HELP! M5OD going into gear problem! Everything is New :(

[weasel318]

Hey everyone, long time fan and lurker on here but I have a real head scratch-er of a problem and I need some advice. I just finished a swap from 2WD to 4WD and I swapped in the appropriate M5OD but its from a 94 Explorer, my Explorer is a 2000. So I get it rebuilt and put it and in and have been driving it for around 1.8k miles now. Now ever since I put in the rebuilt trans and clutch (with a Ford slave) the truck has been getting harder and harder to get into gear. To get into gear I have to push it to the first position then hold it there and wait for something to happen and then it slides in. Sometimes it takes pushing it in 1st and pulling it towards 2nd and then pushing it back to 1st to get it into first gear. Once in gear I can put it into any gear and its fine, goes in smoothly. However, once I put it into neutral, engage the clutch, disengage the clutch, and try to select a gear again, its the same thing where I cant get it into gear. I can disengage the clutch and then fight my way to get it into gear. Once in gear I can get it into any other gear I want. I can hold the clutch pedal down for minutes and I can still select any gear I want. But its only once I engage the clutch and then disengage to select a gear again it gets hard again.

At first I thought it was air in the system but I bled with the master on the bench then i gravity bleed the slave. Im pretty sure there isnt any air in the system. The clutch people feels good, with most of the clutch act in the middle and towards the top of the pedal travel. I thought maybe the master was going bad so I changed it and its basically the same thing. Now its getting progressively worse.

Somethings I have noticed is that when i push it towards 1st with the clutch disengaged, there is a thumping noise like the clutch is still connected to the flywheel, however its not the case. I have it in 1st and the truck doesnt roll forward. Also sometimes there is a high pitched squeak.

The shop that did the rebuild said its my pilot bearing dragging on the input shaft. But I dont think this is it since once in gear it doesnt roll forward. And if this was the case wouldn't it be hard to get it into gear once I put it into neutral and regardless of whether i then engage the clutch and disengage it since the pilot would be spinning the shaft all the time?

Any advice or experience you guys have had with the m5od would be appreciated! Thank you!

 

[gmanpaint]

Sounds like the Master Slave needs replaced. Your not the first person, that has said they went bad fast. Does it slip into gear easier if the rig is still moving, and harder when stopped?

Is there any physical slop, loose play, in the shifter itself? Sometimes the pins can wear fast and that tiny bit of play, makes it harder to allow the shifter to work correctly.

The high pitch noises you hear, could be the syncro's trying to mesh. The thump could be the trans hitting the floor. No way for me to really tell. Someone else will chime in eventually and offer an opinion.

 

[RangerX]

Did you use a new slave cyl, and if so, what brand? Did you replace the pilot when you did the swap?

 

[weasel318]

The master is brand new though from Ford. has like 20 miles on it. Its easier to put it into gear at specific speeds when going back into 1st. Like 5-10 mphs and it would slide into gear very easily. However once it drops below 5 its extremely hard again. Theres no slop, its rebuilt with new bearings and bushing. Only thing that is old is the syncros.

Yup I used a new slave cylinder, Its from Ford. Pilot bearing is brand new. Thats why im scratching my head, everything on the system is brand new and from Ford, except for the clutch.

The thump is very quiet, but you can hear it and feel like. Its the same thump you hear if you try to put it in gear without disengaging the the clutch all the way normally. In my case the clutch is completely disengaged with the pedal all the way down. And when i push it into 1st, you hear a thump like something is trying to slow down. And if you rock it back and forth between 1st and 2nd gate you can hear the thump until it gives in and goes into 1st.

Im thinking the high pitch sound is the pilot bearing dragging/siezed on the input shaft? Because it only happens when im slipping my clutch from a stop. Its the loudest at that point and once the clutch is fully engaged and the input shaft is the same speed as the flywheel, it stops.

