KAM.
      NOTE: FOR PDS, RESET TCM KAM IS NOT THE SAME AS CLEAR TRANSMISSION ADAPTIVE TABLES WHICH IS UNDER THE POWERTRAIN TRANSMISSION MENU TREE.
      NOTE: UNHOOKING THE BATTERY WILL NOT CLEAR THE TCM KAM. IT IS CRITICAL THAT TCM KAM BE CLEARED PRIOR TO RELEARNING THE ADAPTIVE TABLES FOR THE TRANSMISSION.
      NOTE: DO NOT CLEAR THE PCM KAM.
    4. Verify that the transmission fluid temperature (TFT) PID is above 175°F (80°C). If it is not at 175°F (80°C), drive unit approximately 3 miles (5 Km) to reach temperature.
      NOTE: TFT MUST BE AT 175°F (80°C) OR ABOVE BEFORE PROCEEDING TO STEP 5.
      NOTE: PERFORM ADAPTIVE SHIFT STRATEGY LEARN ON LEVEL SURFACE ROAD.
    5. Drive unit to perform adaptive shift strategy learn.
      1. Accelerate from rest with light throttle to 15 MPH (24 Km/h), remove foot from accelerator pedal.
      2. Brake very gently to a complete stop (allow at least six (6) seconds).
      3. Repeat steps (a-b) five (5) times in the dealership parking lot or similar setting.
      4. Accelerate from rest with light throttle. The 1-2, 2-3, and 3-4 shifts occur at engine speeds between 1700-2000 RPM.
      5. Continue to accelerate gently to 50 MPH (80 Km/h) or the 5-6 upshift.
      6. Brake gently to a complete stop and hold loot on brake for at least ten (10) seconds.
      7. Repeat Steps (d-f) a total of three (3) times.
    NOTE: THE HARSH BUMP FELT WHILE BRAKING TO A STOP WILL BE IMPROVED. HOWEVER, SEVERAL DAYS OF DRIVING MAY BE REQUIRED FOR THE TRANSMISSION TO FULLY ADAPT.
    WARRANTY INFORMATION
    WARRANTY STATUS: Eligible Under Provisions Of New Vehicle Limited Warranty Coverage.

    IMPORTANT: Warranty coverage limits/policies are not altered by a TSB. Warranty coverage limits are determined by the identified causal part.
    WARRANTY INFORMATION

    DEALER CODING
     
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  4. rustylugnut

    rustylugnut New Member

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    Thanks for the TSB. That's definitely my issue. The TCM is on the software it was built with. Where did you find TSBs?
    I'm using FORScan to get the data. It can get APP and VSS data. From what I can tell the VSS is the OSS. APP data is in the first data shot I posted. Doesn't seem to be related to TC cycling. What's with the sudden spikes in the TP % though?
    [​IMG]
    This is the service manual diagnostic routine for torque converter cycling. I notice that a defective TCC shift solenoid is a possible cause of tc cycling/chatter. Does the TCC shift solenoid control the lockup on shifts, as the name would imply? I need to see if I can monitor anything related to this. There doesn't seem to be much about the inner workings of the mechatronic assembly in the service manual.
    The next step in diagnosing this is monitoring the TCC fluid pressure(WK) with a gauge, via the tap on the transmission. Not exactly sure how to go about this though. Anyone done this?
    Sorry for the late reply.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2019
  5. Greeder59

    Greeder59 New Member

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    I'm having the same problem with a 2010 Eddie Bauer Explorer. 1 to 2 shift is delayed (IE: engine revs too high before shifting). Clunk when decelerating to a stop. Poor gas mileage.
    I bought this vehicle with 138K miles and have no idea if it has been serviced. I suspect not.
     
