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  1. reserved50

    reserved50 Well-Known Member

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    obviously:D
     
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  3. Tuscany

    Tuscany Active Member

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    I think if I were you, I would run an open intake and chop off the exhaust, then you'll have a 18 second explorer race car.
     
  4. Napalm

    Napalm Active Member

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    so in the research I've done on that test and that one report- I've not found that replicated anywhere else.

    as I typed earlier there are some very good paper filters out there - don't get me wrong. But not all are made that way - and not all cars are spec'd to have that clean a filter setup.

    There is a test - it's true and that test is followed by quite a few. However GM has their spec, FOrd theirs etc etc. To the best of my knowledge for auto air filters there is not a harmonizing spec for an filter media test except for oil filters.

    Now that said - On a case by case basis I would bet there are many cases where a oil and gauze filter works as good or better that what is normal for the car. I also suspect there is the occasionally case bases where that is not true. Same is probably equally to be said for initial and dirty flow rates.


    Likewise I'd love to see the same style of side by side done on one of these new dry fibre plastic filters.
     
  5. reserved50

    reserved50 Well-Known Member

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    :D perfect, I love speculations off the internet without proof to back them up. So has anyone actually found any gain in mileage in all these years and has been documented, not by just joe blow off the interwebs. I mean actual scientific data in a controlled environment. Just discussing this is chasing your own tail...

    For those that missed the entire point, yes a K&N will suck in more dirt initially, that's why you always buy the "cold air kit", but does the cold air kit gain anything, yes I already have my answer on that, no one knows.

     
  6. Odrapnew

    Odrapnew Active Member

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    The ISO5011 is a universal standard for testing air filters. It provides a direct comparison under the same controlled conditions. K&N states they use ISO5011 for their test standard as well. I have also only seen that one test comparing various name brand auto filters, but know some intricacies of air filters.

    Having worked in the air filtration business, it is known(not speculated) that the K&N is a poor filtration device. It has it's place, but I would not recommend having one of those in your stock daily driver. As we say, it's good for keeping out birds and small children, but not much more.

    For a normal car(lets say factory stock), I cannot think of one instance where a cotton/gauze/oiled filter would significantly out perform an OEM type of dry paper to justify it's use. You may have lower initial restriction, but that only lasts for a short period and most stock vehicles don't benefit from the lower restriction anyway. You may get a HP or 2 at the top end, but normal driving wouldn't really show that improvement. All the while, you're allowing more dust into your engine.

    I know of a company that developed a filter system for the C5 generation Vette that improved power, lowered restriction and increased filtration efficiency with a dry filter, unfortunately it only went as far as testing prototypes.

    A cold air intake may benefit from a cotton/gauze/oil filter because it may be able to take advantage of the lower restriction, but again, at the cost of allowing more dust in.

    Like you, I would like to see some test data on performance dry filters as well to see the pro's and con's.

    If you can't tell, I'm a little passionate about air filters.
     
  7. reserved50

    reserved50 Well-Known Member

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    That's why I buy the largest cone/oiled filter I can fit and never clean it, I think I'm onto 10 years now on one of them. A good idea is to buy the prefilter that covers the cone and wash that every few months and leave the cone filter alone. No, I havent tested it for performance and mileage because its a supercharged 4.6 with 15psi and a stock filter wouldn't work :). I did get it dynod with cutouts and the dynomax quietflow mufflers, the cutouts were worth 20hp at the wheels at 400rwhp on a "mustang" dyno.

     
  8. BlackJac

    BlackJac Active Member

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    Taken from another forum where a SHO owner did some testing at the drag strip. I believe K&N cai has worst than stock times from what I have read from others that have run one at the track, due to the metal intake tube causing heat soak.


    [quote author=SHOnUup link=topic=4705.msg74262#msg74262 date=1429794814]
    Well, I was going to get all technical(or at least try) with this testing, but the GoPro video turned out to reveal no noise difference being noticed...Tablet died due to long day, and grabbing the wrong charger for other tablet, and they all performed so close there isn't much to debate IMO.




    MDesign:




    After receiving the MDesign from Paul (pjw...), I installed it for the week leading up to testing the intakes. Was a slight pain for me to install due to the little to non existent wire play I had with IAT1. I ended up pre mounting the sensor in CAI before hooking up the intake piping. I really didn't like how the sensor just sits in a rubber grommet that is quite loose IMO. Stock and Windstorm boxes both have very sturdy platform for this to mount to and it made me a little uncomfortable. But it held up and performed well.