What makes me think it isnt the pilot bearing is if its dragging and keeps the input shaft spinning, wouldnt it mean I have a hard time getting it into 1st regardless of of the clutch? Because right now the only time its hard to get into gear is the first time I disengage the clutch and jam it into gear. After its in 1st and I hold the clutch, i can pull it in and out a million times without it being hard to get into gear. However, once put it into neutral, engage the clutch, and then disengage the clutch to select a gear again, the problem starts all over again. If it was a pilot bearing, wouldnt if be hard to get it into gear all the time every time i pull it out of gear?

 

[gmanpaint]

I would try to bleed the system again. If there is no air in it after that, then I would be thinking about dropping the trans, for a closer inspection.

Thrust bearing, pilot bearing, shifter kit, etc... could all be inspected at this point. Sounds like you have a decent chunk of change in it already, and it will be worth it, to do this. Might be something overlooked upon rebuild or install, whose to say, but you know somethings wrong, so why chance it?

 

[weasel318]

Bled it at least 5 times now, each time it was the bench bleeding way. And I followed the perfection youtube video and made sure there was less than 1/8 movement in the master cylinder rod when it was disconnected from the slave. Then I gravity bled the slave.

Yea I have a bunch of money in it from the swap and I dont want to throw anymore money at it. I dont know if the trans rebuild shop !@#$%^ it up or not. I know the install of the clutch and everything was by the book since I supervised/helped with it at one of my friends shop. I feel like the rebuild shop messed up the input shaft install or used a low quality shaft because they changed it during the rebuild and I dont see a pilot bearing going out so fast. Also I do get a whine at highway speed. And I think what is a whine from all gears intermittently except for maybe 4th? but not 100% on this.

Oh I didnt change the fluid from ATF DEX III/MERCON to 10-30 motor oil. Shifting is the same, but shifting once its up to speed is smoother?

Also when I changed the oil, the ATF smelled burnt and was semi discolored. Should it be like this with only 1.8k on the rebuild? Also the magnetic plug was full of metal shaving, I will post a pic of it when I use my phone.

 

[weasel318]

Here are the pics. This is with the trans running probably Half city and half highway miles. Not sure if that makes a big difference. My friend who’s shop I go to said this isn’t particularly normal with this much metal shaving on it. He said something isn’t right with the rebuild.

 

[gmanpaint]

That trans can take heat very well. It's just a slush box. But, like anything, too much heat repeatedly, can take a toll.

At this point, it needs to come out, opened up, and inspected. New gears can take time to break in, and it's normal for some shavings to occur. If a shop is saying it's more than normal for a break in period, than it just warrants the inspection .

Did you change the fluids after a 500 or so mile break in period ?

What kind of warranty was offered in the rebuild? Will they honor it?

 

[weasel318]

The gears arent new, they are the old gears. Only the bearings and bushing are new. The warranty is like 90 days unlimited miles, its been more than 90 days. The shop said once its out to take it to them for a free inspection. Dont know if they will be honest and say they messed up the rebuild if it was their fault. And dont have a guarenteed they wont nickle and dime me for every little thing.

Right now I just trying jacking up the front of the truck and stepping on the clutch and releasing it violent to see if it will jolt any trapped air in the system if there are any at all. However when I released the clutch pedal really fast, brake fluid from the opened master cylinder reservoir shot back up. Is that normal? When i tried this with my old master cylinder, the fluid stayed the same and never shot up. This new one when i release the clutch pedal really fast it shoots fluid up everywhere and all over the hood.

 

[410Fortune]

Bleed the master cylinder this way:



See if that fixes it, the design of the master causes a very small air bubble to get trapped making it near impossible to get 1st gear at times. You can bleed and bleed and never get it out unless you remove the entire system hang it on the wall and bench bleed the master while wrapping on the lines, etc etc it can take hours.
There is a much easier way to remove that bubble, takes 5 minutes to bleed the master 100% using this method.
I have done 15+ of these over the years now I bleed all the master cylinders this way and never have any issues!

 

[roscoe 0202]

it sounds like the sliding part on the first gear is worn and maybe they didn't put in a new blocking [brass] ring does it shift into the rest of the gears at a stop than first if it doesn't i'd look at the thrust on the top shaft [the shifting] portion especially for too much play
roscoe

 

[weasel318]

Hi fortune! I just took off the master cylinder disconnect and tested the pedal. Super firm with less than 1/8 give. So there should be no air in it. Yeah I bench bled this master a few times and 99.9% sure its good. The other 0.01% im not sure because its my first time doing a hydraulic clutch system LOL.