  6. rustylugnut

    rustylugnut New Member

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    I have poor gas mileage and a delayed 1-2 shift as well. The engine has new coils and plugs, fuel filter, air filter, and catalytic converters. No CEL. Runs like a top.
    There has been much deliberation about this issue without any solid diagnosis, from what I've found. Many have replaced the torque converter and it fixes it, but only temporarily. I haven't been able to find any TSBs about it, but I'd expect one. It's a pretty well documented issue.
    My Mountaineer had new trans fluid before I bought it, but not a filter replacement. Some fix it with new fluid and filter, some don't.
    I need to get around to monitoring the fluid pressure. That should point me in some direction.
    I'd also be very curious to see the same data readouts from someone with an 06+ v8 who isn't having the issue.
     
  7. Greeder59

    Greeder59 New Member

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    Well, as a first step I had the driveline serviced. I assume that it wasn't done by the original owner (it never is). So, tranny, transfer case, and differential were serviced including flush and replace fluids with all synthetics. The tech verified that the tranny was not previously serviced. Seems to have made a difference. So far I haven't seen the 1-2 shift issue and the thing seems to run and shift much smoother. So I guess that anyone experiencing drivability issues should first check that the service history is up to date.
    I should note that I have the V6 engine. @rustylugnut: I see that you have the V8. From other postings and things I have read on-line, it seems that the V8 causes tranny problems. It seems that Ford uses the same tranny for both engines. That doesn't strike me as very good engineering.
     
  8. rustylugnut

    rustylugnut New Member

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    I realize now that I didn't specify which engine/trans I had. Whoops. The 4th gen explorers/mountaineers have the 6R60S transmission behind the v8, and 5R55S behind the v6. So we are not much help to each other. Nonetheless, I really appreciate your contribution.
    Last night I was cruising through a parking lot when the transmission jolted really hard, like I got rear ended, and it went into limp mode. Drive/reverse engagements are very harsh as well, to the point of almost stalling the engine. Got code P0770, shift solenoid E circuit shorted to power. Also got two new "Uxxxx" CAN fault codes, one involving ABS and one involving the instrument cluster, that I can't recall right now.
    When I search around for P0770 threads, it seems they all come back to CAN interference discussion. The harness that the CAN-bus wires are in runs directly atop the #4 spark plug coil. If that coil is old or cheap, it will produce EM interference, messing with the CAN messages.
    Ford Communication U-codes Caused by Faulty Ignition System
    I'm going to look into this more.
     
    Last edited: June 13, 2019
  9. Explorer_PL

    Explorer_PL Elite Explorer

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    I have 284k on my original 6R60. Shifts just fine. At about 220k or so I had some bad coils that caused U0100 or something like that code, lost communication with TCM and all that good stuff. Ford dealer said I need a new valve body with TCM. I got a rebuilt valve body from eBay vendor and replaced that which of course did not fix the issue. The new coils did.
    What I am trying to say is that internally, the 6R's are pretty good trannies. The mechatronic with its 7 solenoids may need a replacement at some point. My TC went kaput at 200k as well but the rest is just fine. For the past few years, every summer I drop the pan and filter and replace the fluid, can't hurt.

    PS:For those who care:)
    02-05 Explorers used 5R55 trannies, S for v6, W for v8.
    06-10 Explorer v6, all 5R55S
    06 - 08 used 6R60
    09 - 10 used 6R80
     
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  10. rustylugnut

    rustylugnut New Member

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    What were the symptoms when your TC went bad? And were there any other issues besides the U code when the coils were causing interference?
    I've removed the mechatronic assembly from the transmission, and removed the tcm from the valve body. Found very little debris in the pan and on the magnet. Kind of having a hard time deciding how to proceed.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    My plan was to vacuum test the bores and vales in the valve body, to see if any issues lie there. But I'll have to buy a vacuum pump and testing setup for that. I need to figure out how to test the solenoids as well. People say that the valve bodies on these transmissions aren't very problematic. Some advise to just replace all of the solenoids while you're in there too.
    I'm gonna at least split it open and have a look.
    Also, p0770 isn't solenoid E open circuit, it's solenoid E circuit shorted to power.
     
