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Frame rust- when to do?

Discussion in 'General Explorations!!' started by JasonF, October 3, 2002.

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    1. JasonF

      JasonF Active Member

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      I have a 1996 XLT that is in really nice condition. It has been in my family since new and there is no body rust at all. However, the frame, leafs, everything underneath it seems is rusty. Are vehicle frames just left as bare metal with the thought that the vehicle will die before the frame rusts through? Is this just surface rust and it's nothing to worry about? This may seem like a dumb question but I'd really like to know if this is considered normal. thanks!
       
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    3. KillerXLT

      KillerXLT Active Member

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      My 95 has 120,000 miles and has rust on the frame as well. Mine has also been in the fam since new and pops handed it down to me. The paint is actually chiping off on parts of the frame. I pealed off the chips and sprayed it w/ Rustolym for now. When I get a chance I will sand it and respray it. I was also thinking about undercoating with that stuff that the dealership uses when you buy the vehicle brand new. I have heard that a vehicle only needs to be undercoated only once. But obviously that is not true in my case.
       
    4. Skugga

      Skugga Active Member

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      My X was also in my family since it was new. It older than either of yours but it started rusting about 2 years ago. I cleaned it up a little and used this stuff made by Eastwood called rust encapsulator on it. You can put it on over the rust and it does something to stabilize the rust. When it dries it looks like red primer so you can put any kind of black paint or undercoating over it.
       
    5. squd92expsp

      squd92expsp Elite Explorer<br><img src="/forums/images/stars4.

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      Can the leaf springs and coil springs be painted as well?

      I was thinking about the rust collecting on my frame a few days ago and already got plans to paint the underside of my x.
       
    6. Hartman

      Hartman Explorer Addict

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      There is a number of ways that you can take care of the rust on the underside and make it look better. You can spray truck bed coating under there or use Rustoleum. Take a look of my rear!
       

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    7. Jason_25

      Jason_25 Elite Explorer<br>ECX Member

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      The rust is normal. It's just surface rust and won't hurt anything. The rust you should worry about is rust on the body!

      It would take 16486937537352385.462373 years for your frame to actually rust away.
       
    8. Robb

      Robb Explorer Addict

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      Yea, only clean and paint the frame for looks. The surface rust itself will prevent any other rusting from occuring.

      Robb
       
    9. punkbek3886

      punkbek3886 Active Member

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      should deep flaking rust be taken care of quickly? i dont like it and one of these days im gonna grind it all off and paint it. i think the guy who used to own mine used it to launch a boat and the back end went into salt water.
       
    10. Robb

      Robb Explorer Addict

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      YES!..............flacking rust is a different story. It allows water to get trapped, causing more and more penetrating rust. Surface rust OK, penetrating rust NOT OK.

      Robb
       
    11. MONMIX

      MONMIX I fix dents Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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      I always get nervous when a guy tells me to do that.
       
    12. Bronco_bill

      Bronco_bill Active Member

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      an old trick I use, next time you change your oil save it ,get a paint brush slop it on everything you want to protect, then drive over a dusty road, in about three days all the extra crap will drip off, better than any protection you can buy.
       
    13. topo4u2

      topo4u2 Active Member

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      I agree with Bill, the best treatment is oil and a brush but it is very tedious and dirty work but I did mine, and have been doing all the vehicles I owned. I only wish I could afford to buy a new one and do it. I doubt I would ever see rust on it.
       
    14. punkbek3886

      punkbek3886 Active Member

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      im gonna get a wheel for the drill and wheel all that stuff off. the only thing im worried about though is the top of the frame since it is almost flush against the body and i wouldnt be able to get the wheel in there or a wire brush. i guess a simple solution to that would be to get a body lift lol.
       
