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Identical cold start everyday

Discussion in 'Stock 1995 - 2001 Explorers' started by Adams95, June 18, 2011.

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    1. Adams95

      Adams95 New Member

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      So everyday when I hop in my '95 4.0 ohv explorer w/ 215k miles this is exactly what happens:
      I turn the key to on, wait a sec sometimes even 2-4 seconds, then crank the motor for around 2 seconds. The engine doesn't turn over. I pause, crank the motor and it starts rough...almost like its too rich, however it recovers and runs solid the rest of the drive (besides poor mpg). It idles at a rock solid 900rpm with or without a/c.

      The engine has new plugs, new wires, new t-stat, clean MAF, clean air temp sensor, and a new IAC.
      One thing I plan on changing is the O2 sensors, they are the stock O2 sensors. The only thing thats making me 2nd guess the changing of the O2 sensors is that I've ran a KOEO and a KOER test the past 2 days. Both times the tests just come back with '111'.
      What do you think is causing the motor to not start cleanly? Thanks for the help as always guys.
       
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    3. Adams95

      Adams95 New Member

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      any ideas guys? anyone who's had similiar problems?
       
    4. 2000StreetRod

      2000StreetRod Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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      ECT sensor?

      When you say "The engine doesn't turn over" I assume you mean the engine cranks but doesn't start. You may want to test the engine coolant temperature (ECT) sensor. The PCM may think the engine is warm when it is actually cold. Does the engine start and run normally after it is warmed up?

      The O2 sensors have to be warm to function properly. That's why they have heaters to reduce the warmup time. The PCM runs in open loop (ignores the O2 sensors) at engine start. However, the long term fuel trims at shut down are retained in nonvolatile memory for the next engine start. Does black smoke emit from the tailpipe? Do you have carbon buildup on the spark plug electrodes/insulators? Those are indications of an excessively rich mixture.
       
    5. Adams95

      Adams95 New Member

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      Thanks for the reply 2000, I'll pull a spark plug tonight and see what kind of shape they're currently in (they were put in only 2 months ago).

      Once the truck starts and runs for about 10 seconds it runs well, but it never fully gets "warmed up." If its 105 degrees outside and the truck sits with a/c on max at idle for 20 minutes it will get almost to the little logo for coolant temp, but as soon as i start driving it drops down to about 1/3 on the gauge. Even if I drive to work in 90 degree weather (20 min drive), the temp gauge never even gets to a 1/3 of the way up.
      In another post that I have...talking about my poor MPG...I cleaned my Throttle Body last night when I took it off to replace the ECT.
      However what I found on the backside of the TB and inside the intake manifold is scary! The previous owner drove the truck for about 150,000 miles with the thermostat stuck open.

      Here's the post with pictures: http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=319574&page=2

      I replaced the ECT and cleaned the TB last night, but now the truck is acting a little funny. Instead of idling like a rock at 900 RPM. It idles around 1000 and wanders just a little, about 100 rpm up or down. Also, I'm not sure if this is normal, but as soon as i turn the a/c on the idle jumps up to 1200 and then slowly gets back down to 1000, where then it continues to slightly hunt 100 rpm in either direction.

      Do you think I may have got some gunk from the TB loose and then was sucked up by the new IAC I just put in 2 nights ago?
       
    6. 2000StreetRod

      2000StreetRod Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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      clarification

      The thermostat controls the engine temperature and affects engine operation.
      The coolant temperature sender drives the temperature gauge in the instrument cluster and has no affect on the engine.
      The engine coolant temperature (ECT) sensor reports the coolant temperature to the PCM and significantly affects the air/fuel ratio of the engine.

      From your other thread I suspect that you replaced the coolant temperature sender since your gauge was always reading low temperature on a hot day after replacing the thermostat. As bobflood stated in the other thread "Did you ever check out the Engine Coolant Temp sensor that the ECU uses??"
       
    7. Adams95

      Adams95 New Member

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      No, I believe my gauge is fine, last night I replaced the ECT that the ECU uses. No change in the way the truck runs or it's operating temperature issue and it's actually running just a little bit rougher, but that could be because of the TB cleaning.
       