  11. Bill MacLeod

    Bill MacLeod Active Member

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    Has your trans ever been serviced? Fluid looks dark, friction modifiers probably well spent.

    Wonder if a new filter and SP would solve any of your issues.
     
  12. transman304

    transman304 Elite Explorer

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  13. Explorer_PL

    Explorer_PL Elite Explorer

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    To answer Rysty's question:

    my TC locked up and would not disengage at all. It means that the tranny was coupled with the flywheel and the engine all the time when in gear, R or D's. So when I would pull up to a red light and depress the brake pedal, that should disengage the TC as if depressing the clutch in the manual transmission car. In my case it did not and the car was trying to move forward and with my foot on the brake. That would also try to stall the engine, the rpm would drop and also the oil pressure would drop causing the engine to make clacking noise. 2 shops told me I need a new engine when they listen and looked at it, so I got a low miles engine and dropped it in myself . Started it up and had same issue and noise. Now, I am way smarter (LOL) and know what was going on, but back then I did not think it was TC since while driving on the highway, even towing, the engine and tranny worked great so I dismissed TC, my bad.
    Finally I went to a dealer to have it diagnosed and withing few minutes the tech told my my TC is bad. He even tried to disengage it through his Ford computer or whatever that was and could not.
    Now I have a low mileage (200k) spare engine sitting in my garage.
     
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  14. rustylugnut

    rustylugnut New Member

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    I have a receipt saying a shop replaced the fluid, but not the filter, for the previous owner in February 2019. Less than 10,000 miles on the new fluid, per the receipt. I called the shop and they said they put factory spec in, but who knows. It does look kinda dirty, but it doesn't smell burnt or anything. I could see how the fluid could get dirty pretty quick in the transmission. 170,00 miles has produced plenty of loose clutch material to settle about. I'd like to flush the cooler, but I don't have the equipment.
    I ordered a "new take-off" Ford mechatronics unit for $200. Not sure what a new take-off is. Also ordered a new pump adaptor seal, new rubber feed tubes from the valve body into the case, and filter.
    The blue, green, and black rubber feed tubes can be seen in this shot of the bottom of the case with the pan and mechatronic unit removed. The pump adaptor has a rectangular plastic frame with two rubber seals inset. It had already been removed when this picture was taken. It seals up against the two rectangular holes at the bottom of the pic. Degradation of the feed tubes and pump adaptor are attributed to shift quality and trans behavior issues. Replacing them for good measure.
    [​IMG]
    Took the valve body apart, too, for curiosity's sake. Found not a whole lot. Looks like a valve body. Took some of the solenoids and valves out of some suspect bores and didn't see anything amiss, but you can't really tell just by looking.
    [​IMG]
     
  15. rustylugnut

    rustylugnut New Member

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    Put the new valve body in, with the old mechatronic unit. New rotorcraft filter and 9 quarts of SP fluid.
    It's still ****ed up. Comes in an out of limp mode with a gear 1 ratio code. Will sometimes shift through what feels like gears 3-6, but doesn't like coming to a stop and trying to shift into first. Doesn't seem like the TC is locking up either.
     
  16. rustylugnut

    rustylugnut New Member

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    Looked into it some more earlier. Seems like first is binding up. If you keep it out of first it shifts 2-3-4-5-6 butter smooth, as it did before. TC still cycles. Haven't driven it comprehensively enough to say whether the occasional shuddering and harsh lockup is fixed.
    TCM code is P0731 first gear ratio error. Workshop manual points to TCM or wiring issue. I did reuse my old TCM. Foolishly.
    Also U1900-20 stored in the instrument cluster.
    I have data logs that I might get around to posting.
     