    15. Bored_2wd

      Bored_2wd Active Member

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      What you need is a product called POR-15. This costs like 30 bucks a quart, but it goes a really long way. This stuff is designed to be painted on directly over rust. It reacts with the rust and adheres to it, sealing the oxygen out. Hence, no more rust and it's incredibly strong. It will react with air, so once the quart is open the clock starts ticking. unused portions will need to be sealed and put in the fridge to keep it good for a few months.
      This stuff is incredible. Nothing takes it off, so if you use it and get it on skin, basically plan on at least a week before it comes off. It is sensitive to light, so it needs a light coat of paint over it.
      You can also buy an acid to spray on the rust before painting that helps the bonding process even more.
      Oh, you know how paint takes longer to dry in humid conditions? This stuff actually dries faster the more humid it is! It is awesome stuff.
      --Bob
       
    16. zekex2

      zekex2 Active Member

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      rustoleum makes a converter that you can buy at home depot it . I have used it in wet enviorments and am happy with it.
       
    17. dogfriend

      dogfriend Human-Animal Hybrid

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      Can you show the calculations that you did to get this number? :D

      Some things about California suck, but rusty cars isn't one of them.
       
    18. thegoon543

      thegoon543 Active Member

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      could you also use rhino lining for the undercarriage? or would it just be a pain to apply?
       
    19. jaybyrd

      jaybyrd New Member

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      Well for every vehicle I've owned I've used a trick I learned from my father who was an electrical engineer.
      Without going into full details, the idea is to stop any metal on the vehicle from oxidizing. So with a capacitor and a coupler run off the battery you can create a negative DC charge and apply it to the entire chassis, just enough overpotential to resist the chemical reaction that causes rust. In very wet or snow conditions salts from the water containing Na2+ and Cl- as you all know are the main culprits in oxidation. So instead of the rust being produced you are basically reverse plating from your truck creating a half cell electro-chemical reaction which you are simply pushing back the other way by providing a pulsating negative charge just big enough to form a ferric oxide layer on the exposed metal surfaces; which means it can't rust.

      I've seen systems advertised for hundreds of bucks, but with a little wire, and about $20 spent at radio shack, you can stop any rust from forming without ever getting dirty, or buying products which you need to use every year.
       
    20. ld50

      ld50 Oh, the money you`ll blow

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      Please outline exactly what you are doing here. I don`t quite follow, but know a little about corrosion. Couldn`t you use some sort of sacrificial anode setup to shed the charge to earth through? I always pondered a method like this, similiar to what boats will have to slow corrosion.

      And this doesn`t cause a problem with the negative ground system?

      Please show me any diagrams, pictures, drawings, schematics, 3d images, and videos of this proceedure!
      :D
       
    21. jaybyrd

      jaybyrd New Member

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      Basically what you need to do is take the voltage from your battery and invert it to output low amperage high voltage (400-450 D.C. Volts ), and at 3 or 4 points around the vehicle you send this voltage into the frame and chassis through capacitive couplers, essentially turning your entire vehicle into a giant coupler with the vehicle acting as the negative plate and the capacitive coupling points as the positive plates. The charges are localized but continually hold an overpotential on the metal surfaces of your vehicle thanks to the insulating layers of paint on the body. So while normally during corrosion OH- are being generated as a byproduct of the iron giving up 2 electrons, the constant field charge of the coupling effect your vehicle now has stops the chemical reaction from shifting electrons to the right. This is especially important in preventing chips, and scratches from starting the initiation step in the reaction of Fe(solid) = Fe - 2e- which in turn would normally generate oxidizing hydroxyl groups when mixed with moisture or good old H2O.

      Should also be noted that because this is DC voltage with almost no Amperage it has absolutely no effect on your vehicles electrical systems or computer. I mean your could hold on to a million volts with your tongue as long as there was no amperage.

      Hope that helps explain it a little better. Don't have pics or drawings but I'll see if I can borrow a digital camera and show everyone my setup and lack of rust looks like.
      I'd even be willing to put together some kits if enough people are interested. I could sell them for about $50 with a profit to me of around $10 per unit.
       
    22. ld50

      ld50 Oh, the money you`ll blow

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      Now I`m going to have to restudy my corrosion books!

      It seems like a good idea, why then, wouldn`t automakers incorporate this into every car?
      Maybe they like rust?

      I`m going to run this by a bona-fide elec. engineer at work. I`ll get back to you!
       
    23. dogfriend

      dogfriend Human-Animal Hybrid

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      I took a graduate level class in corrosion when I was in school for Material Science.

      In theory, applying a counter emf (against the normal voltage caused by the different materials present in the corrosion cell) will inhibit the corrosion process.