    8. 2000StreetRod

      2000StreetRod Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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      throttle body port?

      Make sure the small port near the throttle plate is not clogged with carbon and that the hose that connects to the port pipe has no splits and is on tight.
       
    9. Adams95

      Adams95 New Member

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      Thanks, I'm going to pull the TB out tonight and really clean it. As well as clean the IAC to make sure nothing plugged it up.
      I noticed that the port pipe's vacuum hose is very tight, is that normal?
       
    10. Adams95

      Adams95 New Member

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      Thanks, I'm going to pull the TB out tonight and really clean it. As well as clean the IAC to make sure nothing plugged it up.
      I noticed that the port pipe's vacuum hose is very tight, is that normal?
       
    11. Macgiobuin

      Macgiobuin Active Member

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      IAC valve possibile

      Sounds like an Idle Air Control valve problem to me. Take it out, play with it to see if it sticks in either the open or closed position. Use Gumout or WD40 to clean out the whole mechanism. Then give it a go. Good luck.
       
    12. Adams95

      Adams95 New Member

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      I actually just replaced the IAC 3 days ago. I even took out the IAC today once i got home from work and cleaned it out (it still looked spotless, but i cleaned it anyway). I ran a KOEO/KOER test and KOEO came back with 111 while KOER came back with a 411 code.

      I also disconnected the IAC while the car was running and the idle dropped to 500 rpm or so. Thats how the IAC is supposed to perform correct?
       
    13. 4pullingGM

      4pullingGM Active Member

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      Yep, the idle should drop or the engine stalls when the iac is disconnected. Maybe a fuel injector or fuel pressure regulator are bleeding down? That would cause a hard start and make it run rough till it clears out the extra fuel.
       
    14. Adams95

      Adams95 New Member

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      Hmm, that's a good thought, but how would I go about testing and/or fixing this?
       
    15. Adams95

      Adams95 New Member

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      I just thought of something, should the ECT have a bit of its thread sticking out? I tightened pretty hard and I wonder if it's possible to bottom out on the water pump?
       
    16. budwich

      budwich Well-Known Member

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      on the "leaky fuel system", you can get an idea of that with a fuel pressure gauge. Hook it up, run the truck til it is "happy" (ie. running smooth and such). Check the pressure. Turn the truck off, and monitor the pressure thereafter for a "trickle down" of pressure. There are discussions on that, can't remember the details, but the pressure should hold (in some form) for a fairly long period. Doesn't necessarily tell you if its a injector or regulator but may give you an idea of "next steps".
       
    17. matt0248

      matt0248 Active Member

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      From your description is does sound like you have a leaking fuel pressure regulator or leaking fuel injectors. The pressure regulator is easy to check once it is located. Pull the vacuum hose off the end and check for fuel, there should be no fuel in the vacuum hose. If there is fuel in the hose the regulators diaphram is leaking. This almost always results in a hard start after the vehicle has been sitting for awhile, but once it is running the PCM can try to compensate for the extra fuel that is being sucked into the intake.
       
    18. Adams95

      Adams95 New Member

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      I've got an interesting update, I noticed today that if i leave the key to on for about 10-15 seconds the truck starts up first time i try...wouldn't this mean that its not actually too rich starting, but actually not getting enough fuel pressure?
      My other question is...on a '95 OHV where is the FPR? Is it in the fuel tank? and if so where is the vacuum line for it so i can test for gas in the line. Thanks guys
       
    19. 2000StreetRod

      2000StreetRod Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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      FPR & fuel filter

      The fuel pressure regulator is on the fuel rail. Has it been more than 30,000 miles since you replaced the fuel filter?
       
    20. budwich

      budwich Well-Known Member

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      Well, I am not sure whether 10-15 seconds or 10 minutes even matters.... cause basically, the system is "designed" to turn OFF the pump after 2-3 seconds. Your key to your "guess work" is a fuel pressure test.
       
    21. 4pullingGM

      4pullingGM Active Member

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      Pretty sure the fuel pressure regulator is on the passenger side of the engine. A fuel pressure gauge, as others have stated, will be a big help.
       