    Sound: Gave a little more of a whistle sound at low rpm throttle input, but quieted as it ramped up I thought. Could be other noise drowning it out, but not audible to me with windows up at higher speeds.




    Milan Dragway 4-11-15 for DA reference




    2 runs for the MDesign:




    12:33 PM 1:55 PM

    DA at 12:53...342 DA at 1:53....567




    RT +.1097 +.1415

    60 1.7606 1.8210

    330 5.1250 5.2096

    1/8 7.9536 8.0551

    1/8 87.17 mph 86.83 mph

    1000 10.3850 10.4985

    1000 100.52 mph 99.84 mph

    1/4 12.4383 12.5655

    1/4 110.02 mph 108.67 mph




    Stock Box with K&N drop in




    3:26 PM 4:20 PM

    DA at 2:53...621 DA at 3:53....637




    RT +.2489 +.0701

    60 1.8072 1.7760

    330 5.1895 5.1379

    1/8 8.0271 7.9615

    1/8 86.99 mph 87.34 mph

    1000 10.4635 10.3879

    1000 100.50 mph 100.72

    1/4 12.5196 12.4440

    1/4 109.74 mph 109.47







    Windstorm(modded)




    5:23 PM 6:01 PM 6:23 PM

    DA at 4:53....648 DA at 5:53....651 DA....651

    Bad launch(no boost)




    RT +.3605 +.3254 -.0805

    60 2.0127 1.7727 1.7821

    330 5.3936 N/A 5.1612

    1/8 8.2328 7.9577 7.9889

    1/8 86.84 mph 87.65 mph 87.17 mph

    1000 10.6721 10.3781 10.4186

    1000 100.06 mph 100.93 mph 100.49

    1/4 12.7261 12.4211 12.4678

    1/4 109.74 mph 110.28 110.03




    Looking over these times and my slips from last year...the 60' is the main factor that either makes or breaks your run.
    [/quote]

    http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?action=post;quote=74262;topic=4705.0
     
  9. reserved50

    reserved50 Well-Known Member

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    Yea I saw that a while ago, it was a waste of money on the turbo cars by the looks of it. I always wrap metal inlet tubes with 2 layers of header wrap, not sure if that might have helped. The Dodge Hellcat owners also looked into a cold air intake that slowed their vehicles down, it was a funny read.
     
  10. Napalm

    Napalm Active Member

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    oh my 97 buick RIv.

    I made a custom intake mod - not a KN kit or other (they don't exactly exist for a 97 buick Riv. Engine was the 3800 series II, with Supercharger.

    moving to my mod I gained approx 2-3 mpg in my weekly commute. (work and back, stores etc)

    What I did - took the old filter box out - left most of the factory air tube - created a holder - lengthed the tube a bit - placed a moderate sized oval cone filter in a open spot in the fender well. kept the "pods" in the intake tube, kept the tube connection at the TB. Moved the MAF and the IAT probe closer to the filter location (that's a controversial bit right there)

    In my Holden Commodore today I have just a panel filter in a modded box with the stock intake tubing. going from paper to KN - I got 2-3 mpg more out of my weekly commute. Tuned the computer some more - got another 5 mpg. Till they started watering down the gasoline around here with corn squeezings. Bear in mind - most GM V8's run pig rich from the factory.
     
  11. Napalm

    Napalm Active Member

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    I wonder how much of that on the Hellcat has to do with mucking up the tuning of the MAF accuracy under load.

    It's a very fickle thing when dealing with a boosted car. heated wire type Mass Air Flow sensors get hard to calibrate when you start having significant pressures in the "pipe".

    I'm sure Dodge spent plenty of time getting it down - where a CAI maker might muck the works up and not realize it on a test bench.
     
  12. Tuscany

    Tuscany Active Member

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    Modern stock performance intake filters and systems will be tough to match by any aftermarket system.
    On my compound turbo Powerstroke, the stock assembly filter was made by Donaldson, and its flow performance made aftermarket systems unnecessary.

    Ofcourse, the brain processes the look an aftermarket system as "sleek".
    But truth is that the stock system was designed by better engineers, and does a better job of combining of safe filtration with high flow..
     