Roscoe the other gears are also hard to get into at a stop. They arent as are as 1st. They are just notchy. Im not sure if they changed the blocking ring. Im guessing they only did the bearings I figured out the thumping is from the input shaft turning and the gears trying to stop it that from happening whenever I am pushing into first. Because after 2/3 thumps from attempting to force it into 1st the sound quiets down each consecutive times until the 3rd or 4th time its silent and then it slides into 1st. Im guessing its easier to put it into high gear because the higher gears have a easier time stopping the input shaft from continuously spinning.

I probably have to drop this sucker . Im pretty sure the master is good and bled since the disconnect trick made the pedal super firm. The slave is probably good as well since pumping the pedal 100 times (i tried LOL, got desperate and tried it) didnt help anything at all. So the only thing left is the pilot bearing seized to the input shaft and or the input shaft wobbling, and also internal transmission problems.

 

[weasel318]

Hi guys. Just did a little more digging around. I am wondering if I have a defective slave or master. The clutch would always be dragging correct? Like a defective slave would cause the clutch to not get far enough away from the flywheel and cause it to drag right?

 

[410Fortune]

sounds like the infamous air bubble
No amount of bleeding will free it
You must remove the plunger to get it out 100%%%%%%
You can measure the distance your clutch is traveling to determine if it is a clutch issue or hydraulic issue

I have had lots of issues with cheap slave cylinders in these trucks, I only use Ford or Luk for these applications

 

[weasel318]

I tore it apart. Nothing seems wrong or out of place on it. The pilot doesn't seem to drag it looks like. Not sure whats wrong with it.

410Fortune, I checked the clutch movement when it was still installed, the slave had 5/8 movement it seemed and my master was completely bled. I's prettty sure it didnt have any air since the rod was firm with less than 1/8 of travel. And yes I used only Ford parts. The clutch is a Spec Stage 2.

 

[RangerX]

Did you resurface the flywheel? I seen mention here before that that could be a cause of poor engagement, and possibly using a spacer to make up the difference of the missing metal?
Just reaching, to try and help.
My clutch has been similar to yours since I changed it 12 or more years ago, and I've wondered if that could be a reason...

 

[weasel318]

Everything on the system is brand new. Didn't have to resurface anything. Starting to think its the ****ty Spec Stage 2 clutch. I know the ranger guys praise the Spec clutches, but everyone else I talked to said they have ****ty pressure plates. Taking trans to the shop that rebuilt it tmrw. Looking over everything and cant see to find anything wrong with the pilot, flywheel, or clutch.

Im not having an engagement problem though I think. Its the disengagement thats the problem. The wheels still spin when I press the clutch in. It only stops once I jam it into a gear, then use the pedal to slow the wheels which in turn slows the transmission down to the point that it will stop. Once stopped this way, the tranmission doesnt turn and in turn my wheels in the back dont turn anymore. At this point I can get into any gear I want smoothly without notches being felt or anything. However once I let the clutch go (engaging the clutch) and then pressing it in (disengaging it) the problem comes back and I have to go through what i just typed out again.

 

[410Fortune]

5/8" sounds pretty good
I only run LUK clutches
For you I would consider the SOHC clutch from LUK
It is much larger then the OHV clutch and can be installed on your flywheel easily, you just need to machine/tap 6 new holes in the flywheel for the larger pressure plate

 

[weasel318]

Heres a update to the problem. Turns out it was the ****ty Spec Stage 2 clutch I put it. The pressure plate was defective and Spec refused to do anything about it. So if I was you guys I wouldn't use their clutches.

The problem was the pressure plate was defective from the factory, so it wasn't releasing the clutch all the way when the clutch pedal was depressed. So the clutch kept spinning and thus why i couldn't get it into gear.

I put in a LUK clutch and it works perfectly now. Anyone have any recommendation for Stage 2 clutches that isnt from Spec?