    22. 4pullingGM

      4pullingGM Active Member

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      You might also want to try cycling the key a couple of times before you try to start the engine. If something is bleeding down fuel pressure this should build build it back up enough so that it will start normally. Doesnt fix the problem persay, but it masks the symptom.
       
    23. Adams95

      Adams95 New Member

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      well it looks like this has caused a whole new nightmare...today on the drive home from work, i was stuck in traffic for awhile. When i went to give it gas, it had no power and barely made it up this hill on the freeway at 40 mph, from there I made it to about 55mph but everytime i pressed the throttle to a certain point, the truck would shutter. Well this kept getting worse and worse until i was going 15 mph and had to pull over on the side of the road. I let it sit for about 5 minutes, started up just fine and started driving. I made it about 2 miles before i was on the side of the road again. Let it sit for about 15 minutes, pulled my codes from the CEL i got. 172 and 176, Left and right banks too lean.

      After I reset the computer, i was letting it run for a few in the parking lot I noticed it was about to die at 500rpm, but then recovered...I got in the truck and rev'd it...it sounded healthy. I was able to limp it home and it only shuttered slightly, but was able to keep going. It almost seemed like if I took a bump it fixed or made worse the problem.

      What do you guys think this is? I changed the oil yesterday, and then I drove around and did errands for about an hour with no problem in the 108 degree heat. But today I drive to work and i notice shes running a little rough, however I make it to work fine. It was driving home and sitting in traffic where she got angry.
       
    24. Adams95

      Adams95 New Member

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      I just read the other posts you guys made as well and the fuel filter was changed about 2 months ago or 5,000 miles. I dont have access to a fuel pressure gauge, but I can try to get one tomorrow.
       
    25. Adams95

      Adams95 New Member

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      So it's been a tough time for me lately, due to the fact I just started a new job my $$ fund is not so hot and the fuel pressure tester is gonna have to wait till thursday.

      However here's an update of the problem...My friend thought it was the TPS (voltage readings were coming in a bit high), so he bought one from autozone, we swapped it in...now the truck runs even more lean. The only way to truely test is to drive home from work when its 110 degrees outside. When I tried to drive it home...it was pissed. Usually when it keeps losing more and more power, when i shut it off for 5 minutes it'll start right up and be drivable for a little bit. However this time when the truck died, it flat out would not start back up. I had to go back to the truck 3 hours later and limp it home.

      Some things to note:
      1. When you start up the truck it revs upto 2k and slowly drops down to 1k, but once warmed up will hunt between 800-1100 rpm.
      2. When it died yesterday it seemed like the fuel pump, because it didn't just die, it stumbled all the way down and then wouldn't start back up.
      3. If it was a vacuum leak from the intake, could it keep it from starting after it died? and would it show the same systems?
      4. CEL codes have been as follows:
      172
      (R,M)
      Oxygen sensor not switching - system is or was lean - Single, Right or Rear HO2S - Fuel control

      176
      (M)
      Oxygen sensor not switching - system is or was lean Left or Front HO2S - Fuel control

      181
      (M)
      Fuel system was lean at part throttle Single, Right or Rear HO2S - Fuel control

      189
      (M)
      Fuel system was lean at part throttle - Left or Front HO2S - Fuel control


      What do you guys think?
       
    26. ibdranger

      ibdranger New Member

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      Egr?

      Hello.
      Here goes my shot:
      I have 195,000 on my Ranger, OHV, 95 and have done most all of the work on it thru the years. So I am no ace tuner. I redid my intake gaskets, which relieved the high idle, hunt and peck for an rpm. I also found a hairline crack in the exhaust entry portion of the EGR. The pipe thread portion of the EGR had the very small leak, and would let the exhaust pipe give odd readings to the ECM. So those were my cures for a similar problem.
      I would be REALLY curious to see if your egr system is opening and staying all or part way open. My understanding of this system is that it should not be in operation at idle or WOT. If it is stuck open, or partially open, it is almost impossible to start. Or idle smoothly. It might explain lean codes on both banks? I really think that this sounds like your best shot at explaining your motor. At idle the motor should have no vacuum at the egr, and the egr should be closed.
      Hope this helps.
       

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