  13. Odrapnew

    Odrapnew Active Member

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    :thumbsup: :D

    Just to add some additional information regarding fuel mileage, I was able to dig up a couple tests regarding clean and dirty filters and their effect on fuel mileage. I don't think I can post the actual test reports, however, I can give the quick summary of what I found. This isn't comparing a high flow filter vs. a standard, but the results should be similar to a high flow vs. standard and actually the tests below simulated severely clogged filters.

    In a passenger diesel(1 pickup and 2 sedans tested), the clogged filter(vs a clean one) was about even vs a clean filter for fuel efficiency. The truck increased slightly, one of the cars decreased slightly and the other car did not change. These are dyno tests based on couple different test standards for drive cycles. The clogged filter reduced WOT performance(surprise).

    In a passenger gas vehicles(3 different "modern" fuel injected cars), a clogged filter essentially did not affect fuel mileage. Some tests increased mileage with a dirty filter, others decreased(we're talking a +/-0.5-1% difference). Again, the WOT performance diminished and the mileage tests used the same standards as the one above.

    Now, they also tested a carbureted gas vehicle. That one showed about a 2% decrease with a dirty filter....but if you are driving a carbureted vehicle, fuel mileage probably isn't a large concern.

    BTW, when they are talking clogged filters, they are to the point that they are close to damaging the factory filter due to the pressure drop. In a couple instances, they had to "unclog" the filter to prevent it from collapsing during the WOT test.

    Modern fuel injected vehicles are closed loop systems, so they target a specific air fuel ratio all the time under most "normal" driving conditions. This does not mean flooring it every time you take off from a stop light. If you are going WOT after each light, then I could possibly(maybe) see an improvement in mileage, but probably within the variability of the environmental conditions.

    So, summary, a dirty filter does not have a significant effect fuel mileage(under controlled conditions) on fuel injected vehicles, so I would deduce that a high performance filter would not improve mileage. A dirty filter did reduce WOT performance, so I would deduce that a high performance filter may increase performance. The summary from the tests is don't change your filter any more often than recommended unless you need that extra few % of power all the time.
     
  14. reserved50

    reserved50 Well-Known Member

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    :). If later model vehicles would gain even half a mpg with a PROPER redesign of the intake system the manufacturer would have done it. The reason it doesn't matter as much on fuel injected vehicles with a mass air flow sensor is because the vehicle can figure out how much air is coming into the engine (14.7-1), that's why I was mostly concerned with performance (letting in maximum air).

    Any time you change the way air enters the engine past the MAF the computer uses different tables on the ECM and that can have an effect also, need to closely monitor the AFR with a high end sensor and data log it to see if the new cold air kit is what it seems without it altering the fuel ratio if you want to get picky I guess :monkey:.

    On speed density and carb etc vehicles letting in more air just leans it out usually and that's where the gain is.
     
    Last edited: February 27, 2016
  15. Napalm

    Napalm Active Member

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    as I said before - for most non performance marketed cars sound is the number 2 goal in tuning the intake and exhaust.

    and yes I say tuning.

    #1 meet installed power profile

    #2 lower the noise to __________ or till a specific sound profile is managed.

    Performance cars like say a mustang GT or whatever they worry as must about sound as they do power profile - which is often a moving target before the car is launched.
     
  16. 2TimingTom

    2TimingTom Well-Known Member

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    I believe I read this same test.

    Very interesting. Haven't bought a "high flow filter" since.
     
  17. Forddealz

    Forddealz Active Member

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    Do they have K & N air filter for 16 XP available or is it the same as 15's and older years?
     
  18. atth2o

    atth2o New Member

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    12 Explorer K&N Intake kit

    I have a 12 Explorer Limited 3.6. new to the platform. Im a big block Chevy guy but really like the new Ford lines.

    Has anyone put the K&N performance intake kit part # 77-2575KS on the car. Pros and Cons.? Is it worth the mod?
    What are the other performance mods I can do without messing up the warrany.? Tune? Etc
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2016
  19. karlos2

    karlos2 Active Member

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    It can improve throttle response and sound, but hp gain is very minimal.
     
  20. peterk9

    peterk9 Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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    Welcome to the Forum. :wavey:
    Your thread has been merged with this existing one. There is also a thread on the warranty question; http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=442625&highlight=k&n

    Peter
     

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