    Last edited: June 24, 2019
  17. PotatoExplorer

    PotatoExplorer Active Member

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    Sorry Rustylugnut :(. I had fallen into a rabbit hole trying to figure out my TC cycling for several years with zero luck. Although, you seem to be way more adept to figuring out the issue than I was/am. I tried everything from plugs, COPs, fuel filters, throttle bodies, throttle positioning sensors, new tires and a handful of other things and it never did go away. Several times I thought I had tackled the problem only for it to randomly show up later. I have pretty much given up on the vehicle and just use it to move me and the family from point A to point B.

    It sounds like you're dealing with a whole other boat load of problems with first gear so I hope you can get that taken care of, best of luck!

    You wouldn't happen to have a sever exhaust manifold gasket leak? I sometimes wonder if there's a correlation between my exhaust leak and the TC cycle.
     
  18. rustylugnut

    rustylugnut New Member

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    Your thread provided a lot more insight into the issue than most other sources I've come across. I have minor manifold leaks on both sides. Hadn't considered a correlation between the two, but I wouldn't rule it out.
    I'm suspicious of the tc cycling issue being caused by some sort of external electrical issue, such as CAN interference. But as far as I'm aware forscan isn't capable of graphing raw CAN voltages, so I haven't been able to look into it much.
    I did notice something interesting in the data I logged the other day, investigating the no 1st issue. The converter only cycles when the TCM is attempting to slip it slightly to reduce nvh. Apparently at 47mph with light load it goes full apply, and the TC stays locked. Notice as the speed drops below 47, the TCC servo amperage goes from .75 to .3, then it starts doing the weird oscillations, and the TC cycles. Curious what parameters the TCM monitors to decide the state of the converter. I've noticed that if you maintain just the right amount of load as you're accelerating, the TC won't cycle in the 30-47mph range, as it usually does. It can also be provoked into cycling in high-load conditions at highway speeds, such as climbing a hill. Makes sense now.
    [​IMG]
    Also this snapshot of an engagement into drive. Measured ratio begins to spike off the chart as 1st is engaged, then it defaults to 3rd.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: July 3, 2019
  19. rustylugnut

    rustylugnut New Member

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    Anyone know if it's possible to drain the trans fluid by disconnecting the feed line from the cooler, starting the engine and letting it pump all the fluid out? I can't find any info on doing it this way on the 6r60. Can't even find any info on which line is the feed line. It's making things difficult.
     
  20. Tike

    Tike Active Member

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    think these engines have bypass valves in the trans line so you cant get all the fluid unless your up to temp.

    going to sound dumb but i had this issue 2 years ago. would stutter going 45+ TC failing to to lock up. got replaced. then few weeks later the issue occurred but not as bad just a slight bump but i knew it was the tc not locking. they took it back monitored it and said i had 2 misfires. and replaced all plugs and the 2 coils. ran fine after that. issue is coming back now went to shop and they said i have 2 cylinders with intermittent misfires.

    check your plugs again. and coils.
     
    Last edited: July 11, 2019
  21. rustylugnut

    rustylugnut New Member

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    The coils are new, but suspect. The guy I bought this thing from put a bunch of cheap shit parts on it. Sometime I'm gonna get around to the misfire data. If there is a miss causing the tc cycling, it isn't detectable by the senses at all.
    New TCM installed today. Mechatronics unit came back out, new TCM swapped on, reinstalled. And now it won't start. Cranks for a second then stops. I know the TCM needs to be reprogrammed, but I'd expect it to at least start. I don't see what could do it besides the gear lever valve position sensor thing. I lined it all up fine though. I know because I forgot to when I first bolted the TCM on. Perhaps this is why people talk about towing to the dealer for reprogramming?
    Pumped 4 or so quarts of the old fluid out through the cooler line. They both go into the bottom of the radiator, driver's side is the feed line. Pumped slowly but surely until it was shut off for just long enough to allow the fluid to go below 185F, closing the thermal bypass valve. There was about a quart left in the pan.
     

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