      In reality, I'm not sure how easily this can be applied to the many different components of a typical car frame and body. (i.e. how does this affect other parts (alternator case, radiator, transmission case) which are also grounded to the frame of the vehicle?)

      I think that the car manufacturers rely more on protective coatings because you can also inhibit corrosion by preventing the electrolyte from contacting the material. It is probably more reliable and cost effective for them to do it this way.
       
    24. ld50

      ld50 Oh, the money you`ll blow

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      I work in the oil and gas industry, and we use a system where current(electric charge) is induced into our main pipeline (1200kms long) at regular intervals.

      The idea is that buried pipelines will eventually build up a charge on their own because of the earth`s magnetic field. Experience has shown that most pipeline corrosion will occur at a point where the wrapping around the pipe has failed, and this current is allowed to discharge to earth. Of course as you already seem to know, this speeds up oxidation (rust).

      So the pipeline (and tanks) have a little extra charge induced into them and along the way there are buried "anode beds" connected directly to the pipeline. These are basically around a dozen magnesium/lead poles that are uninsulated and buried.
      Since electricity follows the path of least resistance, in theory, it will leave the pipe at these locations, and not tend to be lost in spots with damaged wrapping.
      As you pointed out, rust is caused by an electro chemical reaction, and these anodes rust very quickly.

      I had pondered using an anode connected to a vehicle with a ground strap coming off it before but thought the neg. ground was a big problem with the theory.

      I`ve only had the most basic of corrosion training, and don`t work in the corrosion department, but i did find it interesting!
       
    25. dogfriend

      dogfriend Human-Animal Hybrid

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      The most significant thing that I remember from the corrosion course that I took was that thermodynamics says that your steel body on your automobile is doomed to revert back to a pile of Iron Oxide (rust). The free energy for this reaction (iron to iron oxide) is a large negative number which means that the product (iron oxide) is much more stable than the steel or iron. This makes sense to me. They never dig to find chrome - moly tubing underground; they mine raw iron ore and put in a bunch of energy to transform it into the tubing. The tubing is at a higher energy level now. Entropy says that it must eventually revert to the lower energy form (rust).

      The only part that you have some control over is the kinetics (rate) at which the reaction occurs. If you paint it to keep electrolyte(s) away, then you slow down the reaction. If you immerse it in salt water (or even better sulfuric acid) you speed up the reaction. If you live in Buffalo NY (near where my GF grew up) you have a much better supply of electrolyte than if you live in Sacramento CA where the electrolyte isn't so good ;)

      Another interesting concept related to rusting car bodies is that you do not have to have dissimilar materials to set up a corrosion reaction. You can also get a corrosion cell by having areas with a different concentration of oxygen available which are also in electrical contact. This reaction is called crevice corrosion. So if you have a seam on your car where the paint is thin or missing, the concentration of oxygen will be higher than the areas where the paint is normal. This sets up a corrosion cell where the area with lower concentration is anodic and the seam with higher concentration is cathodic. Eventually you get rust, but not at the seam; the rust starts under the paint nearby and then eventually the paint comes off as the rust grows and flakes off.
       
    26. ld50

      ld50 Oh, the money you`ll blow

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      Well I`m still investigating this anti-rust deal.
      I talked to our resident Elec. Engineer, and he said there was a product available in Canada many years ago that similiar to what was described to me. Unfortunately, this company was ordered by the government to stop selling this product after several people sued, and the subsequent investigation found that the system didn`t live up to it`s claims. Apparently, the vehicles still rusted.

      He seemed to think that this product came up from the US, and was still available in some States, but had beened banned in others.

      However, he also said that what jaybyrd described seemed different than the system employed by the sued company (It was called "Rustbuster" or something like that).
      It peaked his interest, and he promised to look into the idea more, by asking some of his Peers in the Elec. Eng. field. His only concern was the effect of crossing streams and submerging the frame in water(?)

      I actually found out that an electrician at my work installed something like that on his truck as soon as he bought it, They say he swears by it, so I am going to try and question him about it tomorrow, so I can make a decision based on info from different sources. I`m going to search the net as well.

      Merry Christmas Yule Tides!
       

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